Always resist sexual battery if you are stronger ? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Jan71 · 12-05-2008, 11:43 AM

I just read a thread (in this forum):

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ml#post2569130

And since this is a variation of the topic, i decide to start a new thread.
I remember a sexual battery (not rape) case a few years ago. A female jogger got stopped by two young boys. She did not physically resist the attack and she managed to talk her way out of the situation. She later admitted that she could have fought her way out, but was afraid to harm the boys. Well the police called her brave, and there was no one who questioned her decision to not fight the attack off. Shouldn't she have physical resisted the attack?

So what if a guy got stopped by the "Broitzman gang" ? If he acted like the female jogger he probably would have been sentenced. If he used force he would have been sentenced for violence.

genuinegirly · 12-05-2008, 11:48 AM

I fail to see what a male jogger would be sentenced for if he talked himself out of an uncomfortable situation with a gang of young homosexual men.

I seem to be missing the gist of what you're asking here. Is there a news article you could point me to, or describe the situation a bit more?

telekinetic · 12-05-2008, 12:03 PM

what are you asking again? Unless I'm confused, you're asking is it illegal for a man to not resist being sexually assaulted by teenage girls? Or rather, is it a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation? O_o Not sure I follow.

.........Also not sure who'd report it if it WERE illegal....

Lasereth · 12-05-2008, 12:06 PM

I think the OP is saying if a male was stopped by a group of teenage girls and they tried to sexually assault him, if he used force in self defense, he'd be in trouble in court. Yet if a female was sexually assaulted, and she used physical self defense, she wouldn't get in trouble in court. Am I right?

Strange Famous · 12-05-2008, 12:10 PM

As long as the level of self defence is reasonable - I cannot see there would be any difference. But the situation of a gang of young girls attacking an sexually molesting a male jogger doesnt exist outside of the imagination of Benny Hill.

telekinetic · 12-05-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

But the situation of a gang of young girls attacking an sexually molesting a male jogger doesnt exist outside of the imagination of Benny Hill.

Great, now I have a mental picture of a male jogger getting rubbed on by a gang of teenage girls played in fast-motion to the tune of yakety sax stuck in my head.

World's King · 12-05-2008, 12:20 PM

Self-defense is self-defense. No matter what.

Although I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why I would want to fight off a group of teenage girls that wanted to have sex with me...

SecretMethod70 · 12-05-2008, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

As long as the level of self defence is reasonable - I cannot see there would be any difference. But the situation of a gang of young girls attacking an sexually molesting a male jogger doesnt exist outside of the imagination of Benny Hill.

It's true. Girls are sunshine and lollipops after all. A gang of girls would never do something violent, like blow up a freaking HOUSE.

Willravel · 12-05-2008, 12:29 PM

I don't get the "Broitzman gang" reference.

If women came to me with the intention of sexing me up without my permission, I'd simply walk away. There are some women with the ability to kick my ass, but the truth is that they're probably not rapists.

If men wanted to rape me, I'd run.

SecretMethod70 · 12-05-2008, 12:29 PM

And a gang of girls sexually assaulting someone is totally unheard of.

Baraka_Guru · 12-05-2008, 12:30 PM

The situation in the OP might seem implausible, merely because the typical tactics of female perpetrators differ slightly from male perpetrators of sexual assault.

Quote:

Debunking the myth

In reality [...] research has long shown that substantial numbers of men are subjected to the sexually aggressive behavior of female strangers, acquaintances and lovers.

Over a decade ago, Dr. Struckman-Johnson found that 16% of a sample of 268 men at a small Midwestern university reported that they had been forced to have sexual intercourse on a date. A bit later she and Dr. David Struckman-Johnson reported that 30% of another sample of 204 college men had experienced an incident of pressured or forced sexual contact with a female perpetrator. For 20% of the men, the incident resulted in sexual intercourse. In yet another survey, 43% of 318 men reported having had at least one coercive sexual experience with a woman since the age of 16, culminating in sexual intercourse for 27% of the men (Anderson and Struckman-Johnson, 1998).

Other researchers have found the same thing. One study found that 24% of 171 men at an Eastern college had been coerced into sexual intercourse. Another found that 24% of a sample of 182 college men in California had unwanted sex with an insistent woman in the past five years. In a survey of two Canadian universities, 24% of 156 men had experienced some type of sexual coercion in heterosexual dating. Among a sample of 165 fraternity men at a Western college, 21% experienced unwanted sexual contact.

How does it happen?

How does a woman accomplish sexual coercion of an adolescent or adult male? The Struckman-Johnsons do an excellent job of laying out the dynamics:

... women are most likely to use psychological pressure such as verbal pleading and arguments, emotional blackmail, and deception. Another common approach of sexually aggressive women is to take advantage of a man's intoxicated state. A typical scenario, according to male victims, involves a predatory woman who encounters an inebriated man (or contributes to his drinking) and pursues him until he falls asleep or passes out. The woman then manually or orally stimulates him to erection and mounts him for sexual intercourse.

Sexually aggressive women only occasionally resort to force tactics, which we define as intimidation with size, threats of harm including blackmail, physical restraint, physical harm or use of a weapon. In our surveys, about 12% or less of male victims reported that a woman used force against them, but in most cases, the force was not extreme. Women locked men into cars, blocked their retreat from a room, grabbed at them, threw them down on beds and floors, sat on them, and tied them up. In some instances, women pinched, slapped and hit men who tried to stop their advances. A few men reported that women blackmailed them into having sex by threatening to divulge damaging information to parents, employers or girlfriends. [...article continues....]

MenWeb - Dating Violence: Men's Reactions to Female Sexual Coercion

But given the situation provided in the OP, reasonable physical resistance should be fine. Most men need to bear in mind that they are quite a bit stronger than many women.

Jan71 · 12-05-2008, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I think the OP is saying if a male was stopped by a group of teenage girls and they tried to sexually assault him, if he used force in self defense, he'd be in trouble in court. Yet if a female was sexually assaulted, and she used physical self defense, she wouldn't get in trouble in court. Am I right?

Yes, exactly.

Well i wanted to point out how much gender has to say in sex cases.

And the case with the female jogger should she have faced charges ? The papers and the police newer questioned her behavior (since she was a female). I don't remember the details but she was a tall athlete and she was reluctant to fight because of the boys young age (she was sure that she was stronger). So she let the situation continue for several minutes with out any physical resistance.After a while they left, she claimed that she talked her way of of the situation. Chance are that the boys was chocked of her behavior and left because of this.

So should she have faced prosecution (if we presume she was stronger) ?

If the jogger was mail and met the Broitzman girl gang and acted as she did, would he faced prosecution ?

Willravel · 12-05-2008, 12:52 PM

He may have faced battery charges, yes. And hes' that's an example of gender inequality in law.

Of course it's also gender equality in society and biology. Let's not forget that the average man is stronger than the average woman, and rape is substantially more likely to be a man raping a woman, not the other way around.

What I'm waiting for it the day that roving gangs of female supermodels go around raping 25 year old male brunettes in San Jose. Patiently waiting.

World's King · 12-05-2008, 12:55 PM

I don't get it...

You know what the stupid thing is... They guys that say they where sexual assaulted by a woman are lying. Especially college age guys. Especially DRUNK college age guys.

Let me lay out the scenario for you...

Group of guys go to a bar on a Friday night. Throw back a few drinks, do some shots, maybe smoke a little weed... Start dancing... We've all been in a situation like that. One guys sees an attractive girl. He's feeling good. He's had like 12 vodka Redbulls. Walks up to her. They start talking. Now, what he doesn't know is that she just found out that her boyfriend was cheating on her so she has decided to get back at him by hooking up with some random guy. Night winds down and the two end up back at her place. They're making out... things are going good. He's being the sensitive guys. He's making sure she's okay. Asking if things are moving to fast. They end up in the bedroom... She starts to undress him... And still being the nice guy he's tries to stop her. Saying maybe they should wait. He doesn't mean anything that he's saying. And if things could go his way he would already be gone after her blowing him on the car ride over. But because he's afraid that if he's at all aggressive, it will freak her out and she'll stop...

So the next day... He's hanging out with all his buddies. He's telling them that she totally just gave up the pussy. Like he had her bent over the hood of his car in the parking lot. Came in her hair... fucked her roommate... recorded the whole thing... is selling the tapes...

Then about a week later this surveyor stops him on his way to "College Bullshit 101" and asks him if he's ever been forced to have sex with a woman. So he tells this story about a girl he met that forced him to come home with her and tore his clothes off while he was trying to stop her and that he now has herpes and her dog licked his balls... and it has really tormented him and that he is now thinking about going into the Priesthood...

Sorry... I had too much coffee this morning.

SecretMethod70 · 12-05-2008, 01:06 PM

It seems there's a bit of a language barrier here

What could she have faced charges for if she just talked her way out of the situation?

Daniel_ · 12-05-2008, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by World's King

I don't get it...

You know what the stupid thing is... They guys that say they where sexual assaulted by a woman are lying. Especially college age guys. Especially DRUNK college age guys.

Let me lay out the scenario for you...

Group of guys go to a bar on a Friday night. Throw back a few drinks, do some shots, maybe smoke a little weed... Start dancing... We've all been in a situation like that. One guys sees an attractive girl. He's feeling good. He's had like 12 vodka Redbulls. Walks up to her. They start talking. Now, what he doesn't know is that she just found out that her boyfriend was cheating on her so she has decided to get back at him by hooking up with some random guy. Night winds down and the two end up back at her place. They're making out... things are going good. He's being the sensitive guys. He's making sure she's okay. Asking if things are moving to fast. They end up in the bedroom... She starts to undress him... And still being the nice guy he's tries to stop her. Saying maybe they should wait. He doesn't mean anything that he's saying. And if things could go his way he would already be gone after her blowing him on the car ride over. But because he's afraid that if he's at all aggressive, it will freak her out and she'll stop...

So the next day... He's hanging out with all his buddies. He's telling them that she totally just gave up the pussy. Like he had her bent over the hood of his car in the parking lot. Came in her hair... fucked her roommate... recorded the whole thing... is selling the tapes...

Then about a week later this surveyor stops him on his way to "College Bullshit 101" and asks him if he's ever been forced to have sex with a woman. So he tells this story about a girl he met that forced him to come home with her and tore his clothes off while he was trying to stop her and that he now has herpes and her dog licked his balls... and it has really tormented him and that he is now thinking about going into the Priesthood...

Sorry... I had too much coffee this morning.

Really?

World's King · 12-05-2008, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel_

Really?

Yes to the too much coffee.

No to everything else...

Jan71 · 12-05-2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

It seems there's a bit of a language barrier here

What could she have faced charges for if she just talked her way out of the situation?

Because there was a sexual interaction between the boys and the woman (not intercourse). And she could have stopped it physically at a early stage, and since she didn't, isn't that consent ?

Well if a guy tried anything like that, he's motives would have been questioned.

SecretMethod70 · 12-05-2008, 02:22 PM

Ok, I misunderstood. I thought she just talked her way out of it, I didn't realize she gave in to a certain extent in order to avoid anything worse. In that case, yes, I think it is possible a man would be charged in a similar situation. Likely even.

Strange Famous · 12-05-2008, 02:30 PM

the point is what is reasonable self defence.

if we accept this ridiculous scenario for the sake of argument:

If a female jogger was confronted by two adolescent boys who attempted to attack her, reasonable self defence would be any action necessary to place the two boys unconscious, but if she struck further blows after they were unconscious this would be beyond self defence.

If a male jogger was confronted by two adolescent girls who attempted to attack him (supposing such a crazy thing could happen), the level of self defence which would be legitimate would be relative to his strength and masculinity in comparison to the girls - so it would be legitimate to perhaps push them away or hold their arm if they attempted to strike him but to strike back would be in most cases beyond reasonable self defence.

I am not making a joke out of it, but the difference in strength between a grown man and a teenage girl is in most cases enormous.

SecretMethod70 · 12-05-2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

the point is what is reasonable self defence.

I am not making a joke out of it, but the difference in strength between a grown man and a teenage girl is in most cases enormous.

For once I agree.

12-05-2008, 11:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
Jan71 Upright Location: Europe	Always resist sexual battery if you are stronger ? I just read a thread (in this forum): http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ml#post2569130 And since this is a variation of the topic, i decide to start a new thread. I remember a sexual battery (not rape) case a few years ago. A female jogger got stopped by two young boys. She did not physically resist the attack and she managed to talk her way out of the situation. She later admitted that she could have fought her way out, but was afraid to harm the boys. Well the police called her brave, and there was no one who questioned her decision to not fight the attack off. Shouldn't she have physical resisted the attack? So what if a guy got stopped by the "Broitzman gang" ? If he acted like the female jogger he probably would have been sentenced. If he used force he would have been sentenced for violence. Last edited by little_tippler; 12-06-2008 at 04:22 AM.. Reason: link fixed

12-05-2008, 11:48 AM	#2 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	I fail to see what a male jogger would be sentenced for if he talked himself out of an uncomfortable situation with a gang of young homosexual men. I seem to be missing the gist of what you're asking here. Is there a news article you could point me to, or describe the situation a bit more? __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

12-05-2008, 12:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
telekinetic zomgomgomgomgomgomg Location: Fauxenix, Azerona	what are you asking again? Unless I'm confused, you're asking is it illegal for a man to not resist being sexually assaulted by teenage girls? Or rather, is it a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation? O_o Not sure I follow. .........Also not sure who'd report it if it WERE illegal.... __________________ twisted no more

12-05-2008, 12:06 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	I think the OP is saying if a male was stopped by a group of teenage girls and they tried to sexually assault him, if he used force in self defense, he'd be in trouble in court. Yet if a female was sexually assaulted, and she used physical self defense, she wouldn't get in trouble in court. Am I right? __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

12-05-2008, 12:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	As long as the level of self defence is reasonable - I cannot see there would be any difference. But the situation of a gang of young girls attacking an sexually molesting a male jogger doesnt exist outside of the imagination of Benny Hill. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-05-2008, 12:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Self-defense is self-defense. No matter what. Although I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why I would want to fight off a group of teenage girls that wanted to have sex with me... __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

12-05-2008, 12:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I don't get the "Broitzman gang" reference. If women came to me with the intention of sexing me up without my permission, I'd simply walk away. There are some women with the ability to kick my ass, but the truth is that they're probably not rapists. If men wanted to rape me, I'd run.

12-05-2008, 12:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	And a gang of girls sexually assaulting someone is totally unheard of. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 12-05-2008 at 12:34 PM..

12-05-2008, 12:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	He may have faced battery charges, yes. And hes' that's an example of gender inequality in law. Of course it's also gender equality in society and biology. Let's not forget that the average man is stronger than the average woman, and rape is substantially more likely to be a man raping a woman, not the other way around. What I'm waiting for it the day that roving gangs of female supermodels go around raping 25 year old male brunettes in San Jose. Patiently waiting.

12-05-2008, 12:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I don't get it... You know what the stupid thing is... They guys that say they where sexual assaulted by a woman are lying. Especially college age guys. Especially DRUNK college age guys. Let me lay out the scenario for you... Group of guys go to a bar on a Friday night. Throw back a few drinks, do some shots, maybe smoke a little weed... Start dancing... We've all been in a situation like that. One guys sees an attractive girl. He's feeling good. He's had like 12 vodka Redbulls. Walks up to her. They start talking. Now, what he doesn't know is that she just found out that her boyfriend was cheating on her so she has decided to get back at him by hooking up with some random guy. Night winds down and the two end up back at her place. They're making out... things are going good. He's being the sensitive guys. He's making sure she's okay. Asking if things are moving to fast. They end up in the bedroom... She starts to undress him... And still being the nice guy he's tries to stop her. Saying maybe they should wait. He doesn't mean anything that he's saying. And if things could go his way he would already be gone after her blowing him on the car ride over. But because he's afraid that if he's at all aggressive, it will freak her out and she'll stop... So the next day... He's hanging out with all his buddies. He's telling them that she totally just gave up the pussy. Like he had her bent over the hood of his car in the parking lot. Came in her hair... fucked her roommate... recorded the whole thing... is selling the tapes... Then about a week later this surveyor stops him on his way to "College Bullshit 101" and asks him if he's ever been forced to have sex with a woman. So he tells this story about a girl he met that forced him to come home with her and tore his clothes off while he was trying to stop her and that he now has herpes and her dog licked his balls... and it has really tormented him and that he is now thinking about going into the Priesthood... Sorry... I had too much coffee this morning. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

12-05-2008, 01:06 PM	#15 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	It seems there's a bit of a language barrier here What could she have faced charges for if she just talked her way out of the situation? __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

12-05-2008, 02:22 PM	#19 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Ok, I misunderstood. I thought she just talked her way out of it, I didn't realize she gave in to a certain extent in order to avoid anything worse. In that case, yes, I think it is possible a man would be charged in a similar situation. Likely even. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

12-05-2008, 02:30 PM	#20 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	the point is what is reasonable self defence. if we accept this ridiculous scenario for the sake of argument: If a female jogger was confronted by two adolescent boys who attempted to attack her, reasonable self defence would be any action necessary to place the two boys unconscious, but if she struck further blows after they were unconscious this would be beyond self defence. If a male jogger was confronted by two adolescent girls who attempted to attack him (supposing such a crazy thing could happen), the level of self defence which would be legitimate would be relative to his strength and masculinity in comparison to the girls - so it would be legitimate to perhaps push them away or hold their arm if they attempted to strike him but to strike back would be in most cases beyond reasonable self defence. I am not making a joke out of it, but the difference in strength between a grown man and a teenage girl is in most cases enormous. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas