Galactic Alignment 2012 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 02:10 PM

I've heard 2012 mentioned from several sources, the Mayan Calander, the I Ching, the Bible Codes, Native American Prophecy, on and on. Is this just a galactic alignment or is our world about to be changed forever???

http://alignment2012.com/

Over 2,000 years ago the early Maya formulated a profound galactic cosmology. They saw that the sun, on the winter solstice, was slowly moving toward the heart of the galaxy. Naturally enough, with their uncorrupted intelligence intact, they suspected that the world would go through a transformation when the solar and the galactic planes aligned. They devised their Long Count calendar to target when the cosmic alignment would maximize, and that time is AD 2012. We are lucky that the brilliant skywatchers who devised the 2012 calendar left carved monuments for us to decode, and that they have survived the decay of centuries, so that we can know exactly what they prophesied and believed about 2012.

http://www.vitalsignspublishing.co.u...tract2012.html

Terence and Dennis McKenna had published a book in 1975, The Invisible Landscape, in which they showed that the Chinese oracle, the I Ching, had originally been used as a lunar calendar in which the 64 six-line hexagrams – 384 lines in all – had represented the 384 days in a thirteen-month lunar year. Following their 1971 journey down to the Amazon jungle, in which the brothers had a shared hallucinogenic experience, they developed their insights and devised a method by which to convert the Chinese Book of Changes – the I Ching – into a complex wave that mapped the timing of all the changes in the universe, or “the ingression of novelty into space-time”. The complex wave was composed of a hierarchy of waves – each one of a magnitude 64 times greater than the one below it – that mapped all change, from sub-atomic event durations up to the duration of the three-dimensional physical universe. The explosion of the atomic bombs at the end of the Second World War was taken to be a sufficiently novel event that it should correlate to a major peak on the Timewave, and when lined up with the Gregorian calendar it was found that late in 2012 AD all the waves and sub-waves would peak together, signifying “concrescence” – an evolutionary pinnacle and dimensional transition.

http://www.exodus2006.com/2012.htm Codes for 2012

RETYPED TRANSCRIPT OF THE COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS HELD IN
EAGLE BUTTE, SOUTH DAKOTA ON OCTOBER 4, 2005, REGULAR OCTOBER SESSION.

http://www.2012endofdays.org/more/Na...n-prophecy.php

NATIVE AMERICAN PROPHECY
American Indians are a diverse ethnic group. Their languages, customs, social systems varied greatly. One common characteristic found in many Indian nations was an affinity to the spiritual side of life. Out of this came man prophecies.

One of the most fascinating set of prophecies comes out of the Hopi nation located in the Southwestern United States. Many prophecies foretold by the Hopi appear to have come true. Some of these are:

"The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.

"This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.

"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."

"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."

"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."

"This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."

"This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."

"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."

"This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.

"And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.

"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.

Overall, the theme of Hopi prophecy is that the Earth is going to soon go through a great purification and that humanity can make the decision as to how extreme this purification will be. Their belief is that the world goes through a period of destruction and renewal and that we are about to enter into a new age, the 5th world (or 6th depending upon the source).

politicophile · 03-13-2007, 02:14 PM

two characters

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

Although I love reading mythology (I find it absolutely fascinating), I am equally excited about the prospect of destroying the credibility of another of these stories. I learned enough from Y2K to know better than to fear Y2K12.

The galactic alignment is no myth, it is a fact, it will happen Dec 21, 2012.

http://alignment2012.com/whatisGA.htm

politicophile · 03-13-2007, 02:39 PM

two characters

Painted · 03-13-2007, 02:47 PM

Will this affect me in any way?

mirevolver · 03-13-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

The galactic alignment is no myth, it is a fact, it will happen Dec 21, 2012.

Interesting that you list the date as December 21. This is the winter solstice, which has been view among many "pagan" cultures as a symbolic date of renewing and rebirth.

SecretMethod70 · 03-13-2007, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

Sorry, that's not what I meant to imply. I meant that the stated consequences of the galactic alignment were mythological. Likewise, astrology isn't wrong in its statements about the positions of the heavenly bodies, but it is totally incorrect when it tries to use this astronomical knowledge to predict the future. So it is with the effect of the 2012 alignment on planet Earth.

Indeed. Yes, there will be a galactic alignment. No, it won't matter one bit.

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70

Indeed. Yes, there will be a galactic alignment. No, it won't matter one bit.

How do you know it wont matter??? Any evidence to back that up???

politicophile · 03-13-2007, 03:55 PM

two characters

mirevolver · 03-13-2007, 04:58 PM

A little reading on 2012 and the Mayan Calander

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoame...Count_calendar

2012 and the Long Count

The end of the 13th b'ak'tun is conjectured to have been of great significance to the Maya. It does not necessarily mark the end of the world, according to their beliefs, but a new beginning or time of re-birth. According to the Popol Vuh, a book compiling details of creation accounts known to the Quiché Maya of the colonial-era highlands, we are living in the fifth world. The Popol Vuh describes the first four creations that the gods failed in making and the creation of the successful fifth world where men were placed.

The last creation ended on a long count of 12.19.19.17.19. Another 12.19.19.17.19 will occur on December 20th 2012, followed by the start of the thirteenth Baktun, 13.0.0.0.0, on December 21st. It has been discussed in many New Age articles and books that this will be the end of this creation, the next pole shift or something else entirely. However, the Maya abbreviated their long counts to just the last five vigesimal places. There was an infinite number of larger units that were usually not shown. When the larger units were shown (notably on a monument from Coba), the end of the last creation is expressed as 13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.13.0.0.0.0, where the units are obviously supposed to be 13s twenty places larger than that b'ak'tun. In this age we are only approaching 0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.13.0.0.0.0, and the larger places would all need to similarly roll over to 13 again to match the date of the new creation.[7]

This is confirmed by a date from Palenque, which projects forward in time to 1.0.0.0.0.0, which will occur on October 13, 4772 (a Friday). The Classic Period Maya likely did not believe that the end of this age would occur in 2012. According to the Maya, there will be a baktun ending in 2012, a significant event being the end of the 13th 400 year period, but not the end of the world.

A list of the start dates for 13 Baktuns
Long Count Proleptic Gregorian Calendar Date
0.0.0.0.0 August 11, 3114 BCE
1.0.0.0.0 November 13, 2720 BCE
2.0.0.0.0 February 16, 2325 BCE
3.0.0.0.0 May 21, 1931 BCE
4.0.0.0.0 August 23, 1537 BCE
5.0.0.0.0 November 26, 1143 BCE
6.0.0.0.0 February 28, 748 BCE
7.0.0.0.0 June 3, 354 BCE
8.0.0.0.0 September 5, 41 CE
9.0.0.0.0 December 9, 435 CE
10.0.0.0.0 March 13, 830 CE
11.0.0.0.0 June 15, 1224 CE
12.0.0.0.0 September 18, 1618 CE
13.0.0.0.0 December 21, 2012 CE

The Calendar doesn't end on 2012, instead it's the 12th Baktun cycle that ends on Dec. 21, 2012. That will then begin the 13th Baktun cycle. In other words, the date is a little over hyped.

Also the 11th Baktun cycle ended on September 18, 1618. I can only recall one significant event of 1618, and that was on May 23rd, 1618 there was the Defenestration of Prague which started the 30 Years War.

Halx · 03-13-2007, 05:04 PM

Hmm the last prophecy didn't come true. Let's look forward to the next one.

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Hmm the last prophecy didn't come true. Let's look forward to the next one.

What Prophecy???

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

Humans can't predict the future: it's really that simple.

EDIT: My favorite statement on astrology in general. A ridiculous concept all around.

So basically you have no evidence to support your claim, and are in fact also trying to predict the future by saying nothing will happen on that day. Got it. BTW, I wasnt addressing you.....but I understand how you couldnt wait to tear into anyone because they didnt share your opinions. Got that too.

SecretMethod70 · 03-13-2007, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

How do you know it wont matter??? Any evidence to back that up???

The funny thing about logic is that when the typical state of something is "nothing special," you don't need evidence to claim that it will remain as "nothing special." Where evidence should be demanded is when someone claims that something out-of-the-ordinary will happen.

Example: You're going to die. I hope you wouldn't demand evidence of that fact before believing it. I can't prove that you're not special and have some metaphysical force that will keep you alive for all eternity, but then, I don't need to prove that. The simple fact that the normal state of life is for it to end in death means that unless it can be proven that you do have a metaphysical force that will keep you alive, it is safe - and appropriate - to assume that you do not, and will die.

It's the same here. Astronomical events happen all the time. Lunar eclipses used to be considered bad omens. Turns out, there's nothing particularly special about them. Planets align. It's happened before, and will happen again, and nothing spectacular has happened because of it. The list goes on.

The normal state of existence is for there to be no metaphysical correlation between rare, but nonetheless normal, events and good or bad things happening to people. I'm not against "thinking outside the box," but give me a reason to. "Such-and-such people said so, and they were pretty cool," is not a reason. For now, I am content believing that life will continue as it always has, until I see some credible reason to believe otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

What Prophecy???

Well, any number of prophecies by any number of people or civilizations. Funny how Nostradamus keeps on being wrong, until after something happens and we say "hey, I think this is actually a reference to X!"

More specifically related to this was the May 5, 2000 planetary alignment, which many people believed might be some Big Terrible Thing (TM). Seeing as how it's nearly 7 years later now, I think it's safe to say that that one, like every other "prophecy," has turned out to be a dud.

politicophile · 03-13-2007, 08:20 PM

two characters

DaveOrion · 03-13-2007, 08:40 PM

I didnt suggest anything, I asked for opinions, but never stated my own. I copy & pasted a few paragraphs and posted some links. Thats all. Once again, anyone that doesnt agree with you is some how 'flawed'.

What about computers??? Can they predict the future???

http://urbansurvival.com/simplebots.htm

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 06:34 AM

The world changes forever every day. The rates are variable, and the meanings, the same. As time passes we must pass through time...
It's good stuff, isn't it?

Crack · 03-14-2007, 06:42 AM

Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places. He must have been trapped by the sinking whilst within his black abyss, or else the world would by now be screaming with fright and frenzy. Who knows the end? What has risen may sink, and what has sunk may rise. Loathsomeness waits and dreams in the deep, and decay spreads over the tottering cities of men

I blame Cthulhu

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 07:07 AM

See? The world changed again! Cthulwho never existed. If we use our imaginations as engines of belief rather than creation there will come into existence no tall buildings or flying machines. Oops! They're already here!

flat5 · 03-14-2007, 07:55 AM

snowy · 03-14-2007, 08:10 AM

We're planning on a group trip to the Mayan pyramids. It's going to be a friends from college reunion. Should be fun.

analog · 03-14-2007, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crack

Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places. He must have been trapped by the sinking whilst within his black abyss, or else the world would by now be screaming with fright and frenzy. Who knows the end? What has risen may sink, and what has sunk may rise. Loathsomeness waits and dreams in the deep, and decay spreads over the tottering cities of men

I blame Cthulhu

I know too much, and the cult still lives.

(awesome reference)

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 11:57 AM

We don't know enough, so cults still live.

(t-i-c): only god is awesome.

DaveOrion · 03-14-2007, 12:44 PM

Or.... we think we know everything so Logic Cults abound.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 03:00 PM

logic supports no cults

DaveOrion · 03-14-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

logic supports no cults

Oh really??? This board disproves that theory..

Anybody could now write a thesis based on the responses in this thread...The Social Impact of Cultural Myths Associated with the 2012 Galactic Alignment.....that has a nice ring to it...

Glory's Sun · 03-14-2007, 03:40 PM

Silly Christians.. always pulling the martyr card.

The point here is that it is impossible to predict the future. If you put stock into such things then prepare yourself as you see fit. If you don't then go on and live your life as though everyone else is crazy. Either way just live how you want.

Do I put stock into such things? Of course not. If I put stock into every prophecy that came about, I'd be living in a bomb shelter with 10 years supply of water and rice.

DaveOrion · 03-14-2007, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

Silly Christians.. always pulling the martyr card.

The point here is that it is impossible to predict the future. If you put stock into such things then prepare yourself as you see fit. If you don't then go on and live your life as though everyone else is crazy. Either way just live how you want.

Do I put stock into such things? Of course not. If I put stock into every prophecy that came about, I'd be living in a bomb shelter with 10 years supply of water and rice.

What does Christianity have to do with this thread??? So you're saying that stock market, weather, or population predictions are meaningless??? What about the fractals in the I Ching and the Bible Codes??? Thats not a cultural myth, thats a mathematical formula applied to an ancient book. What about the web bot project???

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 04:39 PM

Hey, Dave? Logic supports no cults. Seriously.
You gotta relax.

politicophile · 03-14-2007, 04:45 PM

two characters

mirevolver · 03-14-2007, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

What does Christianity have to do with this thread??? So you're saying that stock market, weather, or population predictions are meaningless??? What about the fractals in the I Ching and the Bible Codes??? Thats not a cultural myth, thats a mathematical formula applied to an ancient book. What about the web bot project???

We can make guesses about the near future, but those guesses are based on current trends. But they are only guesses. We can say that based on current consumer confidence, the latest quarterly reports of Fortune 500 companies and the current status of short term interest rates that the stock market will go up during the next quarter. But that data does not factor in unexpected events. We could all turn on our TVs next week to find that there has been a Coup d'état in China, and all the Asian stock markets take a nose dive causing a selloff on Wall Street bringing our market to the brink of a crash. We didn't foresee that from our economic trend data.

Weather predictions are the same way. We have instruments everywhere taking current atmospheric data and based on the trends from combining current data with past data to guess what will happen tomorrow. But perhaps overnight, Yellowstone goes ballistic and covers the entire North American continent in volcanic ash. Our atmospheric data couldn't tell us that.

Take for example one of the most famous prophets in the world, Nostradamus. Some read his work and see a quatrain like the one below and think he prophesied World War II and Hitler:

Quote:

Beasts wild with hunger will cross the rivers,
The greater part of the battle will be against Hister.
He will cause great men to be dragged in a cage of iron,
When the son of Germany obeys no law. (II.24)

The first line could have referred to the start of World War II, because the German military had to cross the Oder river in the east to invade Poland, and the Rhine river in the west to invade France. The second line refers to a battle against "Hister" which isn't far off of the name Hitler. But it could also be referring to the ancient name of the Danube river region (Where Hitler was born), "Ister". However the last line is a little odd with the words, "the son of Germany obeys no law." Hitler was born in Austria, not Germany.

But on the other hand, Nostradamus has the following quatrain:

Quote:

The year 1999 seven months
From the sky will come the great King of Terror.
To resuscitate the great king of the Mongols.
Before and after Mars reigns by good luck. (X.72)

So there was supposed to be a King of Terror in July 1999 (or August 1999, by the calendar used in Nostradamus' time). The great king of the Mongols could have implied Asia, and the reference to Mars reigning could have meant there there would be a lot of warfare. But oddly, I don't remember anything happening in July 1999 (or August 1999) involving a lot of war in Asia.

Also the prophecies of Nostradamus have another flaw. There is no record of anyone deciphering a prophecy before the event actually happened. It's only after something happens that we look at a quatrain and say that Nostradamus predicted it.

Predicting the future is about as possible as time travel, which I'm reasonably certain is impossible because there are no substantiated claims of people meeting other people on a vacation from the future.

DaveOrion · 03-14-2007, 06:59 PM

Vauge prophecies are meant to be vauge so they can be applied to anything you wish. I didnt mention Nostradamus, Revelations or any ather vauge prophecies for precisely this reason. Prophecies such as the Bible Codes, seem to spell events out in detail, giving precise dates. I've followed the Codes for about 5 years, and not one of the prophecies for 2003, 4, 5, or 6 ever came true. So at least I can say, I have evidence that the Bible Codes dont work. Instead of the BC's are bullshit....

I also would have to say, after actually doing some reading on both sides of the issue, that the Mayan Calender date of Dec 21 2012 is just a transitional phase from one epoch of time to the next. I dont have enough evidence to say either way on the I Ching fractals, it simply ends at 2012, with some peaks at important events along the way.

I will never say never though....predicting the future may be exceedingly difficult, just as faster than light travel, or time travel may be. But Never Impossible.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-14-2007, 06:59 PM

We could turn on our TVs tomorrow and find that they don't come on.

DaveOrion · 03-14-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

We could turn on our TVs tomorrow and find that they don't come on.

Hmmmmm.....I suppose thats possible....or we could never wake up because a GRB just burned off our atmosphere, and boiled away the oceans....that would be a case where the sum of our decisions today did not make the future tomorrow.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-15-2007, 01:22 PM

It's enough to keep you awake, isn't it? Sleep in peace, man.

DaveOrion · 03-16-2007, 11:47 PM

I sleep fine, if some wildcard event such as a GRB, asteroid impact or super volcano were to occur, oh well.....theres not a hell of a lot I can do about it. They sure do put a damper on any logical, reasonable type of future predications though.....

Infinite_Loser · 03-17-2007, 05:05 AM

I think it's easier for people to believe that there's a logical explanation for everything, as it gives them a false sense of security. Personally, I believe that there are things which can't always be rationalized.

DaveOrion · 03-17-2007, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

I think it's easier for people to believe that there's a logical explanation for everything, as it gives them a false sense of security. Personally, I believe that there are things which can't always be rationalized.

I think you're exactly right. People know that wild card events are possible, but they prefer to think that it wont happen to them. I've followed global warming for 15 years, most people then though I was nuts. 10 years ago I wasn't nuts, just an alarmist. 5 years ago I was getting through but most thought it still wouldn't affect them, only future generations need worry. Now you don't need to be a scientist to see whats going on, and by the time we decide to do something it may be to late. Most people are happy to go about their daily lives and not worry about such things until they're directly affected. They're content in their false sense of security.

SecretMethod70 · 03-17-2007, 02:57 PM

Global warming isn't even remotely related to what's being discussed in this thread. In fact, the evidence for global warming - and the arguments people have been making regarding it - are specifically related to the arguments that have been made against the prophecies outlined here.

Global warming was not prophesied. Instead, the evidence, even very early on, was based on putting together logical, scientific explanations based on past trends and current behaviour.

In fact, I don't really understand the assertion that those who argue against wasting time thinking about prophesies that don't fit in any way, shape, or form with the way we know the world to work are finding any "false sense of security." For one thing, no one's saying that catastrophic events can't happen. You'll notice that there are plenty of people concerned, for example, about a catastrophic asteroid impact. Those concerns are based on past evidence and trends: asteroids have impacted in the past and they will impact again, and sometimes the impact will be so significant as to wipe out the dominant species. Some are more relaxed about the concerns, since the odds are so remote, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who values science and knowledge in any way to claim that it will never happen. We don't know an asteroid impact will happen because of a prophesy: we know because it has happened before.

It is often claimed that, in an atheistic worldview - one which does not allow for prophesy, the universe is a cold, depressing place. There is no false sense of comfort there. While most events will follow the pattern of the past, those events all have no meaning. Katrina, for example, has no meaning. It was a terrible hurricane which killed many people for no reason at all. They are not going to a better place for their suffering, they are just dead. That's not comforting at all.

On the other hand, I live in Chicago and feel relatively confident that I will not be taken out by a giant tsunami anytime soon. Could it happen? Well...sure, perhaps if there was a significant enough asteroid impact in one of the oceans. Is it likely, not particularly. The knowledge that it's not likely to happen isn't comforting, just like the knowledge that it COULD happen isn't anything to be afraid of. It is what it is: just knowledge. I could choose to focus on the extremely remote possibility of it, and live my life worried about something that is almost certain to not effect me, or I can live with the knowledge that it may happen, but choose to live my life to its fullest not worrying about such remote things.

Prophesy, on the other hand, provides a whole ton of comfort. See, prophesy requires some greater force behind it. To make the example more concise, let's look at prophesy from a Christian perspective and specifically assume that there is a prophesy regarding a great tsunami, like I just mentioned previously. The great thing about that, assuming I'm Christian, is that if the prophesy is true, there is something else to follow after I'm killed by the tsunami. If I truly believe in such prophesies, I'm likely to be very careful to live according to the rules of the god represented in the prophesy, and therefore able to feel confident that I really have nothing to worry about. If there's any false sense of security, it is arguably there.

Prophesy allows for tragic events to have meaning. If the prophesy is more specific, such as the assassination of a world leader, then there is comfort that such acts are part of a Greater Narrative. And, the large majority of the time, that narrative includes Good prevailing in the end. No reason to worry there. If the prophesy is more globally tragic, such as a terrible tsunami, it provides comfort beyond just knowing it's part of a Great Narrative, but also in the knowledge that, if one dies as a result of the prophecy, they have something to look forward to afterwards.

Which brings me to the most important effect of prophecy. How does someone know that they don't have to worry about either 1) being killed by the tragic, prophesied event, or 2) what happens after dying in the tragic, prophesied event? They do everything they're told to by the religion which claims the prophesy. "Do this, and you will be protected from the great terrible things to come." The person who follows the rules - let's say, goes to church every Sunday - then lives with a false sense of security that even if an asteroid does impact the ocean and cause a giant tsunami they really don't have to worry about it. It is those people who don't particularly concern themselves with researching technologies to prevent potential asteroid impacts, or the catastrophic effects of global warming. These tragic things are all just part of God's Plan, and those who do what they're told have nothing to worry about.

It's all a matter of perspective. To the person who believes in prophecy, those who don't will surely look like they have a false sense of security. That is because believing in such prophesies requires living in fear of them and persistently concerning oneself with what must be done to prevent succumbing to their negative effects. There are only two options then: a false sense of security, or irrational fear. From that perspective, one who doesn't follow the prophesies either isn't as secure as you are, or isn't sufficiently afraid of what you are, respectively.

On the other hand, someone who does not believe in such prophesies, but does understand that abnormal events do occur, has what they believe to be a healthy sense of realism about the situation. Is it possible that an asteroid will impact the earth? Absolutely. Should we dedicate some energy to detecting such asteroids and developing methods to prevent such impacts? Absolutely. Should we be any more than only barely worried about such impacts? No. But, as the boy scouts say, be prepared.

In sum, prophesy is simply cosmological and mental terrorism.

DaveOrion · 03-17-2007, 03:26 PM

As far as I know, if I want to mention a subject as an example, that has a correlation to the matter being discussed, that is my perogative. Others mentioned wild card events before I did, so I don't see why global warming, isn't relevant to the discussion. Since a 20 ft rise in sea level could displace millions of people, and destroy billions of dollars worth of property, that seems relevant to me.

SecretMethod70 · 03-17-2007, 04:25 PM

My point wasn't that you shouldn't mention it, my point is that it's not a prophesy in any way. In fact, it is exactly what the detractors in this thread are asking of the prophesy in the original post: something with evidence, extrapolating the future based off of past trends and current knowledge. Prophesy is necessarily not that.

03-13-2007, 02:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Galactic Alignment 2012 I've heard 2012 mentioned from several sources, the Mayan Calander, the I Ching, the Bible Codes, Native American Prophecy, on and on. Is this just a galactic alignment or is our world about to be changed forever??? http://alignment2012.com/ Over 2,000 years ago the early Maya formulated a profound galactic cosmology. They saw that the sun, on the winter solstice, was slowly moving toward the heart of the galaxy. Naturally enough, with their uncorrupted intelligence intact, they suspected that the world would go through a transformation when the solar and the galactic planes aligned. They devised their Long Count calendar to target when the cosmic alignment would maximize, and that time is AD 2012. We are lucky that the brilliant skywatchers who devised the 2012 calendar left carved monuments for us to decode, and that they have survived the decay of centuries, so that we can know exactly what they prophesied and believed about 2012. http://www.vitalsignspublishing.co.u...tract2012.html Terence and Dennis McKenna had published a book in 1975, The Invisible Landscape, in which they showed that the Chinese oracle, the I Ching, had originally been used as a lunar calendar in which the 64 six-line hexagrams – 384 lines in all – had represented the 384 days in a thirteen-month lunar year. Following their 1971 journey down to the Amazon jungle, in which the brothers had a shared hallucinogenic experience, they developed their insights and devised a method by which to convert the Chinese Book of Changes – the I Ching – into a complex wave that mapped the timing of all the changes in the universe, or “the ingression of novelty into space-time”. The complex wave was composed of a hierarchy of waves – each one of a magnitude 64 times greater than the one below it – that mapped all change, from sub-atomic event durations up to the duration of the three-dimensional physical universe. The explosion of the atomic bombs at the end of the Second World War was taken to be a sufficiently novel event that it should correlate to a major peak on the Timewave, and when lined up with the Gregorian calendar it was found that late in 2012 AD all the waves and sub-waves would peak together, signifying “concrescence” – an evolutionary pinnacle and dimensional transition. http://www.exodus2006.com/2012.htm Codes for 2012 RETYPED TRANSCRIPT OF THE COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS HELD IN EAGLE BUTTE, SOUTH DAKOTA ON OCTOBER 4, 2005, REGULAR OCTOBER SESSION. http://www.2012endofdays.org/more/Na...n-prophecy.php NATIVE AMERICAN PROPHECY American Indians are a diverse ethnic group. Their languages, customs, social systems varied greatly. One common characteristic found in many Indian nations was an affinity to the spiritual side of life. Out of this came man prophecies. One of the most fascinating set of prophecies comes out of the Hopi nation located in the Southwestern United States. Many prophecies foretold by the Hopi appear to have come true. Some of these are: "The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left. "This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder. "This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies." "This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle." "This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron." "This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web." "This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun." "This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it." "This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom. "And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease. "These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying. Overall, the theme of Hopi prophecy is that the Earth is going to soon go through a great purification and that humanity can make the decision as to how extreme this purification will be. Their belief is that the world goes through a period of destruction and renewal and that we are about to enter into a new age, the 5th world (or 6th depending upon the source). __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-13-2007, 02:14 PM	#2 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:18 PM..

03-13-2007, 02:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:18 PM..

03-13-2007, 02:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Painted Pleasure Burn	Will this affect me in any way? __________________ I came across a nice rack at the department store

03-13-2007, 03:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:17 PM..

03-13-2007, 05:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Hmm the last prophecy didn't come true. Let's look forward to the next one. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

03-13-2007, 08:20 PM	#14 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:17 PM..

03-13-2007, 08:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I didnt suggest anything, I asked for opinions, but never stated my own. I copy & pasted a few paragraphs and posted some links. Thats all. Once again, anyone that doesnt agree with you is some how 'flawed'. What about computers??? Can they predict the future??? http://urbansurvival.com/simplebots.htm __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-14-2007, 06:34 AM	#16 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	The world changes forever every day. The rates are variable, and the meanings, the same. As time passes we must pass through time... It's good stuff, isn't it? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT Last edited by Ourcrazymodern?; 03-14-2007 at 06:37 AM..

03-14-2007, 06:42 AM	#17 (permalink)
Crack Misanthropic Location: Ohio! yay!	Cthulhu still lives, too, I suppose, again in that chasm of stone which has shielded him since the sun was young. His accursed city is sunken once more, for the Vigilant sailed over the spot after the April storm; but his ministers on earth still bellow and prance and slay around idol-capped monoliths in lonely places. He must have been trapped by the sinking whilst within his black abyss, or else the world would by now be screaming with fright and frenzy. Who knows the end? What has risen may sink, and what has sunk may rise. Loathsomeness waits and dreams in the deep, and decay spreads over the tottering cities of men I blame Cthulhu __________________ Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex. ~Halx

03-14-2007, 07:07 AM	#18 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	See? The world changed again! Cthulwho never existed. If we use our imaginations as engines of belief rather than creation there will come into existence no tall buildings or flying machines. Oops! They're already here! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-14-2007, 07:55 AM	#19 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	.. Last edited by flat5; 05-03-2008 at 02:31 AM..

03-14-2007, 08:10 AM	#20 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	We're planning on a group trip to the Mayan pyramids. It's going to be a friends from college reunion. Should be fun. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

03-14-2007, 11:57 AM	#22 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	We don't know enough, so cults still live. (t-i-c): only god is awesome. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-14-2007, 12:44 PM	#23 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Or.... we think we know everything so Logic Cults abound. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-14-2007, 03:00 PM	#24 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	logic supports no cults __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-14-2007, 03:40 PM	#26 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	Silly Christians.. always pulling the martyr card. The point here is that it is impossible to predict the future. If you put stock into such things then prepare yourself as you see fit. If you don't then go on and live your life as though everyone else is crazy. Either way just live how you want. Do I put stock into such things? Of course not. If I put stock into every prophecy that came about, I'd be living in a bomb shelter with 10 years supply of water and rice.

03-14-2007, 04:39 PM	#28 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Hey, Dave? Logic supports no cults. Seriously. You gotta relax. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-14-2007, 04:45 PM	#29 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	two characters __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty Last edited by politicophile; 02-09-2008 at 08:15 PM..

03-14-2007, 06:59 PM	#31 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Vauge prophecies are meant to be vauge so they can be applied to anything you wish. I didnt mention Nostradamus, Revelations or any ather vauge prophecies for precisely this reason. Prophecies such as the Bible Codes, seem to spell events out in detail, giving precise dates. I've followed the Codes for about 5 years, and not one of the prophecies for 2003, 4, 5, or 6 ever came true. So at least I can say, I have evidence that the Bible Codes dont work. Instead of the BC's are bullshit.... I also would have to say, after actually doing some reading on both sides of the issue, that the Mayan Calender date of Dec 21 2012 is just a transitional phase from one epoch of time to the next. I dont have enough evidence to say either way on the I Ching fractals, it simply ends at 2012, with some peaks at important events along the way. I will never say never though....predicting the future may be exceedingly difficult, just as faster than light travel, or time travel may be. But Never Impossible. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-14-2007, 06:59 PM	#32 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	We could turn on our TVs tomorrow and find that they don't come on. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-15-2007, 01:22 PM	#34 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	It's enough to keep you awake, isn't it? Sleep in peace, man. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-16-2007, 11:47 PM	#35 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I sleep fine, if some wildcard event such as a GRB, asteroid impact or super volcano were to occur, oh well.....theres not a hell of a lot I can do about it. They sure do put a damper on any logical, reasonable type of future predications though..... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-17-2007, 05:05 AM	#36 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	I think it's easier for people to believe that there's a logical explanation for everything, as it gives them a false sense of security. Personally, I believe that there are things which can't always be rationalized. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

03-17-2007, 02:57 PM	#38 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Global warming isn't even remotely related to what's being discussed in this thread. In fact, the evidence for global warming - and the arguments people have been making regarding it - are specifically related to the arguments that have been made against the prophecies outlined here. Global warming was not prophesied. Instead, the evidence, even very early on, was based on putting together logical, scientific explanations based on past trends and current behaviour. In fact, I don't really understand the assertion that those who argue against wasting time thinking about prophesies that don't fit in any way, shape, or form with the way we know the world to work are finding any "false sense of security." For one thing, no one's saying that catastrophic events can't happen. You'll notice that there are plenty of people concerned, for example, about a catastrophic asteroid impact. Those concerns are based on past evidence and trends: asteroids have impacted in the past and they will impact again, and sometimes the impact will be so significant as to wipe out the dominant species. Some are more relaxed about the concerns, since the odds are so remote, but you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who values science and knowledge in any way to claim that it will never happen. We don't know an asteroid impact will happen because of a prophesy: we know because it has happened before. It is often claimed that, in an atheistic worldview - one which does not allow for prophesy, the universe is a cold, depressing place. There is no false sense of comfort there. While most events will follow the pattern of the past, those events all have no meaning. Katrina, for example, has no meaning. It was a terrible hurricane which killed many people for no reason at all. They are not going to a better place for their suffering, they are just dead. That's not comforting at all. On the other hand, I live in Chicago and feel relatively confident that I will not be taken out by a giant tsunami anytime soon. Could it happen? Well...sure, perhaps if there was a significant enough asteroid impact in one of the oceans. Is it likely, not particularly. The knowledge that it's not likely to happen isn't comforting, just like the knowledge that it COULD happen isn't anything to be afraid of. It is what it is: just knowledge. I could choose to focus on the extremely remote possibility of it, and live my life worried about something that is almost certain to not effect me, or I can live with the knowledge that it may happen, but choose to live my life to its fullest not worrying about such remote things. Prophesy, on the other hand, provides a whole ton of comfort. See, prophesy requires some greater force behind it. To make the example more concise, let's look at prophesy from a Christian perspective and specifically assume that there is a prophesy regarding a great tsunami, like I just mentioned previously. The great thing about that, assuming I'm Christian, is that if the prophesy is true, there is something else to follow after I'm killed by the tsunami. If I truly believe in such prophesies, I'm likely to be very careful to live according to the rules of the god represented in the prophesy, and therefore able to feel confident that I really have nothing to worry about. If there's any false sense of security, it is arguably there. Prophesy allows for tragic events to have meaning. If the prophesy is more specific, such as the assassination of a world leader, then there is comfort that such acts are part of a Greater Narrative. And, the large majority of the time, that narrative includes Good prevailing in the end. No reason to worry there. If the prophesy is more globally tragic, such as a terrible tsunami, it provides comfort beyond just knowing it's part of a Great Narrative, but also in the knowledge that, if one dies as a result of the prophecy, they have something to look forward to afterwards. Which brings me to the most important effect of prophecy. How does someone know that they don't have to worry about either 1) being killed by the tragic, prophesied event, or 2) what happens after dying in the tragic, prophesied event? They do everything they're told to by the religion which claims the prophesy. "Do this, and you will be protected from the great terrible things to come." The person who follows the rules - let's say, goes to church every Sunday - then lives with a false sense of security that even if an asteroid does impact the ocean and cause a giant tsunami they really don't have to worry about it. It is those people who don't particularly concern themselves with researching technologies to prevent potential asteroid impacts, or the catastrophic effects of global warming. These tragic things are all just part of God's Plan, and those who do what they're told have nothing to worry about. It's all a matter of perspective. To the person who believes in prophecy, those who don't will surely look like they have a false sense of security. That is because believing in such prophesies requires living in fear of them and persistently concerning oneself with what must be done to prevent succumbing to their negative effects. There are only two options then: a false sense of security, or irrational fear. From that perspective, one who doesn't follow the prophesies either isn't as secure as you are, or isn't sufficiently afraid of what you are, respectively. On the other hand, someone who does not believe in such prophesies, but does understand that abnormal events do occur, has what they believe to be a healthy sense of realism about the situation. Is it possible that an asteroid will impact the earth? Absolutely. Should we dedicate some energy to detecting such asteroids and developing methods to prevent such impacts? Absolutely. Should we be any more than only barely worried about such impacts? No. But, as the boy scouts say, be prepared. In sum, prophesy is simply cosmological and mental terrorism. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

03-17-2007, 03:26 PM	#39 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	As far as I know, if I want to mention a subject as an example, that has a correlation to the matter being discussed, that is my perogative. Others mentioned wild card events before I did, so I don't see why global warming, isn't relevant to the discussion. Since a 20 ft rise in sea level could displace millions of people, and destroy billions of dollars worth of property, that seems relevant to me. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-17-2007, 04:25 PM	#40 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	My point wasn't that you shouldn't mention it, my point is that it's not a prophesy in any way. In fact, it is exactly what the detractors in this thread are asking of the prophesy in the original post: something with evidence, extrapolating the future based off of past trends and current knowledge. Prophesy is necessarily not that. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling