Thugs in school - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sixate · 06-26-2003, 12:23 PM

LINKY

Quote:

Thugs in school

Marc Epstein teaches history at Jamaica High School in Queens, N.Y. He wrote the summer 2003 issue of Education Next's feature story, titled "Security Detail." If an American, who passed away as late as 1960, were somehow resurrected, he'd probably think Epstein fabricated the story. Unfortunately, the story is true for too many of America's schools.

Jamaica High School, with a student body of 2,500, has eight deans, Epstein being one of them. Student discipline occupies much of their time. The school has an assistant principal for security, and two secretaries and a school aide assigned to the dean's office. There are 10 school security agents assigned by the New York Police Department to patrol Jamaica High School's halls; there're more when there's random scanning of students for weapons. At least $1 million is budgeted for school safety, and that excludes the cost of the 10 security agents paid by the police department.

Epstein's story samples a number of school incidents. A teacher saw a student take a gun from his locker to show other students. The security agent was informed and did nothing. Epstein searched for the student, but he had fled the building. When the student returned, he denied possession of the gun. He was searched by the police, who found nothing. After an investigation, which consumed a couple thousand dollars worth of personnel hours, a hearing officer transferred the student to another school.

A learning-disabled student, denied a hall pass, called his teacher a crippled bitch and threw an object at her. A security agent who witnessed the incident removed the student. At the student's hearing, a man appearing on behalf of the student's mother asked the teacher, "Do you consider yourself crippled, because if you do, then you are in fact a crippled bitch and the charges ought to be dropped." Because of the protections of federal special education law, the student was permitted to return to the school immediately.

Epstein says court decisions and school regulations have made schools a safe haven for dangerous criminals. Schools must admit young people convicted of serious felonies, such as armed robbery.

The teacher's union is part of the problem, as well. During the 1990s, the United Federation of Teachers deemed that forcing teachers to supervise home rooms was unprofessional. Through contract negotiations, this method of student control was abolished. UFT also argued that it was unprofessional for teachers to have cafeteria supervisory duties; they were replaced by school aides. The cafeteria quickly became student gang turf, where fights and other disorderly behavior became routine. School aides are easily intimidated by students, and for fear of retaliation, they rarely confront gang-affiliated students.

According to an August 2002 Department of Education report, "School Crime Patterns," "High schools with the highest levels of violence tended to be located in urban areas and have a high percentage of minority students (black and Hispanic), compared to high schools that reported no crime to the police." The report also said that 60 percent of violent school crimes occur in 4 percent of the nation's high schools.

Is there a sane reason for today's adults tolerating student behavior unimaginable 50 years ago? Don't try the poverty excuse. I attended Philadelphia's Benjamin Franklin High School from 1950 to 1954, along with students who, myself included, were among the poorest of the city's poor. Yes, there was the occasional after-school fight, with fists, but I can't recall a single incident of a student cursing or assaulting a teacher.

What to do? It's a no-brainer. Students who are alien and hostile to the education process ought to be removed.

You say, "What will we do with them?" I say that's a secondary issue. The first priority is to stop thugs from making education impossible for everyone else.

I agree with this guy. Get rid of kids that cause trouble.
Who gives a shit where they go. They bring down the entire educational system and make it impossible for teachers to do their jobs. How can you expect a kid to behave at school when he/she doesn't behave at home or listen to their parents. Get rid of some kids to help the kids that want to learn.

Realizm · 06-26-2003, 12:32 PM

Need to boot those kids out and teach them some proper behavior. If they can't adhere to the standard, bye bye birdy.

The_Dude · 06-26-2003, 12:32 PM

get rid of 'em

my high school sounds like heaven compared to that

Xios · 06-26-2003, 12:33 PM

You feel exactly the same way that I do about this issue. Honestly, if a student doesn't pay attention in school and cares more about fighting or whatever the hell they are doing, then they are not going to be a productive member of society and should then be taken out of it! It is not the teachers jobs to babysit students, however, students should not have to fear going to school, so we can create a balance by removing these unproductive students from the schools.

Mad_Gecko · 06-26-2003, 12:37 PM

What then do we do with all these uneducated louts?

Admittedly its better than having educated louts..... I am one!

Army, Jail, Gangs??? I don't believe we solve the problem, unfortunately I don't have the answer.

bartgroks · 06-26-2003, 12:53 PM

I agree that criminals should be removed from Institutions of learning but I dont think we can really not be concerned with where they go from there.

Does anyone remember the recent case in New York where a 10 year old male lured a 2 year old boy out of a library and beat him to death? It was the news story du jour a couple of months back. The 10 year old had recently been expelled from public schools.

We cant just kick these kids out of school and be done with it. The only options are incarceration, rehablitation or execution. None of these options are perfect.

jmf1234 · 06-26-2003, 12:55 PM

I agree with Gecko, if the kids get booted where should they go? they can't be denied access to a public school it's unconstitutional.

HiThereDear · 06-26-2003, 01:13 PM

We need to send them to the most hardcore bootcamp there is, where they'll proceed to use emotional and minor physical torture to break these kids down and build them back up right.

Lebell · 06-26-2003, 01:33 PM

Two words:

Corporal Punishment.

Cynthetiq · 06-26-2003, 01:47 PM

education adds value to community. period. people are fighting hand over fist as to what that education means. To some it's nothing to others it's just being present, and for some they need to excel.

Nappa · 06-26-2003, 02:26 PM

Only one man can save our children.....Maury Povich. Boot Camp will teach those punks.

denim · 06-26-2003, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mad_Gecko
Army, Jail, Gangs??? I don't believe we solve the problem, unfortunately I don't have the answer.

Corporial (sp?) punishment. Used to work. Take the school system's authority away, don't back it up with parental authority, and this is what happens.

People don't parent their kids, then they prevent the school from doing it, and there we are again.

denim · 06-26-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Two words:

Corporal Punishment.

Looks like we're on the same page. And you know how to spell, too.

World's King · 06-26-2003, 02:52 PM

I don't mean to scare you sixate but I agree with you 100%.

If a kid is gotten to the point that it is impossible to conduct class in a normal fashion then that kid should be removed... indefinatly.

ARTelevision · 06-26-2003, 03:27 PM

...armed guards in every classroom.
...less spending on extraneous "educational materials" and "educational programs" to pay for them.
...juvenile justice system used briefly until repeat offenses - then use of the criminal justice system.

nitrorclover · 06-26-2003, 03:38 PM

I totally agree. I remember having kids like that in school when I was younger and they did nothing but waste everyone's time and tax money.

gibber71 · 06-26-2003, 05:55 PM

Send them to Iceland or Greenland.That way they can start their own colonies and live of the land,..or,..err,..ice.

txstar · 06-26-2003, 10:27 PM

The problem is that more and more children are having to raise themselves and their siblings. Some parents are taking on more jobs and working longer days. Because of this, there are parents who are not active in their child's upbringing or education. Intervention needs to begin when the child is younger. If a student gets into trouble a certain amount of times then the parent or parents need to be assigned to a parenting class with their child. The only way the problems in the schools can be eased is to put the responsibility of the child's actions back on their parents where it belongs.

seretogis · 06-27-2003, 12:46 AM

Unions partially at fault for something?! WHAT??! NO WAY!

Pyrate · 06-27-2003, 05:28 AM

Nope. What you gotta do is put them in the 'Victorian Wing' of the school, rip their trousers (or skirts) off and whip their fucking backsides skinless.

I have had bad experiences with school thugs/troublemakers, male and female, and they are in the top ten of my 'scum of the earth' list

warrrreagl · 06-27-2003, 06:12 AM

I was intrigued by the article's reference to what someone who died before 1960 would think, because the only unfortunate solution to the problem is Time Travel.

Too many social experiments with education after 1960 were not reversible, and they've gone horribly wrong on us. Unless we can go back in time and undo them, we're stuck with them and we're screwed.

butthead · 06-27-2003, 08:38 AM

Give guns to the losers, that way when anyone fucks with them the bully gets a bullet in the dome and the loser gets a self-esteem boost.

Fade · 06-27-2003, 10:49 AM

...thus turning the loser into a bully of his own accord.

butthead · 06-27-2003, 11:40 AM

To be clear, I wasn't being serious.

But on a more serious note, I find the idea of using torture (!) as help ridiculous..

denim · 06-27-2003, 12:14 PM

Corporal punishment isn't torture. Getting it up the ass in prison later because you had no discipline or role models as a kid, is.

Megacheese · 06-27-2003, 07:34 PM

Screwed up parents send out screwed up kids, normal parents send out normal kids

?

Makes sense to me

Bill O'Rights · 06-27-2003, 09:44 PM

Holy crap!! sixate, The_Dude *and* World's King all agreeing on the same subject/topic. My brain is ready to explode, here. Hell must indeed, have frozen over. Sell your Microsoft stock boys, it's all over and the internet is closed.

Having come into the topic late, and at the risk of appearing to jump on the proverbial bandwagon, I, too, must stand up and be counted with those that would toss the little bastards out onto the street. After beating their asses with the same wooden paddle that I got back in my school days.

komodo · 06-27-2003, 10:37 PM

Here's how I think it should go:

1st major offense- transfer to another school + fail current grade. Send a MAJOR wakeup call. THis is not running in the halls, or a little scuffle (and we all know the difference), or whatever. This is assault, possession of a firearm, drugs on school grounds, racism, sexual assault, etc etc.

2nd time- expulsion from public school. Government will fund the kid to go to a school (approved and certed by the government) that specializes in problem children- BUT ONLY ONCE. If the kid decides they don't like it, tough. If they get booted, they are on their own. If they get in trouble with the law after being booted from the special school (or quitting), they don't get the juvenile justice system, they get the criminal justice system with maximum sentencing preferred.

What happens to them? Well, they get a crappy job. Or they join the army. Or, more likely, they just continue their downward spiral, shoot someone and go to jail for life or get shot and die. Personally, I don't care. The fact is, people who bring guns to school or attack students with knives are only at school because they have to be. And forcing someone to go somewhere NEVER results in them being productive- they just screw it up for everyone else as much as possible.

spectre · 06-28-2003, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill O'Rights
Holy crap!! sixate, The_Dude *and* World's King all agreeing on the same subject/topic. My brain is ready to explode, here. Hell must indeed, have frozen over. Sell your Microsoft stock boys, it's all over and the internet is closed.

That's a scary thought.

ratbastid · 06-28-2003, 07:18 AM

Right. Get rid of them.

The same way we get rid of spent nuclear fuel and household garbage, right? We'll just open up a landfill and pour troublemaker kids into it, and then scrape sand over it when it's full. Is that it?

Bill O'Rights · 06-28-2003, 08:34 PM

Well, it seems to me that Conservatives, Liberals and Moderates are all on the same side on this issue, although ratbastid does provide a little food for thought. Check out komodo's post, ratbastid, although harsh, I think it's it's fair, equitable and not at all inconceivable.

<b>However</b>, I want to hear from educators. <b>Jadziadax, where are you?</b> Is anyone else out there involved in the education sector? I'm interested in hearing the viewpoints from those on the "front lines", as it were.

freedomdowntime · 06-30-2003, 10:28 PM

I say MILITARY all the way.

What to mess around and ruin your life....how bout you do something with it like die for your country? Anyway, you get guns, and juding by your bringing guns to school it looks like you like those.

Truthfully the military is something I could never do (think of Gomer Pyle) but I think it could help in this situation.

Phaenx · 06-30-2003, 10:50 PM

Label gangs as terrorists and hang them, they're already attacking our government, this will straighten them out, straighten them out good.

MikeyChalupa · 06-30-2003, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by freedomdowntime
I say MILITARY all the way.

What to mess around and ruin your life....how bout you do something with it like die for your country? Anyway, you get guns, and juding by your bringing guns to school it looks like you like those.

Truthfully the military is something I could never do (think of Gomer Pyle) but I think it could help in this situation.

NO.

No way. For the same reason I, as an active military member will NEVER support reinstating the draft. Remember that the only war we ever lost was the one where the military was primarily conscripted and didn't want to be there in the first place.

You mean I have to entrust my life and our nation's freedom to some snot-nosed punks who couldn't hack it in a PUBLIC SCHOOL? These kids can't handle "Please be quiet and take your seats" and you want them to take on steering aircraft carriers, clearing minefields and testing air for chemical weapons? NO THANK YOU.

Our military is a group of highly trained, well-educated professionals who are the best in the world at what they do. Obviously, there are people who have benefited greatly from the increased discipline, attention to detail, teamwork, orderly scheduling of the day, removal of certain freedoms, and such. But this is by NO MEANS the answer for all of these people. First off, there's no room. Thanks to the Clinton budget cuts, the military is set at a certain manpower level. Adding an influx of high-school troublemaking dropouts while keeping that manning level the same (because everyone pisses their pants whenever a President talks about increasing a defense budget) means refusing admission to an equal number of qualified people who WANT to be there. Second, as a supervisor, I see enough people who DIDN'T cause problems in high school that can't adapt to military life and wash out because of drugs, drinking problems, or other reasons. If we alow in the scum of our high schools we would be kicking out most of these people that we'd have to initially pay to train. And as we have already said, nobody wants to pay the tax bill on that.

Your concept of the military is all wrong. It's not a place where dirtbags become model citizens with buzz cuts who look snappy in a uniform. Not everyone can do it, as you said. You didn't want to volunteer, which is fine with me. For whatever reason, you didn't feel you could do it. Now imagine it having to be your punishment, and you have no say in the matter. Think you'd be ready to adapt? No. Instead of shooting an Iraqi, you'd shoot your platoon sergeant when he told you to get up at 4:30 AM. How has that solved any problem?

I don't have an easy answer. But the military is DEFINTELY not it.

-Mikey

Phaenx · 06-30-2003, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MikeyChalupa
NO.

No way. For the same reason I, as an active military member will NEVER support reinstating the draft. Remember that the only war we ever lost was the one where the military was primarily conscripted and didn't want to be there in the first place.

You mean I have to entrust my life and our nation's freedom to some snot-nosed punks who couldn't hack it in a PUBLIC SCHOOL? These kids can't handle "Please be quiet and take your seats" and you want them to take on steering aircraft carriers, clearing minefields and testing air for chemical weapons? NO THANK YOU.

Our military is a group of highly trained, well-educated professionals who are the best in the world at what they do. Obviously, there are people who have benefited greatly from the increased discipline, attention to detail, teamwork, orderly scheduling of the day, removal of certain freedoms, and such. But this is by NO MEANS the answer for all of these people. First off, there's no room. Thanks to the Clinton budget cuts, the military is set at a certain manpower level. Adding an influx of high-school troublemaking dropouts while keeping that manning level the same (because everyone pisses their pants whenever a President talks about increasing a defense budget) means refusing admission to an equal number of qualified people who WANT to be there. Second, as a supervisor, I see enough people who DIDN'T cause problems in high school that can't adapt to military life and wash out because of drugs, drinking problems, or other reasons. If we alow in the scum of our high schools we would be kicking out most of these people that we'd have to initially pay to train. And as we have already said, nobody wants to pay the tax bill on that.

Your concept of the military is all wrong. It's not a place where dirtbags become model citizens with buzz cuts who look snappy in a uniform. Not everyone can do it, as you said. You didn't want to volunteer, which is fine with me. For whatever reason, you didn't feel you could do it. Now imagine it having to be your punishment, and you have no say in the matter. Think you'd be ready to adapt? No. Instead of shooting an Iraqi, you'd shoot your platoon sergeant when he told you to get up at 4:30 AM. How has that solved any problem?

I don't have an easy answer. But the military is DEFINTELY not it.

-Mikey

I don't know, I can think of some creative ways of having them clear a minefield, check to see if someone is the enemy, or protect a tank (tie them to a tank).

izzzzy · 07-06-2003, 05:33 AM

whats wrong with holding the parents feet to the fire?these kids/young adults got thier angst and attitudes from somewhere it surely didnt come from their teachers or peers imho it begins at home

Nisses · 07-06-2003, 01:51 PM

MikeyChalupa :
Nobody is saying you want those thugs to fly carriers, of course not.
But in regiments they can learn to work in a team, and learn from there that they *can* achieve things productively and work their way up.

And yes, I do believe that for several cases the military *can* be a solution. Just not all of them obviously

cheerios · 07-06-2003, 04:47 PM

oh holy shit no. I'm sorry, but humilation, conscription, and eviction are NOT acceptable solutions. starting from the bottom:
kick them out of schools:
you A: don't give the kid a chance to change,
B: RUIN his/her future. WTF are they supposed to do w/o a HS diploma?
C: increase the population of poor, lowerclass citizens, who will create MORE "trouble" children.

send them to bootcamp/military;
Mikey's got this one covered. thanks, man!

corporal punishment: i have NEVER seen someone walk the line after being hit. shit, I'm more likely to hit back then take my licks and go on with life. violence should NOT be allowed in the classroom in ANY form.

06-26-2003, 12:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	get rid of 'em my high school sounds like heaven compared to that __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-26-2003, 12:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mad_Gecko Pro Libertate Location: City Gecko	What then do we do with all these uneducated louts? Admittedly its better than having educated louts..... I am one! Army, Jail, Gangs??? I don't believe we solve the problem, unfortunately I don't have the answer. __________________ [color=bright blue]W[/color]e Stick To Glass "If three of us travel together, I shall find two teachers." Confucious

06-26-2003, 12:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
bartgroks Crazy Location: Dallas, Tx.	I agree that criminals should be removed from Institutions of learning but I dont think we can really not be concerned with where they go from there. Does anyone remember the recent case in New York where a 10 year old male lured a 2 year old boy out of a library and beat him to death? It was the news story du jour a couple of months back. The 10 year old had recently been expelled from public schools. We cant just kick these kids out of school and be done with it. The only options are incarceration, rehablitation or execution. None of these options are perfect. __________________ I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by Google

06-26-2003, 12:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
jmf1234 Insane Location: Steel City ( the 'Burgh)	I agree with Gecko, if the kids get booted where should they go? they can't be denied access to a public school it's unconstitutional. __________________ Let's go Pitt, we're set for victory Sex is like bridge: If you don't have a good partner, you better have a good hand. -- Charles Pierce

06-26-2003, 01:33 PM	#9 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Two words: Corporal Punishment. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-26-2003, 12:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
Realizm Insane Location: A fuzzy cloud.	Need to boot those kids out and teach them some proper behavior. If they can't adhere to the standard, bye bye birdy.

06-26-2003, 12:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
Xios Upright	You feel exactly the same way that I do about this issue. Honestly, if a student doesn't pay attention in school and cares more about fighting or whatever the hell they are doing, then they are not going to be a productive member of society and should then be taken out of it! It is not the teachers jobs to babysit students, however, students should not have to fear going to school, so we can create a balance by removing these unproductive students from the schools.

06-26-2003, 01:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
HiThereDear Insane	We need to send them to the most hardcore bootcamp there is, where they'll proceed to use emotional and minor physical torture to break these kids down and build them back up right.

06-26-2003, 01:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	education adds value to community. period. people are fighting hand over fist as to what that education means. To some it's nothing to others it's just being present, and for some they need to excel. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-26-2003, 02:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
Nappa Tilted Location: behind you!!	Only one man can save our children.....Maury Povich. Boot Camp will teach those punks.

06-26-2003, 02:52 PM	#14 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	I don't mean to scare you sixate but I agree with you 100%. If a kid is gotten to the point that it is impossible to conduct class in a normal fashion then that kid should be removed... indefinatly. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

06-26-2003, 03:27 PM	#15 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	...armed guards in every classroom. ...less spending on extraneous "educational materials" and "educational programs" to pay for them. ...juvenile justice system used briefly until repeat offenses - then use of the criminal justice system. __________________ create evolution

06-26-2003, 03:38 PM	#16 (permalink)
nitrorclover Crazy	I totally agree. I remember having kids like that in school when I was younger and they did nothing but waste everyone's time and tax money.

06-26-2003, 05:55 PM	#17 (permalink)
gibber71 Loser	Send them to Iceland or Greenland.That way they can start their own colonies and live of the land,..or,..err,..ice.

06-26-2003, 10:27 PM	#18 (permalink)
txstar Tilted Location: Dallas, TX	The problem is that more and more children are having to raise themselves and their siblings. Some parents are taking on more jobs and working longer days. Because of this, there are parents who are not active in their child's upbringing or education. Intervention needs to begin when the child is younger. If a student gets into trouble a certain amount of times then the parent or parents need to be assigned to a parenting class with their child. The only way the problems in the schools can be eased is to put the responsibility of the child's actions back on their parents where it belongs.

06-27-2003, 12:46 AM	#19 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Unions partially at fault for something?! WHAT??! NO WAY! __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

06-27-2003, 05:28 AM	#20 (permalink)
Pyrate Psycho Location: London, CorBlimeyLand	Nope. What you gotta do is put them in the 'Victorian Wing' of the school, rip their trousers (or skirts) off and whip their fucking backsides skinless. I have had bad experiences with school thugs/troublemakers, male and female, and they are in the top ten of my 'scum of the earth' list __________________ ?

06-27-2003, 06:12 AM	#21 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	I was intrigued by the article's reference to what someone who died before 1960 would think, because the only unfortunate solution to the problem is Time Travel. Too many social experiments with education after 1960 were not reversible, and they've gone horribly wrong on us. Unless we can go back in time and undo them, we're stuck with them and we're screwed. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

06-27-2003, 08:38 AM	#22 (permalink)
butthead Loser Location: SF Bay Area, CA	Give guns to the losers, that way when anyone fucks with them the bully gets a bullet in the dome and the loser gets a self-esteem boost.

06-27-2003, 10:49 AM	#23 (permalink)
Fade Banned	...thus turning the loser into a bully of his own accord.

06-27-2003, 11:40 AM	#24 (permalink)
butthead Loser Location: SF Bay Area, CA	To be clear, I wasn't being serious. But on a more serious note, I find the idea of using torture (!) as help ridiculous..

06-27-2003, 12:14 PM	#25 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	Corporal punishment isn't torture. Getting it up the ass in prison later because you had no discipline or role models as a kid, is.

06-27-2003, 07:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
Megacheese Crazy Location: Texas	Screwed up parents send out screwed up kids, normal parents send out normal kids ? Makes sense to me __________________ Overwhelmed by the rugged comfort of denim

06-27-2003, 09:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Holy crap!! sixate, The_Dude and World's King all agreeing on the same subject/topic. My brain is ready to explode, here. Hell must indeed, have frozen over. Sell your Microsoft stock boys, it's all over and the internet is closed. Having come into the topic late, and at the risk of appearing to jump on the proverbial bandwagon, I, too, must stand up and be counted with those that would toss the little bastards out onto the street. After beating their asses with the same wooden paddle that I got back in my school days. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

06-27-2003, 10:37 PM	#28 (permalink)
komodo Tilted	Here's how I think it should go: 1st major offense- transfer to another school + fail current grade. Send a MAJOR wakeup call. THis is not running in the halls, or a little scuffle (and we all know the difference), or whatever. This is assault, possession of a firearm, drugs on school grounds, racism, sexual assault, etc etc. 2nd time- expulsion from public school. Government will fund the kid to go to a school (approved and certed by the government) that specializes in problem children- BUT ONLY ONCE. If the kid decides they don't like it, tough. If they get booted, they are on their own. If they get in trouble with the law after being booted from the special school (or quitting), they don't get the juvenile justice system, they get the criminal justice system with maximum sentencing preferred. What happens to them? Well, they get a crappy job. Or they join the army. Or, more likely, they just continue their downward spiral, shoot someone and go to jail for life or get shot and die. Personally, I don't care. The fact is, people who bring guns to school or attack students with knives are only at school because they have to be. And forcing someone to go somewhere NEVER results in them being productive- they just screw it up for everyone else as much as possible.

06-28-2003, 07:18 AM	#30 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Right. Get rid of them. The same way we get rid of spent nuclear fuel and household garbage, right? We'll just open up a landfill and pour troublemaker kids into it, and then scrape sand over it when it's full. Is that it?

06-28-2003, 08:34 PM	#31 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Well, it seems to me that Conservatives, Liberals and Moderates are all on the same side on this issue, although ratbastid does provide a little food for thought. Check out komodo's post, ratbastid, although harsh, I think it's it's fair, equitable and not at all inconceivable. <b>However</b>, I want to hear from educators. <b>Jadziadax, where are you?</b> Is anyone else out there involved in the education sector? I'm interested in hearing the viewpoints from those on the "front lines", as it were. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

06-30-2003, 10:28 PM	#32 (permalink)
freedomdowntime Banned	I say MILITARY all the way. What to mess around and ruin your life....how bout you do something with it like die for your country? Anyway, you get guns, and juding by your bringing guns to school it looks like you like those. Truthfully the military is something I could never do (think of Gomer Pyle) but I think it could help in this situation.

06-30-2003, 10:50 PM	#33 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Label gangs as terrorists and hang them, they're already attacking our government, this will straighten them out, straighten them out good. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

07-06-2003, 05:33 AM	#36 (permalink)
izzzzy Crazy Location: SW NEW HAMPSHIRE	whats wrong with holding the parents feet to the fire?these kids/young adults got thier angst and attitudes from somewhere it surely didnt come from their teachers or peers imho it begins at home

07-06-2003, 01:51 PM	#37 (permalink)
Nisses Shade Location: Belgium	MikeyChalupa : Nobody is saying you want those thugs to fly carriers, of course not. But in regiments they can learn to work in a team, and learn from there that they can achieve things productively and work their way up. And yes, I do believe that for several cases the military can be a solution. Just not all of them obviously __________________ Moderation should be moderately moderated.

07-06-2003, 04:47 PM	#38 (permalink)
cheerios Banned Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac	oh holy shit no. I'm sorry, but humilation, conscription, and eviction are NOT acceptable solutions. starting from the bottom: kick them out of schools: you A: don't give the kid a chance to change, B: RUIN his/her future. WTF are they supposed to do w/o a HS diploma? C: increase the population of poor, lowerclass citizens, who will create MORE "trouble" children. send them to bootcamp/military; Mikey's got this one covered. thanks, man! corporal punishment: i have NEVER seen someone walk the line after being hit. shit, I'm more likely to hit back then take my licks and go on with life. violence should NOT be allowed in the classroom in ANY form.