Jimellow

I was out riding earlier and during the ride up a gradual and reasonably steep hill, a passing car beeped at me. Not the "Heads up, I'm here" beep, but the "Hey asshole, get off the road!" type of beep. It was a two lane road (one lane each direction), and not heavily trafficked. I was hugging the white line/shoulder as well as I could without risking falling off, and the road runs through an area heavily populated by boats, bikers, and people doing leisurely things. In other words, it wasn't a highway.

I'm a very laid back guy, but I flipped the driver off, and upon seeing this in the rearview mirror, the driver stopped the car up the road. I sped up my pedaling pace towards the car, but the driver ultimately drove off without further incident. Flipping him off was a bad idea, I acknowledge that. We all do stupid things at the spur of the moment, and this was one of those things, but I don't think I'm wrong in feeling that the move made by the driver was very brash and inconsiderate.

I don't really understand why some people are so inconsiderate when it comes to sharing the road with bicycles. Throughout the course of my ride today, I probably had fifty to sixty cars pass me at some point without incident, but the one that did was on the road I would suspect to be least likely of such inconsideration. At the time of the incident, the road was empty, literally. There was another biker about 500 yards behind me, and another half a mile up, already cresting the hill. There were no cars and the beeper could easily have gone around me without incident. It's a sweeping, and wide, road and of the roads I was on today, it was easily the least cramped of the bunch.

As someone that enjoys to think things through and ponder, I am curious about why some drivers are so reluctant to share the road with bicyclists. It's difficult enough to hug the white line without ditching your bike off the shoulder, and all the bikers I've seen while driving my car or bike have made the best effort possible to stay near the shoulder and not drive in the middle of the road near traffic. Yet, despite this, it seems car drivers often don't respect, or even acknowledge the presence of bicyclists on the road.

In Pennsylvania, most roads have minimal consideration for bicyclists in the first place. The shoulder is often miniscule, thus putting riders in a dangerous position on the road, and due to the nature of traffic, the shoulders are often filled with glass and other debris that makes riding there hazardous at times. Just yesterday I blew out a tire as a result of riding on the shoulder, but at least such incidents are expected given the nature of debris being pushed to the shoulder throughout the course of heavy traffic. The inconsideration of some car drivers is what I don't really understand, especially given that it doesn't seem like a lot to ask to share the road with someone that is fully exposed to the environment and doing the best they can to not get killed in the process of going for a ride.

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

biznatch

America is a car country. Pedestrians and bicyclists are at the bottom of the food chain, and even motorcyclists don't get much respect.
Just yesterday I was biking back up the hill from grocery shopping, and some kids who seemed to be 17-18 screamed something out the window, going too fast for me to understand, but it sounded something like "bike" and "fag." I just grumbled something in my head about him being lucky enough for daddy to buy him a car (brand new SUV), but people in cars just don't give three shits, in general, about non car drivers.

Some towns are much better designed for bicyclists. Boulder, Co is one of them. Bike tracks everywhere, large bike lanes, etc.
I just wish more towns could be like this.

__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

percy

You will get alot of vehicles who have little or no respect for cyclists. Ignorance at times is hard to accept fro those who choose to portray that attitude.

However, that ignorance or disrespect towards cyclists is also a learned ability. And sometimes warranted. I drive a car, a motorcycle as well as a bicycle and the amount of cyclists out there who have an absolute flagrant disregard for the rules of the road is staggering.

When riding a bicycle, like any other road worthy vehicle, a stop sign means stop, ..not sail through it. Right of way to pedestrians is not only meant for vehicles with a 4 stroke engine....etc etc

Bottom line, there are idiots everywhere using whatever mode of transportation available to them who couldn't care less about anyone but themselves. That's life.

SSJTWIZTA

i guess its a case of drivers thinking along the lines of "im bigger and faster than you, so you need to get the fuck out of my way."

people are assholes.

simple enough.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

flat5

Bikeing may have nothing to do with it.
Some people just release their hostilites when driving.

roachboy

you'd think that towns would at least take care of the large rocks that get pulled out of people's gravel driveways when they pull out--or that people who own the fucking driveways would do it--it's not that hard---but out here in ruralia, it's can be a really unpleasant surprise running into a band of rocks along the shoulder leaving you nowhere to go but out into traffic that's going 50...

anyway, i think the problem is basically a dick thing--sovereign bourgeois travellers going on their desperately important journies do not take kindly to having their Progress interrupted or even slowed down by those of us who ride bikes. whatever. for the most part, i don't care about the problems people in cars might have with bikers.

but i have to say i mind less getting yelled at by idiots in cars than i mind people who talk on their fucking cell phones while driving. this seems the furthest extension of the narcissism of driving, really. most of the more dangerous situations i've found myself in--particularly riding in cities--ave involved people who turn themselves into idiot drivers by blabbing on the phone while they're at the wheel. it seems to me that whether you think of it or not, when you talk on your phone while driving you put people in danger.


as for why that happens--i doubt there's anything like a single answer.

maybe something will come to me.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

spectre

It goes both ways. I've seen bicyclists weaving in and out of traffic, nearly causing accidents, running red lights and stop signs, and just riding as though they can do whatever they want. There have been many near accidents caused by inconsiderate bicyclists. I know that's not true for all and doesn't justify the sort of behavior that you saw, but it does happen pretty frequently.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

QuasiMondo

Funny, I was going to ask why bicyclists don't respect pedestrians. I used to run every morning through Prospect Park. During one morning jog I was nearly run down by a cyclist who then cursed at me for having the audacity of being in his way.

Everybody like to blame drivers, but what about bicyclists who barrel through on red lights through busy intersections? Or dart recklessly in and out of traffic? They can't have it both ways. They want to be given the same amount of courtesy as any other motor vehicle, but act like pedestrians. The stuff they do on the road would lead to a revoked license for any other driver.

I think it's time some of these cyclists take a look in the mirror and realize that their behavior at times is no better than the motorists they despise.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/08/ny...0bridge&st=cse I'm not the only one who feels this way.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

yournamehere

I agree with percy - I respect the right of bicyclists who respect the law, but it bothers me when (a seemingly large amount of) bicyclists want the best of both worlds - they want to be treated as equals on the road; yet demand the same rights as pedestrians, also.

You show me a bicyclist who stops at stop signs, yields when he has a yield sign, rides single-file, and walks his bike across crosswalks; and I'll show you 99 more out of 100 who don't - at least where I live. Your mileage may vary.

As far as the experience of the O.P., I have no problem sharing the road with bicyclists. Sometimes while driving down a 6-lane arterial, though, I have to wonder why they don't use an adjacent parallel local road.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

highthief

Yeah, I agree with this. That's not an excuse for what happened to you. From what you describe, of course the driver was at fault. But driving and working in the big city, I find 8 or 9/10 cyclists have no regard for traffic laws (yet get pissy when a car or pedestrian cuts them off).

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

roachboy

frequently in a city context, aggression keeps you safe. on a bike, you don't have any metal between your skin and the ground, so it pays to be that way---put yourself in the middle of traffic if you're doing to make a turn, etc. if you don't do it, cars will just run you down. so maybe you're confusing aggressive riding--which is forced by cars and how the drivers are--particularly someplace like the loop in chicago (if you aren't aggressive there, you're in trouble)--with something else.

or maybe you don't pay a whole lot of attention to bikers because you like talking on your fucking cellphone. who knows?

strange thing is that most all the bikers i know and have seen respect red lights, crosswalks, etc. in chicago, you have no choice regarding the former, because not doing it will definitely get you killed. it's the same most cities, but chicago drivers are particularly aggro. i've been riding more or less every day for about a decade at this point--it seems to me that if you think most bikers are reckless, chances are you aren't paying attention. maybe you're talking on your cell. who knows?

with crosswalks, i'm not sure what you're talking about. in terms of crossing, i don't see the problems that are metioned above--and i'm one of those people on a bike---i just don't see it. not even at long lights--pederstrians are rarely in any danger from a bike--but bikes can be endangered by pedestrians, who are often pretty arbitrary in their choices about when to cross, they don't necessarily look for bikes. but i doubt there are a whole lot of experienced bikers who don't walk across a crosswalk if they're in one--pushing yourself along on your bike isn't much different, you're just still mounted.

if you ride in a bike lane in a city, you have to continually watch out for pedestrians--again, i've seen very few problems in all the time i've been riding.

of course there are idiots. i dislike when i see these folk--and i have, and do from time to time--because they make things shitty for the rest of us

the exception--places where anarchy seems to reign----mixed-use trails: the lakeshore trail in chicago on a weekend in summer for example. there, the scariest situations do not involve pedestrians but rather bladers--particularly bad bladers--because their movements are arbitrary and they often do not look behind them when they decide it's a great idea to make a cut. same thing in philly on the loop that runs along the schuykill to the art museum. you have to yell alot to warn people you're coming---it's hard not to want to get up a head of steam on a trail because you can't really do it on the streets. i think everyone tends to obliviousness on these trails, for different reasons. but personally i think roller bladers are a menace.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

spectre

Sorry RB, but every day going between work and the train station, I see a biker run a light, cut off a car, or barrel through a group of people walking (this is in the Chicago loop). I've been clipped and nearly hit several times by bikers who didn't respect the traffic signal.

You are right, in some cases, bikers do have to be aggressive not to get overrun, but many take it way too far and are downright dangerous on the road.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

raeanna74

I've not seen a lot of inconsiderate drivers even when I was riding my bicycle almost every day. I think a part of it was that I do as you did, riding in an area that has less motor vehicle traffic. I'm guessing that he 'expected you to move onto the dirt shoulder but unless you had a dirt bicycle that could have caused you an accident. I doubt he did much bicycling.

I must admit that I have been a little inconsiderate myself at times but that's primarily when the bicyclers are riding in the middle of the road, looking oblivious to the traffic behind them that's backing up and acting like they own the road. I've even heard some cyclists with the attitude that motorists should give way to the 100% of the time because the 'ppor cyclists' could get hurt so much more easily. Yes motorists should be careful but also the cyclists should be careful not to hold up traffic or cause motorists to take risks that could cause accidents. For example, when the motorist you encountered, passed you, he could have easily hit an unseen oncoming car that was coming over the hill in front of you. He should not have honked like that though. Just doing so could have startled you into jerking your handbars and sent you flying into the ditch or road in front of him.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

runtuff

Yep this is a car nation, car world for that matter. I'm bigger, yet I'm secretly envious of you are on your bike. Breezing along.

percy

Well, no. I live in Ottawa Canada, which has some of the best bike lanes and paths for cyclists in North America, and I will tell you,...come up here and see for yourself. 9/10 cyclists you will see within 1 minute will break a traffic law,...guaranteed.

Maybe the four feet of the paved road, encased by white lines (bicycle lanes) are not wide enough because most of these idiots bike 2 feet outside of them to the left and almost in the middle of the traffic lane. Sometimes 2 bikers side by side. Special now, aren't we!!

I can also tell you the ratio between cyclists disobeying the rules of the road compared to drivers on cell phones is about 100:1. So maybe cyclists who ride like assholes have cell phone envy, making them not paying attention to their surroundings, but rather completely oblivious to everything in sight.

To those of you who respect and obey the rules of the road, fellow cyclists, motorcyclists and vehicle drivers, keep setting an example with your behaviour. It can be contagious.

roachboy

uh...have you ridden in a bike lane? you'd have to be an idiot to ride to the inside of them if there are parked cars. getting doored is not fun. trust me.

spec: i don't know, maybe things look differently from the sidewalk, or maybe the fact that i rode into the loop every day for 2 years wasn't long enough, but i seriously haven't seen much of what you're talking about. maybe a few who try to jet across an intersection under the mistaken belief they can beat the light--i dunno. groups of pedestrians crossing against a light--that i can kinda understand. but with the light? almost never. not even couriers, who usually get blamed for this sort of stuff.
but the loop is chaos--it's one of the most nerve-wracking places to ride a bike i've ever experienced.

i'm not saying anything never happens, btw--i just haven't seen much of it. nothing like what folk are talking about. and i've never been endangered by another biker--but i cannot tell you how many cars have put me in danger, often significant danger. the way i figure it, if i'm turning and have to get into the outside to do it, i'm going and i really don't care if it slows down drivers. i really don't. you have to act as though most people in cars are not going to see you, that they're potential problems. if you don't do that, you don't ride in busy areas of the city.

come to think of it, i know at least a half dozen friends who have been hit by cars while riding.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

JumpinJesus

I agree that there is a lack of respect for cyclists out there. However I don't believe it's simply a matter of car drivers disrespecting cyclists. It's simply a matter of people not respecting others in general.

With regards to cycling and driving: I used to cycle nearly every day and it reached the point where the stress of getting to the lakeshore almost undid the pleasure of cycling along the lakeshore. While I was never subjected to the kind of hostile treatment that has been described here, I have witnessed other cyclists victim of aggressive and hostile drivers. What eventually stopped me cycling was the theft of my bike.

Having said that, I also have to agree with spectre with regards to cyclists around the downtown area. There seems to be a general snobbery among the cycling elite that seems to emanate from their pores. I see on a daily basis the blatant disregard for traffic laws exhibited by cyclists in the loop. In fact, I will say that I have never, ever seen a cyclist stop at a red light - as is the law. I have never, ever seen a cyclist yield to pedestrians in a crosswalk - as is also the law.

I've been on public transportation where the bus has been forced to slam on its brakes because a cyclist swerved in front of a bus in order to make a right turn.

I feel little sympathy for cyclists who cry foul at drivers when those same cyclists have no respect for pedestrians or the traffic laws to which they are supposed to adhere. Likewise, I sympathize with cyclists who obey the laws of the road and are continually put in danger with impatient or inattentive drivers. The cyclists who ride down Diversey take their lives in their hands as it's a fairly narrow street with a lot of parked cars, a lot of traffic, and little room for error.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

canuckguy

You have to own the lane if your going to be on a busy road. I avoid major road ways, only using when forced (rare) and only use rural roads and less busy area's. When riding on busy road you have to own the lane nearest the shoulder, ride in the wheel rut.

If you don't you risk having drivers pass you full speed with only inches between you. Not good. If you own the lane than you force the drivers to slow down and wait to pass you. I try and think of it as when you were a kid you probably saw alot more tractors on the roads going back and forth between fields. Same thing as i am going the same speed (25-40kmh).

I try and respect the rules of the road but I lack and run lights etc when in non traffic situations. I am trying to stop chasing drivers down who brush me too. we all can be on the roads but some should be avoided due to speeds and traffic. common sense must be used.

highthief

I agree - it's every bit as bad in Toronto (and Montreal and London). Cyclists don't like to slow down or stop - the effort to get going again is something to be avoided. So stop signs and red lights are mere suggestions to many of this lot.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Willravel

As a driver, I do my best, but if you are in the middle of the lane in a 45 zone going 25, you're going to piss me off. And if you throw something at me as I pass, I might decide to run you down. That's something you have to factor in to the equation.

ngdawg

Here as well (New Jersey)
I live in an area that is very busy with people-the majority of whom are immigrants-who ride bicycles and they do not stop for lights(even if opposing green light traffic is in full movement), weave back and forth in traffic and on and off sidewalks, doing this all while fully expecting cars to stop on a dime when they do so.
I have also been on country roads where groups of cyclists will ride two or three abreast and fully expect cars or motorcycles to go around them, even if it means crossing a double yellow to do so. If the road is that narrow, they shouldn't be in that thick of a grouping.

If you really want to see aggressive cyclists, spend a day in Manhattan. Then again, it's survival of the fittest there.

I really think the mentality of many cyclists is no different than that of drivers. Unfortunately, that mentality has taken a nosedive when it comes to respect, following basic rules and using common sense.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Poppinjay

Northern Virginia has *the* worst bicyclers. When they're in traffic, they assume the part of any other vehicle and take up as much space as a car. But come a red light, all of a sudden they become pedestrians and weave through stopped traffic to run the light.

There are multi-use paths all over this area, but that's not quite enough. Those are only for convenience should a stop sign be in the way on the road.

And I say this as a cyclist.

Hutchinson, Kansas is the worst town to be a cyclist in. Full of rednecks, half educated and underemployed, they take out their anger on cyclists. I've had cigarettes pitched at me, a carload of thugs tried to remove me from bike (they were involved in a club shooting the very next week), and one shirtless, messed up hair, cheek full of tobacco redneck just openly laughed at me for being on a bicycle. I wasn't wearing spandex and had a shirt on, and he was laughing at me.

I hate Kansas.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

The_Jazz

This is what I was here to say and JJ, you just beat me too it and said it well.

We've all been assholes at some point, and sometimes we expect that the rules don't apply to us because of our particular situation. It would be nice to say that we all follow the law 100% of the time, but we all know that's just not true.

Back in the day, I ran a lot. I've run in rural Iowa and only had 2 incidents involving aggressive drivers (one of which almost evolved into a fight). I've run in Southern California with no incidents beyonds being heckled by some kids. I've been hit by cars once in Tennessee (7 stitches) and Illinois (twice, both with cars coming out of alleys) and by a bike once in Illinois (he definitely got the worst of it since I ran on and he took an ambulance to the hospital with at least a broken collarbone). Of those 6 incidents, I was at fault twice (I was being a dickhead in IA and I was jaywalking in TN). In all of them, I was insanely lucky I wasn't injured or injured more seriously. One of the reasons that I wasn't is that I always try to be aware of my surroundings, even when I'm in the middle of nowhere or if I'm behind the wheel.

Pedestrians in a cross-walk ALWAYS have the right of way, especially if there's no light (in Illinois anyway - your state may be different but probably not). There are no exceptions. If they're off the sidewalk and in the cross-walk, you have to stop, whether you're on a bike or in a car. I'll admit that I don't always stop at stop signs when I'm on my bike, but I do if there's another car in the intersection. And having been in the receiving end, I make damn sure I know where the bikers are when I'm driving or getting ready to get out of my parallel-parked car.

I can only be responsible for me. If others on the road can't do the same, I just make note of them and stay as far aways as possible. And I avoid as many surprises as possible.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Jimellow

I definitely agree that it comes down more to the person than the vehicle they happen to be driving/riding.

I've noticed that driving on the shoulder/white line can result in overthinking and even sudden moves when I know a car is behind me, and thus I don't take issue at all with a concerned beep that lets me know a car is coming up on me. When riding, I'm generally staying in a very tight area, and I'm quite good at not weaving all over the place, but other drivers don't know this; they are likely seeing me on the road for the first time. If I do swerve a bit out, that could spook them and cause them to overreact, even though I'm pretty good at correcting myself and staying straight.

I've also found that looking back over the shoulder to check for traffic often results in my body following, resulting in a slight swerve, which can be troubling if there is in fact a car coming up behind me. One of the guys at the bike shop I go to has mirrors that attach to to the bottom of his handlebar grips (Google search result example: http://www.aspirevelotech.com/Listings/Mirror.htm) and he's said these mirrors have saved his life a few times on the road.

There is a multi-path use I was on yesterday in the earlier portion of my ride, and those can be tricky, as you often have families on bikes, people walking, and runners. I'm very respectful of others when I ride, but even then, a kid riding with his family can swerve suddenly or cause a potential incident, so it's best to be careful in general.

Country roads are great to ride on, and while they do have less traffic, they also tend to have less shoulder, more blind turns, less visibility and thus just as much risk of accident. I guess the key is to just be as safe and considerate as possible and hope for the best. They're called accidents for a reason, but it's certainly possible to reduce the chances of one occurring.

I think it would be nice if people had a more open mind and put themselves in the shoes of others while on the road. When driving in an urban environment, I've had cars follow behind me on stretches of road without any parked cars, only to have them pass me when I get to an area with cars parked along the curb. I can't help but imagine myself driving into an recently opened car door, and this train of thought is generally followed by images of how badly I'd be hurt when this in fact happened. One of the images that is stuck in my head, likely until the day I die, is of a UCI Pro Tour cyclist riding down a cobblestone hill in the Gent-Wevelgem race only to fall directly on his face and be mangled, badly. If nothing else, it motivates me to drive as safely as possible so that I minimize the odds of myself being involved in such an accident; though I don't see myself driving on cobblestones any time soon.

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

MSD

Cyclists and drivers have to come to an understanding. I give cyclists a wide berth, and I wait for a safe time and give them a quick tap of the horn to let them know I'm going to pass. Most cyclists keep in the shoulder when possible and make themselves as little of an inconvenience to traffic when there's no option but to use a lane (which they have every legal right to do.)

Some drivers think bikes should stay off the road, and a noticeable number of cyclists feel no obligation to follow traffic laws. I suspect that if asshole drivers were given bicycles and forced to ride, they would blow red lights and keep a pocketful of rocks to throw at bad drivers. Similarly, I suspect that these cyclists who ride like jackasses would be the drivers in the 3-ton SUV or bright red sports car weaving through traffic, speeding, and treating the first five seconds of the red light like it's still yellow. There's a superiority/inferiority complex duality between the two because of the size, power, and safety imbalance between cars and bikes. In the end, I think people just need to chill out, leave ten minutes early so they have a buffer, and show a bit of courtesy toward fellow road-goers.

percy

These are guidelines for people using the recreational paths in my neck of the woods.(Ottawa Canada)

http://www.canadascapital.ca/bins/nc...&lang=1&bhcp=1

Cyclists posting vehicles parked in bike lanes

Cars parked illegally in bike lanes in Ottawa tagged as ottawa on - MyBikeLane.com

The law (according to Ministry of Transportation in Ontario Canada)

Cycling Skills - 5) Cycling and The Law

filtherton

All this talk of laws is irrelevant. Traffic laws only apply when there is a cop around. I think most drivers/cyclists follow the golden rule and the ones who don't are the same ones who are typically referred to as assholes.

Jinn

I must be one of those inconsiderate motorists out there. If there isn't a specific 'bike lane' on the road, I don't think a bicycle should be out there on it. Roadways are for MOTORIZED vehicles. If I had a dime for every time someone on a bicycle road in front of me doing 25 under the speed limit, I'd be giving Gates a run for his money.

As a motorcycle rider myself, it's already dangerous enough when you've got an engine under you to get out of harm's reach. The solution is more bike lanes, not cars and bicycles learning to share the road. They shouldn't be. Bicycles need to get off my fuckin road!

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

percy

There has been some talk (and really nothing but talk up to this point) about cyclists becoming licensed and requiring insurance. So far the idea is a no go, especially among cyclists for obvious reasons

MSD

Unfortunately for you, the law contradicts your opinion in most of the US.

The_Jazz

Let me remove all doubt from your mind: YOU ARE AN INCONSIDERATE - AND DANGEROUS - MOTORIST. If that's your usual attitude while driving anyway. The rule of the road is that any vehicle that can legally be on that road (in other words, excluding dumbass bikers that think they can be on an interstate) has to share the road with other vehicles. If they're street-legal, then they're all equall in the eyes of the law.

There are inconsiderate bikers and inconsiderate drivers. I try to never be either, although I don't always succeed at that.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

samcol

I agree. If it's a road where the bike can't maintain the posted speed limit or there's no bike lane or shoulder, then bikes shouldn't be there. It's dangerous for everyone not just the biker. This goes for many moped riders as well. Both bikes and mopeds ride this grey area between following traffic laws and following the 'pedestrian right of way'.

---------- Post added at 05:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------

Who's more inconsiderate and dangerous: the 99% of people on the road who are motorists, or the 1% of bikers slowing everyone else down and creating even more dangerous situations than already exists on the road.

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

StanT

I live at 8500' above Boulder, CO. My commute time in the winter is 30-35 min. In the summer, it can double due to recreational bicyclists that just can't comprehend that "share the road" applies to them, too. Despite signs everywhere stating "single file law applies", they ride 2 and 3 accross. We are talking about a winding canyon road that has a single passing zone in 15 miles. Even after the county widened the road to install a bicycle lane uphill, groups opt not to use it forcing all traffic to cross a double yellow line around blind corners to get by.

If bicycles are out, I am generally on a motorcycle, rather than a car. Even then, the bicycles are hard to miss. I've been clipped twice while passing them within a foot of the center line. Honestly, you'd think that if I can control an 800# motorcycle and keep it within a foot or so of the center line, a bicycle could manage to stay within the other 8'. In a few cases, I've used the bicycle lane to pass groups, where it seemed that their intent was to specifically block me.

I'm courteous if the bicyclists are, as well. 90% of the time, this is the case. However, I have no choice but to commute this path to work.

kutulu

I saw some old dude on a bike (riding opposite the direction of travel) the other day get all butthurt that a car was blocking the sidewalk. I my younger days I would have let the guy know that (1) he was riding the wrong direction and (2) he's not supposed to be riding on the sidewalk in the first place.

The_Jazz

If the motorists aren't following the rule of the road, then the motorists. If the bikers aren't by riding 2 or more across, then the bikers. And if a runner is on the same road and is following the same rule (only facing traffic), then he's got just as much right as everyone else to be out there. Being in a car in no way grants special rights, which is, of course, what you're claiming here. Surprise! You don't have any. Just like the bikers. Everyone is equal.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

xuvio38

~~~~~

FoolThemAll

Eh. I don't often see bicyclists adhering to the same speed range. As someone who biked frequently back in Michigan and has yet to drive since moving to Seattle, I really don't understand the idea of bikes and motor frickin' vehicles sharing the same lanes. I know it's widespread, I know it's accepted, it still strikes me as insane.

One more vote for Jinn's view.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

The_Jazz

FTA - I didn't say that it makes sense or is even the best thing, but that is the law most places. On local roads and state highways (assuming that they aren't a part of an interstate highway or subject to specific local laws) there is no minimum speed limit. There is, though, a maximum speed limit. Although it is almost the universal practice, you are not required to travel at the maximum speed limit, regardless of the vehicle. Again, motor vehicle drivers don't have special rules.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

roachboy

yeah, in the end it doesn't matter what you do and do not understand--it doesn't matter if you like the fact there are bikers or not---99% of drivers seem to be able to navigate the complexity of seeing a bike and not doing anything stupid because their Sovereign Bourgeois Progress is inflected thereby. you have to deal with it, just like people like me have to deal with you.

i'm getting more interested in returning to the question in the op though--so far we see that there are frictions between drivers and cyclists (and runners)--but there's no real exploration of why that is the case. i find it curious that, for example, folk point to bikers "not obeying the rules"---which in all probability you do not entirely adhere to yourself (like speeding or driving while buzzed or without a seatbelt or while talking on your cellphone)---but when it comes to bikes, folk are suddenly Great Upholders of the Sanctity of the Rules. why is that?

for myself, alot of the attitude i've developed comes just from people doing little things that in another space probably would have meant nothing, but which happened in a place that endangered my life in some cases (nearly getting crushed by cars, getting bumped by them while riding, getting doored, hundreds of near misses). trying to get through areas on a weekend night that are full with drunken stupid people can also be a great delight. nothing better than bottles being thrown at you or ultra-erratic driving to perk a boy right up. but most of this follows from being in a vulnerable position.

but it reinforces the broader position i have that the decision in american city planning to open urban spaces up for automobile traffic in the way that happened after world war 2 was a terrible one. there's no reason people should drive into or out of a city for the most part. more public transit=more better. more bikes=more better. think of the amount of dead space created by asphalt lines drawn back and forth across a cityscape. think of the environmental consequences of the traffic. the diminuition of the quality of life caused directly and indirectly by traffic. the expense of maintaining infrastructure. all so the suburbanites can get into and out of the giant mall that is a city.

i'm not advocating a total driving ban--but rather a rethink of the dominant transportation model in urban regions---not just cities, but in the regions that interact with urban centers---abandoning this silly town model, moving toward regional ones.

and i'm not arguing that everyone should ride a bike either. the only reason i do it is that i enjoy it. nothing principled about it really. i'd just rather not be taking my life into my hands when i do it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

As a heavy user of public transportation, everyday pedestrian, and occasional cyclist, I agree with you for the most part, roachboy. Larger cities especially would thrive more if they found a way to further open up safer channels for non-automotive traffic. I, for one, would ride my bike far more if I didn't feel like I were risking my life and limb for a simple 15-minute journey. I'd go as far as 30 minutes to 45 minutes easily if I felt it was reasonably safe.

I'm a by-the-book kind of guy when it comes to traffic rules, and I seriously think there are a good number of cyclists and drivers alike that need to wake the fuck up and realize they're within a society, not on a Kessel Run.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot