Fire

A few notes on this tragedy


I feel that a lawfully armed citizen could have stopped the guy a lot sooner-

that mall banned any concealed firearms, and while nebraska had legal CC, cities could ban it, and omaha had (though they MAY have overturned it recently- cannot find updates on that)-

note that the weapon used by the bad guy was stolen, and not concealable, and , if it was an sks, as the reports seem to indicate, not even on most of the ban lists as it only holds 10 rounds unless it is altered, (many are, but it is generally a bad idea as it tends to make it look "cool" but function poorly) The SKS fires a 7.62x 39 round, and is very popular because it is cheap, rugged, and as the cartridge is about on par with the 30/30, it is often used as a deer rifle (this is in part because the ammo is relatively cheap, so it is easy for someone to practice enough to actually hit the deer they are shooting at)

What really pisses me off is that in the assailants suicide letter he stated that he was going to be famous, and the media has granted his wish- I would really like it if the media stopped using his name, and instead imortalized the victims- it sucks that many of us remember the names of the guys that did the columbine shootings, but no one remembers a single victims name.....If I owned a major news outlet, I would start the story with a brief description of the bad guys suicide note and desire for fame, and then go on to describing what happened, and the lives and accomplishments of the victims - no mention of his name, no pic of him- just call him the gunman or the failure or something derogatory- and do that for all the "i am a worthless piece of shit notice me killings" make sure the victims are known, and glorified, and leave the bad guy as anonomous as possible......

__________________
Thought the harder, Heart the bolder,
Mood the more as our might lessens

MSD

A quick lesson on gun identification
SKS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sks
AK47:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47

Notice the vague similarities, but also notice that a five-year-old with five minutes of being shown the differences can tell which is which.

He had a drug possession conviction and a felon conviction. He couldn't have legally owned a gun.
I haven't shot anyone, but I think it's safe to say that it's a little bit harder to take aim and fire on panicking live targets than it is to move a mouse and click when the cursor is over the other guy's head.
Your trolling is getting tiresome.

roachboy

i have to say that i find the gun posturing here to be kinda creepy
everyone is quite sure of their potential heroics as they sit in a chair staring at a monitor.
sitting in a chair in front of a monitor, no=one would miss: everyone's a marksman.
and i do not doubt that on a firing range, having entered that kind of zen state that is aiming, that everyone who practices can shoot quite well.
but in a mall?
while panic unfolds around you?
who knows, maybe you'd have hit the target.
maybe there'd have been "collateral damage".
maybe that collateral damage would have made you famous as well, as the vigilante who mowed down x or y while trying to prevent this kid from mowing down other x-es or other y-s.
or maybe you'd be famous for having hit your target like a sherrif in a western.

either way, i am not sure i see the difference between these fantasies of vigilante action and the motives of the shooter in omaha.

nor can i imagine feeling any safer, reading through these gun-toting fantasy narratives, thinking about what might have happened in 3-d ---that is, had they not been written by folk sitting in a chair, staring at a monitor in controlled conditions physically, unspooling wild wild west stories in their imagination.

i read them and i see more chaos, more destruction, more death: multiple centers rather than one or two.

it is curious.
i happened to be near a television tuned to that endless stream of nothing that is cnn while this was happening.

the coverage seemed mostly about enabling network functionaries to use that tone they have developed to indicate commiseration on the one hand, and to present the illusion of having eliminated arbitrariness on the other.

the only trend there is is news coverage of this kind of action, which links them together because you see them in the same basic way on the same television outlets. you confuse television coverage and the narrative that is imposed simply by continuity with something that explains what happens in the world outside the reach of local news action team helicopter footage and strangely coiffed people in suits providing you with punchy little sentences as "explanation."

from the viewpoint of larger causal patterns, this mall shooting is arbitrary.
you wouldnt have been able to do much to change it were you there, were you strapped, were you locking and loading blah blah blah.
and i dont think the fact of coverage explains anything.
it just provides a complication of narrative.

there is arbitrariness.
you have to deal with it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Plan9

Mens rhea, perhaps.

Would you do nothing?

...

I've been shot at before.

Turns out: It sucks.

Bravery isn't defined by heroic activities.

Bravery is defined by taking action when others don't.

...

I concur with your post and it saddens me... and it saddens me because I concur with it.

Hahaha, maybe it was a Tec-9! Or a plasma blaster! I honestly don't care what it was, the media can't figure it out and in the end it matters about as much as the car he used to get to the mall. The media are gun experts: they're five year olds with more education than I'll ever have.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Leto

What is the proper reaction for those who were targeted? Or is there nothing that they could have done? keep in mind the context, that these are average people shopping in a mall.

Plan9

Military training says: Getting face down (either flat on the ground or behind concealment / cover) with your forearms crossed over your head has been proven to be more safe than running like a headless chicken when suddenly someone is firing rapidly from a fixed position. It has worked for me before several times. Your mileage may vary.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

blahblah454

As roach said, who knows what would happen if you were actually in the situation. But sitting here in front of my monitor I tend to think I would do as cromp says, my first reaction seems to me that if I get down on the ground the gunslinger will ignore me and probably shoot for the targets that are grabbing his attention.

Infinite_Loser

PC run amok! It doesn't bother me what you think. I'm not gonna' apologize considering white men and women constitute over 90% of suicides as well as the vast majority of public shootings.

*Shrugs*

Don't like it? Too bad. Hence why I said save me the grief I was undoubtedly going to get.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Bill O'Rights

Although there are many that would dispute it...I am in fact..."ok".
Although the media saturation, in Omaha at least, is wearisome. It's to be expected, though. Little Omaha is growing up, and people have this need to try to make sense of something senseless. I will say that the low point, with the media, came as a local anchor team actually seemed proud of the fact that this was the lead story on the BBC.

Westroads is still closed today. It will reopen tomorrow. But, Von Maur will remain closed. There are too many..."repairs" that need to be made, and the investigators have not yet released the crime scene. In other words...there's still a lot of blood to scrub off of the floors, and carpeting to be replaced, before holiday shopping can resume.

As a bit of an aside. My daughter took my grand-daughter to Von Maur on Tuesday, to visit Santa. 24 hours later...
Oh well, can't dwell on it. A lot of people were in that mall, and in that store.

I am inclined to agree.

What school is that, icevrething?

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

dksuddeth

and then again, you might only see that because some of us have no fear of being shot or killed. I learned not to fear death as a marine. That's not to say I want to die, I just don't fear it. It's been said that people are dumb, panicky animals....and that may be true for a vast majority but it certainly doesn't hold for everybody, just as if someone said that because people are dumb and panicky animals, all they would be capable of doing is dropping to the fetal position and shitting their pants from fear. Would that hold true for everyone? of course not. Some people react calmly, some react irrationally.
You see more chaos, destruction, and death as a result of people being armed because you've come to view your fellow man as that dumb panicky animal who is totally incompetent in the face of danger, or you view yourself this way and are doing nothing but projecting that inward feeling outward so as not to feel impotent.
Many people feel strongly that adding armed citizens in the mix will just increase the death rate exponentially because they aren't 'highly' trained like law enforcement officers. Truth be told, I'd rather be around armed regular people than armed police officers. In my experience, cops are more dangerous and unpredictable than wild dingos.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Ustwo

I can't speak for every man, but I'd rather be armed in this situation than just another target. Some people are naturally victims I guess.

You know loser, as a white male my chances of getting murdered are less than a lot of European countries, yet, the US has a higher murder rate per capita. Its pretty easy to fill in those blanks. We really don't need to go there and you are just trolling. Its tiresome because people aren't even bothering to respond. They have become desensitized to your blathering.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ring

Hey IL person, you must not be seein as much red as you used to,
Your pink eye clearing up?

(now do I get away with that type of insult because I put a disclaimer
on it before saying it?)

That seems to be a first rate form of passive aggressive behavior that might have served you well in the past, but I have a sneaking suspicion you
are rapidly evolving past that and change can be scary sometimes.

I'm blacker than you are, and I am so pale I'd blind ya (JOKE)

You are the only one who can grieve you.

I am positive you can spark us all to question long held Ideas.

As we do for you, Thank you.

Now Die. (joke) see how old this gets?

Plan9

Oh, but being a victim is civilized.

Absolutely excellent response. We are what we do, what are what we do. There is a balance to be obtained, though. The experiences that you and I have from the military... not something that can be easily summed up in words for others to understand... it must be experienced. No way around it. Textbooks and movies and teevee are jokes and insults to the cold, messy reality.

I think Roachboy was expressing his side of the philosophy as someone who probably hasn't been hammered into a combative shape and I concur with it to the extent that a lot of people pet gun egos and that must be tempered with proper training and certification and the confidence that comes from both having a big pair of brass balls and knowing when to utilize them.

...

I'd hate to think I live in a country where so many of my fellow citizens are peachy-keen-a-okay with dying without defiance.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

roachboy

dk and crompsin--but dk's no. 50 in particular----point to something else, though, and i find that actually interesting.
when you imagined yourself in the scenario of the mall, you imagined yourself immediately as in a position to react with a weapon.

i imagined myself as---counter-intuitive as this is to me--walking around the mall, not thinking of anything in particular, and finding myself in the vicinity of this kid at the moment he started shooting.

so in your scenario, you imagined yourself as in a position to assert a degree of control, and then filled in other possibilities because of your disposition and background--it is at that point that i found no. 50 interesting.

it made me wonder why exactly my immediate reaction was to put myself imaginatively in the position of someone who just happened to be wandering around in a mall at the wrong time.

the difference seems to me that you reduced chaos by the way you chose to insert yourself into the scene. but i did the opposite: i multiplied the origin points. so i projected myself as a spectator.

i dont have a particular argument to make about this, but it is an interesting sidebar.
actually, i understand the desire to feel as though you could have done something in such a situation.
and it makes sense that anyone, really, would be inclined to project that desire into scenarios that one constructs.

where things grow strange is the moment one starts to conflate the content of a scenario/projection with something more than that.

i dont agree with your argument that you built on the basis of the scenario that you generated, dk, but that's to be expected i suppose: i just find the choice each of us made, which i take to be a kind of reflex choice, and the difference between them, to be interesting.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Plan9

Dear Guy Closest To The Psycho In The Mall: Please don't just curl up and die.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Halx

White men and women also make up 90% of the population of this country. Your point?

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[Don't Feed The Animals]

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

abaya

Demographer checking in here...Halx, the percentage of the US population identifying as white-only (as opposed to 2 or more "races") is almost exactly 80%, as of the latest population estimate (July 2006), done by the US census. You can download an Excel file from their website to check the actual numbers... http://www.census.gov/popest/estimates.php

/Now returning to our regularly scheduled thread...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Infinite_Loser

You want to mention that blacks constitute a little over 50% of all homicides in the United States (Most due to gang related violence)? Go right on ahead. Since it's a true statistic, I can't really take offense to that statement because I might not like, now can I? No, I can't (Not that I would anyway). What's true is true.

*Shrugs*

With that being said, you can say/think whatever you want about my initial statement-- It's not as if you disagreeing with it makes it any less valid You, as a caucassion, are statistically more likely to 1.) Commit suicide and 2.) Go on an unabated rampage (If you wanna' call it that) before committing suicide than I am. I fully well expected someone to try to jump on my case, which is why I initially said to spare me the grief I was undoubtedly going to get. It's amazing how bent-out-of-shape some people can get because of statements they don't necessarily like.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

remy1492

I agree with Crompsin a lot, I think the media is all over it for RATINGS and the hype of an "assault weapon" when in reality a semi-automatic browning 3006 hunting rifle with a nice scope on it (Deer season) would have been even more accurate, no doubt if the teenager had stolen his dads AK/SKS variant or his hunting rifle, they both would have the label: "ASSAULT" in it to get attention.

I Also recall reading about the VT shooters ASSAULT handgun. In fact, everything can be worded that way but the anti-gun people in the USA like to add it to congressional bills with the endgame in mind. That of banning all guns for the ultimate in safety illusions, a violence free society, where without evil guns, teenagers would be peaceful, calm and serene.

It makes me mad that mall banned the concealed carry of guns, some innocent people died so the mall could keep that utopian illusion of safety.

Here is a good one by the Author of "more guns less crime"

-------------------


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html

The horrible tragedy at the Westroads Mall in Omaha, Neb. received a lot of attention Wednesday and Thursday. It should have. Eight people were killed, and five were wounded.

A Google news search using the phrase "Omaha Mall Shooting" finds an incredible 2,794 news stories worldwide for the last day. From India and Taiwan to Britain and Austria, there are probably few people in the world who haven’t heard about this tragedy.

But despite the massive news coverage, none of the media coverage, at least by 10 a.m. Thursday, mentioned this central fact: Yet another attack occurred in a gun-free zone.

Surely, with all the reporters who appear at these crime scenes and seemingly interview virtually everyone there, why didn’t one simply mention the signs that ban guns from the premises?

Nebraska allows people to carry permitted concealed handguns, but it allows property owners, such as the Westroads Mall, to post signs banning permit holders from legally carrying guns on their property.

The same was true for the attack at the Trolley Square Mall in Utah in February (a copy of the sign at the mall can be seen here). But again the media coverage ignored this fact. Possibly the ban there was even more noteworthy because the off-duty police officer who stopped the attack fortunately violated the ban by taking his gun in with him when he went shopping.

Yet even then, the officer "was at the opposite end and on a different floor of the convoluted Trolley Square complex when the shooting began. By the time he became aware of the shooting and managed to track down and confront Talovic [the killer], three minutes had elapsed."

There are plenty of cases every year where permit holders stop what would have been multiple victim shootings every year, but they rarely receive any news coverage. Take a case this year in Memphis, where WBIR-TV reported a gunman started "firing a pistol beside a busy city street" and was stopped by two permit holders before anyone was harmed.

When will part of the media coverage on these multiple-victim public shootings be whether guns were banned where the attack occurred? While the media has begun to cover whether teachers can have guns at school or the almost 8,000 college students across the country who protested gun-free zones on their campuses, the media haven’t started checking what are the rules where these attacks occur.

Surely, the news stories carry detailed information on the weapon used (in this case, a rifle) and the number of ammunition clips (apparently, two). But if these aspects of the story are deemed important for understanding what happened, why isn’t it also important that the attack occurred where guns were banned? Isn’t it important to know why all the victims were disarmed?

Few know that Dylan Klebold, one of the two Columbine killers, closely was following Colorado legislation that would have allowed citizens to carry a concealed handgun. Klebold strongly opposed the legislation and openly talked about it.

No wonder, as the bill being debated would have allowed permitted guns to be carried on school property. It is quite a coincidence that he attacked the Columbine High School the very day the legislature was scheduled to vote on the bill.

Despite the lack of news coverage, people are beginning to notice what research has shown for years: Multiple-victim public shootings keep occurring in places where guns already are banned. Forty states have broad right-to-carry laws, but even within these states it is the "gun-free zones," not other public places, where the attacks happen.

People know the list: Virginia Tech saw 32 murdered earlier this year; the Columbine High School shooting left 13 murdered in 1999; Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, had 23 who were fatally shot by a deranged man in 1991; and a McDonald's in Southern California had 21 people shot dead by an unemployed security guard in 1984.

All these attacks — indeed, all attacks involving more than a small number of people being killed — happened in gun-free zones.

In recent years, similar attacks have occurred across the world, including in Australia, France, Germany and Britain. Do all these countries lack enough gun-control laws? Hardly. The reverse is more accurate.

The law-abiding, not criminals, are obeying the rules. Disarming the victims simply means that the killers have less to fear. As Wednesday's attack demonstrated yet again, police are important, but they almost always arrive at the crime scene after the crime has occurred.

The longer it takes for someone to arrive on the scene with a gun, the more people who will be harmed by such an attack.

Most people understand that guns deter criminals. If a killer were stalking your family, would you feel safer putting a sign out front announcing, "This Home Is a Gun-Free Zone"? But that is what the Westroads Mall did.

---------------------

Plan9

80%-90%... who cares? We all look the same anyway, right?

Q: What do you call a mall cop without a weapon?

A: Anything you want... they're as useful as a toddler or senior citizen.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Halx

Fine fine. 80%. My point is that white people make up a vast majority of the population, so the fact that a vast majority of _______ crimes are committed by white people is irrelevant. There are more effective ways to look at numbers.

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Willravel

Translation: "Had the victims had guns, they'd magically be alive". Same old tune, eh? If I had a gun, could I also fly?

Here's a nutty idea: no one save for military officers had a need for an ak47. You don't hunt with them (deer pate, anyone?), they will destroy your house during a home invasion (read: OVERKILL for self defense) and you can't exactly walk around with one.

There are three reasons for a civilian to have an ak47: small penis, wanting to fight the government, or wanting to go on an insane rampage. Cept Crompsin. He's the exception.

abaya

Certainly, it IS irrelevant. Not disagreeing with you... just checking the numbers, as they were pounded into my brain by several demography professors.

I'm not even sure why skin color is considered relevant into this discussion, period. It might be interesting, though, to talk about how the news coverage would be different if the shooter had been black. Did anyone perceive a difference when the VA Tech guy was revealed to be Asian?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Infinite_Loser

*Points to the thread regarding the VT shooter*

Way ahead of you.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

abaya

I don't recall there being much discussion about the skin color of the sniper(s)--incidentally, both black men--who opened fire on random people right after 9/11... but if there was, I am sure you'll remind me.

What, exactly, is your point again?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Infinite_Loser

Read post #59.

Edit: Actually, I change my mind. I will say something. These threads are dumb because they generally degenerate down to one of those "Gun control" debates. As far as I see it (And the statistics don't lie) the problem ain't getting the guns; It's the group of people who generally do the shooting. I feel no remorse in pointing out that the majority of people who go on killing rampages through the general public are white in decent.

...But, you know, apparently that's not so PC to say >_>

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

QuasiMondo

It wouldn't have been different. Remember when Colin Ferguson went on his rampage through a Long Island Railroad commuter train?

Or the D.C. sniper?

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Willravel

Race has nothing to do with anything. Why are people feeding the troll?

ring

A voice of reason speaks.
Thanks Willravel.

Carry on.. sorry I have nothing else to add.

MSD

I don't arm myself in the hope that I will be able to kill someone if necessary, I arm myself in the hope that if I am in a tragic situation, that I can save lives.
The ideal reaction is the preservation instinct. If you are in no position to stop the attack, get yourself and as many others as possible to safe locations. In the unlikely situation that you are properly equipped to deal with an armed threat and located where it is possible to do so, it would be proper to attempt to stop the threat.
It's not PC run amok. You made an inflammatory statement with the intent of producing a negative reaction. You also seem to have defined "public shootings" to suit your view; the unfortunate circumstance is that young black males are the predominant perpetrators and victims of gun violence in the US. I'd hate to think of how I'd be treated if I dismissed Philadelphia's homicide rate as "black folk being black folk."
I'm more likely to commit suicide and go on a rampage, and you're more likely to throw your life away in a gang or die of a crack overdose. This can go on and on. Let's make this about the bad side of human nature, not the way in which the bad apples particular demographic groups go about indiscriminately bailing water out of the gene pool.
Good thing I have an AK-74, I don't want that kind of judgment made about my penis.

Willravel

K fine,
"cept Crompsin and MSD"

dksuddeth

again, it's about having a chance, however small, instead of no chance at all. It just might also minimize the lives lost.
you're right. that is definitely a nutty idea.
did you know that the same size and power cartridge is used in popular hunting rifles? The only difference between an AK and some hunting rifles is the look.

the popular argument for those people who don't like it that other men are comfortable around weapons while they are not.
or trying to keep the government honest and non-tyrannical. another argument used by people who don't trust freedom.
which is why the VT killer used one, wait, no he didn't. It must have been the guy at the amish church. no, he didn't either. guess you were wrong? maybe?
or were you just generalizing BS arguments from the middle hole of your ass?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Ustwo

they will destroy your house during a home invasion (read: OVERKILL for self defense)

Sometimes I don't understand a liberal mind set, this is one of those times....

They will destroy your house?



I have this image of your imagination working with some guy spraying in a circle wildly on full auto.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Fotzlid

ok. here is a theoretical scenario.
someone has started rampage shooting in the mall. several people with concealed weapons draw and start looking for the shooter.
people running everywhere. one of the several comes around a corner and sees what they think is a gun and blasts away.
what happens if one of them accidently shoots someone other than the rampaging shooter?

cops accidently shoot people they mistakenly thought were carrying guns.

Willravel

Not at all. Have you ever shot at someone who didn't want to be shot? They move. Moving targets aren't always easy to hit. What happens when you miss shooting at someone in your house?

dksuddeth

theoretical, hypothetical, it's all thetical.
One of the things I've noticed is the disparaging difference between those that practice with guns and those that don't. Those who practice tend not to be kneejerky and impulsively reckless while those who don't, think everyone else can be no other way.

Here is how I see your hypothetical...
three or four people in the mall are carrying. gunfire erupts from the balcony overlooking the food court. As everyone else flees for the doors, three of the four carrying start moving quicly but cautiously towards the gunfire. The fourth person was down in the food court and is now behind the cover of the center pillar of the food court because he did NOT panic and bolt for the door, instead finding the nearest impenatrable object to place between him and the shooter.
Of the other three, two turn a corner and sight each other, carrying a gun in their hands, and stop momentarily facing each other preparing to shoot, if necessary. Upon STILL hearing gunfire from the food court area, they are quick to figure out that neither of them are the assault weapon bearing insane murdering rampager, and continue on toward the food court working in tandem to cover each other. This part can happen easily, mainly because we're wild west wannabe sherrifs looking to be the big heroes and have thought of nothing but killing bad guys since we got our concealed weapons permits. The third person carrying comes around a different corner and realizes that the shooting is coming from the balcony overhead. realizing that there is no way he can make it to the shooter, satisfies his heroic urges by waving the dumb panicky human animals past him as he gallantly covers their collective cowardly asses. The two guys on the second floor look out from behind separate columns to see the murderous crazy dude gleefully laughing as he sprays a lead curtain of death down upon the fleeing customers from the food court and each fires three times, two to the body and one to the head. no wait, got that wrong. In their zeal to be the saviors of the day, they empty two magazines of 9mm randomly through the mall areas killing more innocent bystanders than the insane rampaging murderer was able to do with his fully automatic military style assault weapon that he would not have been able to obtain, had the evil republicans not let the 94 AWB lapse.
It's at that time, about 6 minutes after the first 911 call to the police, that the local police enter the food court area, see four armed men with handguns, and expertly snipe their brains through the backs of their heads while the real murdering crazy says 'oh shit, coppers' and eats the flaming barrel of his street corner bought machine gun.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dlish

all i can think of is charlie sheen in Hot Shots back in the ealy 90's doing rambo where he keeps firing until he's standing in a mound of ammo...

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MzNadia

I got this from another forum so no sure how credible it is, but they reported this dude kicked out 30-40 rounds, yet hit only 7. I'd call that a bad shot.