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jorgelito · 03-10-2007, 05:45 PM

Militant atheist? I thought you were a pacifist. Interesting....

DaveOrion · 03-10-2007, 05:55 PM

Destructive??? In what way??? I've found that believe in a higher being, has brought meaning and structure to my life that was never there before. My father was an alcoholic, who claimed to be a Methodist. After going to church one Sunday, at about age 8, I decided to pick up a Bible to try to read understand what all the talk was actually about. My father had been drinking, saw me reading, and soon laughed out loud and proclaimed that was for weaklings. I didnt pick up the Bible again for 14 years. Strange what an impact your childhood has on you. It was his idea for me to join the army, said it would make a 'man' outta me. When I told him I had joined and had signed up as a combat medic, because I wanted to help people, you could actually see the blood drain away from his face. I suppose helping people was also for weaklings. I think thats all I'll 'share' for now. Maybe that'll give you some insight into what makes me tick.

Infinite_Loser · 03-10-2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

I don't understand your contempt for the Flying Spaghetti Monster. shakran also found it insulting but I don't understand why other than, perhaps, that it exposes a fundamental flaw in religious reasoning but I don't see how that's something to get upset over. I mean, if I'm wrong about something, I'd sure as hell want someone to point it out to me. Leaving me in ignorance isn't going to help me, ever... However, I'm now really going too far on a conjecture. I'd ask what, specifically, is so wrong with the Flying Spaghetti Monster but, you know...

*Takes a deep breath*

The only thing wrong with the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is that people like to adopt a "If-there's-no-scientific-evidence-of-it-then-it-must-not-exist" argument when, in actuality, their argument should be "If-there's-no-scientific-evidence-of-it-then-it-might-exist-outside-of-the-realm-of-science" (Seeing as how, you know, science is limited to the natural world, is based on, you know, induction and can only, you know, measure the known rather than the, you know, unknown).

But-- Hey!-- Science is what you make of it, right?

Edit: Does anyone realize how circular the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is? You'll say prove him, I'll say disprove him and we'll ultimately end up back at square one.

Willravel · 03-10-2007, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Militant atheist? I thought you were a pacifist. Interesting....

I've jokingly been referred to that way. I'm still a pacifist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Destructive??? In what way??? I've found that believe in a higher being, has brought meaning and structure to my life that was never there before. My father was an alcoholic, who claimed to be a Methodist. After going to church one Sunday, at about age 8, I decided to pick up a Bible to try to read understand what all the talk was actually about. My father had been drinking, saw me reading, and soon laughed out loud and proclaimed that was for weaklings. I didn't pick up the Bible again for 14 years. Strange what an impact your childhood has on you. It was his idea for me to join the army, said it would make a 'man' outta me. When I told him I had joined and had signed up as a combat medic, because I wanted to help people, you could actually see the blood drain away from his face. I suppose helping people was also for weaklings. I think thats all I'll 'share' for now. Maybe that'll give you some insight into what makes me tick.

I see it as being personally destructive that they only way someone can give their life meaning is to exchange fiction for reality. Again, I once was neck deep in it, but now I'm free to find meaning in reality, if I so choose.

I'm sorry your father treated you badly, but I'm not 100% sure what that has to do with this. Are you a believer because of your dad's very poor behavior? In spite of it? I'm not sure what to infer from the story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

*Takes a deep breath*

The only thing wrong with the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is that people like to adopt a "If-there's-no-scientific-evidence-of-it-then-it-must-not-exist" argument when, in actuality, their argument should be "If-there's-no-scientific-evidence-of-it-then-it-might-exist-outside-of-the-realm-of-science" (Seeing as how, you know, science is limited to the natural world, is based on, you know, induction and can only, you know, measure the known rather than the, you know, unknown).

But-- Hey!-- Science is what you make of it, right?

Edit: Does anyone realize how circular the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is? You'll say prove him, I'll say disprove him and we'll ultimately end up back at square one.

I'm amazed you don't get this. The idea is that you realize how circular the logic behind the existence of god is by creating a similar creature with circular logic to point it out.

What hasn't been proven by science yet is science fiction. Are you saying you worship science fiction?

KnifeMissile · 03-10-2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

The only thing wrong with the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is that people like to adopt a "If-there's-no-scientific-evidence-of-it-then-it-must-not-exist" argument when, in actuality, their argument should be "If-there's-no-scientific-evidence-of-it-then-it-might-exist-outside-of-the-realm-of-science" (Seeing as how, you know, science is limited to the natural world, is based on, you know, induction and can only, you know, measure the known rather than the, you know, unknown).

I agree that matters of God or the Flying Spaghetti Monster are not scientific questions since they fail a very important criteria of science. The argument isn't based on science, it's based on common sense. There are an infinite number of unscientific, metaphysical things one can choose to believe in. We (you and I) happen to not believe in almost all of them. Atheists merely choose to believe in (at least) one less because that one unscientific, metaphysical thing is no different than any of the others. It's perfectly reasonable to not believe in things that, by definition, have nothing to do with reality.

Now, I understand that this is not your complaint but, rather, that people will claim scientific evidence against God's existence. This has nothing to do with the Flying Spaghetti monster. I suspect that what they're really talking about is that there is scientific evidence against Biblical literalism...

Quote:

But-- Hey!-- Science is what you make of it, right?

I have no idea what this means...

Quote:

Edit: Does anyone realize how circular the Flying Spaghetti Monster argument is? You'll say prove him, I'll say disprove him and we'll ultimately end up back at square one.

I'm not sure if this is what is meant by "circular reasoning." It's certainly not something that can be intelligently discussed. As you have pointed out, there's nothing either of us can say about His existence or lack, thereof. However, there are unfortunate side effects to a belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, such as denying the truth (as much as anything in science is true) of evolution. Do you see the issue, here? We're taking real action motivated by fairy tales...

It should probably be noted that the sole purpose of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is to debase the Intelligent Design movement, in particular, and not necessarily general deism...

Infinite_Loser · 03-10-2007, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm amazed you don't get this. The idea is that you realize how circular the logic behind the existence of god is by creating a similar creature with circular logic to point it out.

Erm... I think you misread my post.

Quote:

What hasn't been proven by science yet is science fiction. Are you saying you worship science fiction?

That's fine, as I don't base my faith in science. Whatever science has to say-- Or in this case, doesn't have to say-- Regarding the existence of God doesn't matter to me.

DaveOrion · 03-11-2007, 03:49 AM

And round and round we go, where this stops only God Knows.....or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm kidding!!! Endless discussion though.....

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-11-2007, 04:58 AM

Reality for fiction - if an even exchange I see everyone standing on their heads.

DaveOrion · 03-11-2007, 05:28 AM

What is reality??? Only what your mind tells you it is. We may all be powering a self aware machine civilization, and our reality is only mind control so we'll all be content little batteries.....the matrix??? Perhaps.....

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-11-2007, 01:00 PM

Since it doesn't end when our minds do reality exists outside them.

Beliefs only exist within them.

Infinite_Loser · 03-11-2007, 07:53 PM

Or... Our universe could be nothing more than a computer program scheduled for deletion in a few hundred years.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-13-2007, 06:03 AM

You might have that right, but I highly doubt it. Our imaginations are both what scare us and allow us to grow. Our imaginations have been oppressing us and enlightening us throughout history, and before that(?) That must be another story... Our universe pre-dated computers, or postdated them by billions of years. REALITY EXISTS OUTSIDE OUR MINDS!

03-10-2007, 05:55 PM	#42 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Destructive??? In what way??? I've found that believe in a higher being, has brought meaning and structure to my life that was never there before. My father was an alcoholic, who claimed to be a Methodist. After going to church one Sunday, at about age 8, I decided to pick up a Bible to try to read understand what all the talk was actually about. My father had been drinking, saw me reading, and soon laughed out loud and proclaimed that was for weaklings. I didnt pick up the Bible again for 14 years. Strange what an impact your childhood has on you. It was his idea for me to join the army, said it would make a 'man' outta me. When I told him I had joined and had signed up as a combat medic, because I wanted to help people, you could actually see the blood drain away from his face. I suppose helping people was also for weaklings. I think thats all I'll 'share' for now. Maybe that'll give you some insight into what makes me tick. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-11-2007, 03:49 AM	#47 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	And round and round we go, where this stops only God Knows.....or the flying spaghetti monster. I'm kidding!!! Endless discussion though..... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-11-2007, 04:58 AM	#48 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Reality for fiction - if an even exchange I see everyone standing on their heads. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-11-2007, 05:28 AM	#49 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	What is reality??? Only what your mind tells you it is. We may all be powering a self aware machine civilization, and our reality is only mind control so we'll all be content little batteries.....the matrix??? Perhaps..... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

03-11-2007, 01:00 PM	#50 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Since it doesn't end when our minds do reality exists outside them. Beliefs only exist within them. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-10-2007, 05:45 PM	#41 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Militant atheist? I thought you were a pacifist. Interesting....

03-11-2007, 07:53 PM	#51 (permalink)
Infinite_Loser Junkie Location: Lake Mary, FL	Or... Our universe could be nothing more than a computer program scheduled for deletion in a few hundred years. __________________ I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

03-13-2007, 06:03 AM	#52 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	You might have that right, but I highly doubt it. Our imaginations are both what scare us and allow us to grow. Our imaginations have been oppressing us and enlightening us throughout history, and before that(?) That must be another story... Our universe pre-dated computers, or postdated them by billions of years. REALITY EXISTS OUTSIDE OUR MINDS! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT