5150 tries to break into my sister's house this morn, is already released - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sultana · 02-13-2007, 10:44 AM

I am pretty upset, and I don't have all the information, but some 5150--Mentally disturbed person--tried to break into my sister's home ths morning. Took the police an hour to arrive. She had to call back after 30 minutes, as no one had responded! The first dispatcher advised her to tell him to go away.

Umm, he's only over 6 ft tall and 200+ lbs and very probably on drugs (although apparently he doesn't want to take his anti-psychotics)...she didn't want him to know she was even inside (he used to live in that complex, so he knows there's no man living there with her).

They caught him in the act (yeah, he was trying to get in at all the windows for an hour, while my sister waited inside with a basebal bat, praying none of her little boys would wake up). Took him away. Didn't even knock on the door or talk to my sister ("Gee, I wonder if that lady who called 911 twice is still alive?")

He's already been released. Apparantly if someone is categorized as 5150, they just take them from the scene and let them go...WTF? When she asked for a copy of the police report, she was told there wasn't any.

The guy at the desk acted like she was stupid for being upset "What do you want me to do about it?" He asked.

She's going to the police station to talk to the Watch Commander, but I fear they're not going to give a shit until maybe he manages to break in and rape or kill her. Apparantly he had told one of her neighbors that he wanted to f*ck her, but the neighbor didn't think to mention this to my sister, partially because he had recently been arrested for something else and folks thought he'd stay in jail for longer than an hour, and because the neighbor didn't want to scare my sister. Thanks, man. Good job there.

I just don't know what to do. When the police don't give a shit, who is going to help you?

My sister is two weeks away from moving out of that shithole, she's moved heaven and earth to afford a safe place for her family, and some mental nut case can just terrorize her and anyone else he fancies at his leisure. I guess we should wait until he actually gets in next time to ask for police assistance.

ShaniFaye · 02-13-2007, 10:53 AM

After living in the house with my crack head ex and his crack head g/f for two years, Dave and I learned real quick the cops dont give a shit about anything. They were out there almost everyday for some jerry springer reason or another and even when I told them they were dealing crack out of the house they wouldnt even come in.

It totally killed my respect for the police in my area. Calls and emails to the sheriff's office were never returned (even people that emailed on my behalf were ignored)

Im very sorry for your sister that she had to go thru this

Ourcrazymodern? · 02-13-2007, 11:15 AM

I'm feeling for you, Sultana, and hoping your sister will be alright. The police around here don't behave like yours have, maybe only because they're less busy, I don't know. Maybe you should go stay with her for awhile, and have a side-arm available?

ASU2003 · 02-13-2007, 11:16 AM

The cops don't seem to be able to prevent crime from happening. They might be able to stop a crime in progress or to investigate and write reports of what happened. But even then it's not enough sometimes. And lots of people become victims before the police are able to stop some people.

Does she live in a state where you can shoot to kill someone who enters your home? Have her ask the cops if she should shoot him in the chest or head next time he comes into her place. Maybe not, that could be contrived as premeditated murder. Have her ask the cops where to get a handgun license.

Bill O'Rights · 02-13-2007, 11:56 AM

Ex-cop here...weighing in.

Do not mistake anything that I am about to say as condoning the actions, and or inactions, of the Police Department, in your sister's area.

From the sounds of it...it's classic burnout. You are looking at the situation from a completly black perspective. Somewhere out there is an advocate for the mentally handicapped that is going to view it from a completelly white perspective. (the actual reality is, more like as not, somewhere in between...the gray area). Now...you have the perpetrator's rights to consider. (yes...he does have rights.) So...between the perpetrator's rights, and his advocacy group. (there is one, trust me) The police have to walk a silk fine line to avoid the case being thrown out.
Now comes the "victim", or plaintif, if you will...ie, your sister. She wants something done about this creep. And NOW. Can't blame her. So would any other reasonable person. So now...the cops are taking it on both sides of the chin. Now come the attorneys. "Poor, poor, Mr. Perpetrator. He was never hugged as a child. He has problems that you will never understand. And to top that off...he was traumatized by the police. Yes...traumatized. He deserves compensation. But...we'll save that for the civil trial. My client, in reality didn't do anything but try to open a window, to say hello, to the plantif. No one was hurt. He never actually entered the dwelling..."

See where I'm going with this? The case is going nowhere. There is no reason to fill out a report. There is no way, and I mean no way to win, as a cop. Were these cops asses? Yeah. No doubt. But I've been in thier shoes, and walked the mile. It's not them, so much as it's the judicial system that failed your sister.

I would, in all sincerity, advise your sister to purchase a handgun, and learn how to keep and use it safely. Take a class with her. They're really not as scary as they seem.

analog · 02-13-2007, 12:12 PM

Of course, with all respect, the other side of the coin is that he lurked around for an hour and never actually broke in. Never actually got inside, didn't actually do anything but be creepy outside and "attempt" to get in. If it was a house, they could at least get him on trespassing- but since it's an apartment/condo complex, they'd have to receive the complaint from the complex office to trespass him off the entire complex property.

Also keep in mind that being categorized as "mentally disturbed" means that there is something wrong with him. While I understand It's a scary situation, we don't have asylums here in the US like we used to. Unfortunately, the government has failed its mentally ill citizens.

There's no reason why he wouldn't be back on the street. Even if he wasn't classified as a "mentally disturbed" person, he'd have to have caused damage to an entrance point consistent with forced entry. Just walking around for an hour pulling at windows doesn't cut it, by law.

So... yes, it sucks, and yes, it's unfortunate, but there's not much more that can be expected to happen. It's like what they do with stalkers... unless you can prove harm or direct threat of harm, you've got nothing... and even then, until you're bleeding or they're literally on your property, the most you normally get is a restraining order.

Elphaba · 02-13-2007, 12:23 PM

Sultana, I think she has enough cause to request a restraining order given what the neighbor told her and the subsequent event. With that, the police have an obligation to respond.

Bill O'Rights · 02-13-2007, 12:41 PM

Elph, the police have an "obligation" to respond to every 911 call. Mostly, it's a matter of prioritization. When you have 10 times the number of calls, as you have responding officers...somethings gonna get backburnered. Law Enforcement doesn't offer a "30 minutes, or your next mugging's free" guarantee. The restraining order does, however, put a little more bite into the sentencing...after the fact.

Sultana · 02-13-2007, 01:02 PM

The only reason he didn't get in is because she has two steel U-clamps with the screw through it...I'm sure I'm not describing it well..on each window. He got all the windows opne, but no further than the clamp (as an aside, that $.50 piece of hardware on each window has kept both me and my sister from being broken into more than once. I *highly* recommend everyone keep those on their windows!!)

Well, more news. Apparantly last night his grandmother was taking his ass back to the pysch ward or where ever, when he decided not to go and beat her up. He was arrested for that (yes, last night), and released at 5:30 am today (on bail, I think). He was at my sister's house at 6:00 am. Picked up again by the cops at 7 am. released by them because in their words, "He said he wasn't doing anything."

Well, he's been arrested again. Seems that after he got home this morning, he broke into his next-door neighbors' house and beat the crap out of them.

I wonder how long he'll stay in this afternoon. Or dare I hope that they might actually deign to protect the public or something?

BoR, I do understand what you are saying. I'll talk to my sister, but re: a gun, with three little boys in the house, I just don't feel comfortable with that. It's a tough position.

Analog, I agree the country has failed the mentally ill. I'd like to imagine that this guy (in his right mind) would be horrified by the things he's doing. But it's hard to be highly sympathetic when he has the meds to help him not hurt people, and he doesn't want to take them.

pig · 02-13-2007, 01:47 PM

Sultana, do you and Jack1.0 have enough room to put them up for a couple of weeks until this is passed / she's in the new place? It sucks, but her living somewhere else for a couple of weeks might be the safest alternative for the short term. The handgun would have at least a 7 day waiting period, I believe - unless she gets it hot or from a family member, etc. Then again, you can do a lot with a baseball bat - you just don't want to have to mess with it.

Really horrible situation. Best of luck to y'all.

Sultana · 02-13-2007, 02:06 PM

Yes, we have a guest room I've already told her she and the boys are welcome to stay in until they can get into the new place.

We are hoping that this latest assault will keep him behind bars for a while, or at least get him checked into a mental health unit or something. If he's in jail or whatever, she'll likely not feel the need to stay with us. But I can guarantee this will get her moving her stuff out of there even faster than she was planning before!

analog · 02-13-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sultana

Analog, I agree the country has failed the mentally ill. I'd like to imagine that this guy (in his right mind) would be horrified by the things he's doing. But it's hard to be highly sympathetic when he has the meds to help him not hurt people, and he doesn't want to take them.

It sucks that this happened, and I feel for her fright of having to deal with a person of diminished mental/psychological reasoning/capacity... the only issue with the meds is that once someone is off of them, they're no longer the rational human that knows taking them is the right thing to do. Most of the time, they think someone is trying to poison them, or they think they're fine and are just insulted that someone is telling them to take a pill.

I'm glad she'll be out of there soon, though.

Sultana · 02-13-2007, 02:22 PM

Yeah, I always wonder why don't the voices in people's heads tell them to feed the hungry or wash their car or something useful. Nooo, instead it's always "They're touching your food, kill them!"

Mister Coaster · 02-13-2007, 02:29 PM

I hear you. Bill, but the whole "He hasn't done anything yet" bullshit doesn't hold water when he actually DOES do something. The mother/neighbor getting broken into/beaten up never had to happen if this psycho was treated like the criminal he is.

Hopefully this guy will get what's coming to him.

MageB420666 · 02-13-2007, 02:31 PM

Yeah, I would definitly have your sister come stay with you until she can completly leave that place. People that are off of their psych medications are very, very scary and irrational. I know, I work in a psych hospital(again...). They can lash out with no external warning or stimulus. I would not suggest that your sister or anyone other than the police try to confront this guy, it's just asking for trouble.

I'd also research the laws in your state concerning involuntary commitment of a person into a psych hospital. They differ from state to state. I know here in Tennessee the person either has to be an immediate threat to their self or others before they can be commited. In your state its possible that they can't be commited unless they are a threat to themselves. Meaning that the police have very little they are able to do concerning this guy.

pig · 02-13-2007, 02:33 PM

Sultana, I assume y'all are calling the po-po regularly to find out if he's made bail? I'd bet on rather safe than sorry with the three kids involved. i really don't think i'd give her a choice if you have that kind of hand with her.

MageB420666 · 02-13-2007, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

I hear you. Bill, but the whole "He hasn't done anything yet" bullshit doesn't hold water when he actually DOES do something. The mother/neighbor getting broken into/beaten up never had to happen if this psycho was treated like the criminal he is.

Hopefully this guy will get what's coming to him.

Legally, his condition is seen as nothing different than him being mentally handicapped. Meaning he is legally seen as someone with a disease, not as a criminal. And he's not necessarily a criminal.... he could be paranoid and delusional and thought she was a demon. Yes, people really do have those delusions.

smooth · 02-13-2007, 03:07 PM

If you do go the gun route, something like a trigger lock or gun safe and seperated ammunition would give her the means to defend herself in a non-spontaneous way. Given your description, it sounds like she'd have ample time to retrieve the weapon and arm herself before an immediate threat materializd.

Alternatively, and perhaps more in line with what might be acceptable to you and/or your sister, she could think about securing non-lethal weapons. The bat is one option, but so is a tazer--something she could weild from a distance. Then at least she could incapacitate the intruder if he was able to make it into the home, which might be more difficult with a weapon dependent upon brute strenght (like the bat).

Plus, pragmatically, it takes a lot to put someone down with a bat. Not necessarily from a physical standpoint, but from a mental one. It's a gruesome task to beat another human being to the point that he is absolutely neutralized and no longer a threat--especially so if he's large, strong, and mentally unstable. The fact that she's defending her children might trigger the necessary response and moxy, but the last thing I'd think she would want would be to not finish the job and for the guy to get up. I'm sorry if that description is over the top, but it's been my experience and I'd personally voice my concern that she ought to look for an incapacitating weapon that doesn't take much physical or mental strenght to effect her will ont this threat.

And I'd like to hear more about these clamps with a better description, if you're recommending that others install them. I'd like them for our windows.

Yakk · 02-13-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

See where I'm going with this? The case is going nowhere. There is no reason to fill out a report. There is no way, and I mean no way to win, as a cop. Were these cops asses? Yeah. No doubt. But I've been in thier shoes, and walked the mile. It's not them, so much as it's the judicial system that failed your sister.

There is a reason to fill out a report. The existance of the report provides evidence that could improve Sultana's chances of getting a restraining order.

The existance and violation of a restraining order improves the chances of being able to get the person arrested. This could, possibly, compell the state to place the person in treatment.

Lacking any police report, nothing happened. There is no record of harrassment.

What, exactly, is the downside to filing a report, stating that the person in question was picked up and why? What, exactly, is the downside of speaking to the person who called 911, and seeing if anything else that the police are not aware of happened?

jorgelito · 02-13-2007, 03:39 PM

The worse part is that when she does defend herself, she will be the one to go to jail and ironically, that is when the police will arrive...to arrest her.

Elphaba · 02-13-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Elph, the police have an "obligation" to respond to every 911 call. Mostly, it's a matter of prioritization. When you have 10 times the number of calls, as you have responding officers...somethings gonna get backburnered. Law Enforcement doesn't offer a "30 minutes, or your next mugging's free" guarantee. The restraining order does, however, put a little more bite into the sentencing...after the fact.

I didn't communicate my entire line of thinking in my post. Given your information regarding how difficult these arrests can be, the "obligation" I referred to also gives the police the political support that might not be found in every 911 call. If a judge has deemed that a restraining order is justified, the police cannot be faulted for jailing him. Under this circumstance, the law has clearly been broken.

The police will certainly be blamed now with the additional information that Sultana has provided.

Marvelous Marv · 02-13-2007, 06:12 PM

Looks like we have another convert to the anti-gun control crowd. You just found out the police aren't obligated to protect you, which the NRA has been trying to publicize for decades.

A big dog is one solution, if the apartment will allow it.

Another solution: Call the fire department. (I got this from a fireman). Tell them there's a fire, and they'll be there within five minutes, with sirens going.

Another one, which is actually a joke, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it:

1. Call 911 and apprise them of the situation. Listen to their garbage about how no cops are available.
2. If no one shows up, call 911 back, and say "Take your time. I just shot that bastard six times, and he's dead."
3. Cops will show up within three or four minutes. When one says, "I thought you said you shot the intruder," you say "I thought you said no one was available to come out here."

You're welcome.

Sultana · 02-13-2007, 07:09 PM

Quickie update:
Looks like the dude is currently booked on felony charges (which means he must have done a lot of damage to those poor neighbors, eh?

), so he'll be in jail *at least* overnight, longer if he can't make the $50,000 bail. Since he was already out on bail for last night's misdemeanor offence (beating up the grandma and wrecking her house), I don't even know if he would even be considered eligible by the bail bond cos.

She's actually been talking to the jailer about him being kept there, so she appears to be getting the info from the horses mouth, as it were.

Thanks for your input and well wishes guys, I really appreciate that I can lean on you guys a little during tough times like this.

Marv - Re: calling the fire dept: wouldn't you get in trouble for falsely reporting a fire?

I do rather like the last one!!

Oh and smooth, I can't yet find a good picture of my window track lock (may take some of my pwn shots of my locks), but it's basically a U-shaped piece of steel with a thumbscrew that goes through one side. So you place the U over the track rails that stick up, and screw down the thumbscrew wedging it against the track. Cheap, easy, and you'll knock the window frame out before you unwedge it.

Toaster126 · 02-13-2007, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Another solution: Call the fire department. (I got this from a fireman). Tell them there's a fire, and they'll be there within five minutes, with sirens going.

I'm pretty sure that is illegal, not to mention dangerous if someone actually has a fire...

Sweetpea · 02-13-2007, 08:02 PM

I don't really have any advice to offer, other than this is the very situation I would be able to protect myself in because of my handgun permit and training. She has children and will need a gun safe, so that makes the handgun route something she needs to put thought into, but I think it's well worth the protection it offers.

I'm so sorry your sister is having to deal with this.
she's lucky to have your support esp. during times like this.

I'm glad she'll be out of that living situation soon.

you hang in there

Elphaba · 02-13-2007, 08:13 PM

A false 911 call to the police or fire department is one of the reasons that they are stretched too far to answer every call for help.

dksuddeth · 02-13-2007, 10:28 PM

The police are not obligated to respond to any 911 call nor are they legally obligated to provide any individual with police protection OR police response. This has been numerously decided about half a dozen times by the USSC.

Xazy · 02-14-2007, 04:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sultana

Quickie update:
Looks like the dude is currently booked on felony charges (which means he must have done a lot of damage to those poor neighbors, eh?

), so he'll be in jail *at least* overnight, longer if he can't make the $50,000 bail. Since he was already out on bail for last night's misdemeanor offence (beating up the grandma and wrecking her house), I don't even know if he would even be considered eligible by the bail bond cos.

She's actually been talking to the jailer about him being kept there, so she appears to be getting the info from the horses mouth, as it were.

Thanks for your input and well wishes guys, I really appreciate that I can lean on you guys a little during tough times like this.

Marv - Re: calling the fire dept: wouldn't you get in trouble for falsely reporting a fire?

I do rather like the last one!!

Oh and smooth, I can't yet find a good picture of my window track lock (may take some of my pwn shots of my locks), but it's basically a U-shaped piece of steel with a thumbscrew that goes through one side. So you place the U over the track rails that stick up, and screw down the thumbscrew wedging it against the track. Cheap, easy, and you'll knock the window frame out before you unwedge it.

Can she talk to the district attorney office handling the case, so they have this information for his bail hearing? Maybe if this was told on top of everything to the judge he will be held without bail.

Bill O'Rights · 02-14-2007, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

There is a reason to fill out a report. The existance of the report provides evidence that could improve Sultana's chances of getting a restraining order.

Getting a Restraining Order is typicaly not all that difficult. 5-10 minutes explaining to a judge why one is deemed necessary. Supporting documentation is not a prerequisite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

Lacking any police report, nothing happened. There is no record of harrassment.
What, exactly, is the downside to filing a report, stating that the person in question was picked up and why? What, exactly, is the downside of speaking to the person who called 911, and seeing if anything else that the police are not aware of happened?

Field Interview Card.
Wonderful little tool. Takes 5 minutes to fill out, as opposed to upwards of an hour or two for an official report. It records police contact, and/or involvement, without tying up valuable time. A FIC is exactly what it sounds like. An abreviated notation of events, that is admisable in court. An official police report is an actual legal document that has to have every T crossed and i dotted. If not, it can easily be thrown out in court. Nothing, and I do mean nothing pisses a cop off more than having a known dirtbag hit the streets again, all because he forgot to have a witness initial the block that indicates that the initials certifying that the time that his signature was placed in the paragraph that indicates that suspects left shoelace was untied at the time off the assault. And people wonder why burnout is so rampant within law enforcemnt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elphaba

I didn't communicate my entire line of thinking in my post. Given your information regarding how difficult these arrests can be, the "obligation" I referred to also gives the police the political support that might not be found in every 911 call. If a judge has deemed that a restraining order is justified, the police cannot be faulted for jailing him. Under this circumstance, the law has clearly been broken.

I urge you not to place too much confidence in a Restraining Order. It holds no extra consideration during a response. No additional priority is placed on a 911 call, just because the caller claims to have a Restraining Order. All a Restraining Order does is gives the D.A. another card to play when negotiating with the Public Deffender...long after the fact.

Remember...paper don't stop no bullets.

Sultana · 02-14-2007, 07:20 AM

Would it be too late now to get that field interview card?

My sister's been trying to get a hold of the Watch Commander ever since this started, and hasn't so much as been able to leave a voice mail. The phone just rings and rings. I almost wonder if they've given her a bogus line. So she's going to try to return to the station again today.

The guy's hearing is tomorrow morning, I doubt that she's going to have the opportunity to offer information to a DA. She's still just trying to find out who the heck to talk to!

OK, I told my sister to ask for the FIC, and to call the court to try and get her info. to the DA.

Marvelous Marv · 02-14-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toaster126

I'm pretty sure that is illegal, not to mention dangerous if someone actually has a fire...

And Sultana WASN'T in danger?

That fireman told me point-blank he told his college-age daughter to call the fire department if someone was trying to break into her apartment. They'll get there faster.

Sultana calls news reporter: "A rapist was trying to break into my home. The police wouldn't come. Out of desperation, as he was breaking a window, I called the fire department. They got there in three minutes and the intruder was caught."

Do you think the police want that on the news? Do you think charges would be filed? Do you think Sultana would get more than a slap on the wrist? Do you think she would be better off facing those charges, or being at the mercy of the intruder?

Your solution is to not call anyone else, and Sultana should ask the guy to leave once he gets in?

Jinn · 02-14-2007, 10:26 AM

So hypothetically you've called the fire department, and even if I accept that they got there faster, what exactly are they going to do? Last I checked, fire men don't have the power of arrest, and only have the citizen's power of detaining if witnessing a felony.

So they might scare him off, but .. what'd that accomplish?

smooth · 02-14-2007, 10:59 AM

JinnKai,

You might want to check that information again. Or let me know where you looked, because I tried to google it real quick but not much came up. Maybe it depends on where someone lives, like in rural Oregon the firefighters are volunteer or either private or county workers. I actually don't know, but you have to pay for their services each year, they aren't paid with the taxes that pay for regular city and county services.

But in Southern california, firemen have always been seen as law enforcement by a lot of different people. They have the power to search and seize and they write tickets, they arrested my friend when they put a fire out in his house and found weed.

Most importantly though, they are big mofos in shape! and they have the ability to knock heads

which is what would be necessary if a big dude was trying to break into a lady's house...all the firemen I know wouldn't really worry about authority to arrest at that point.

Mister Coaster · 02-14-2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MageB420666

Legally, his condition is seen as nothing different than him being mentally handicapped. Meaning he is legally seen as someone with a disease, not as a criminal. And he's not necessarily a criminal.... he could be paranoid and delusional and thought she was a demon. Yes, people really do have those delusions.

Fine, call it a delusion, a condition, a disease, a wild hair or whatever you want to label it, this guy is DANGEROUS. If he perpitrates a "crime" than the law should be able to treat this individual as someone who has broken the law. I'm not the expert, but that's the way this conservitave thinker thinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

So they might scare him off, but .. what'd that accomplish?

A lot! I'm assuming this dude is large enough to inflict serious bodily harm to Sultana. If he gets scared off, then that's a win in my book. I'd rather avoid a confrontation altogether than take my chances with a baseball bat.

MageB420666 · 02-15-2007, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Coaster

Fine, call it a delusion, a condition, a disease, a wild hair or whatever you want to label it, this guy is DANGEROUS. If he perpitrates a "crime" than the law should be able to treat this individual as someone who has broken the law. I'm not the expert, but that's the way this conservitave thinker thinks.

I agree with that concept totally. But in many places the law doesn't. Mainly due to mental health lobbyists. As I said, I work in a Psych Hospital. A 250 lb. man could start beating the shit out of a staff member, and I'd get fired, if not arrested, if I intervened using anything other than techniques meant specifically not to injure the patient. The downside to this? All these techniques require a minimum of 2 people to use. And that's with a smaller weaker person. For a strong patient, it can take over 6 people to restrain the person. How long do you think it can take to get the extra staff onto the unit to do this type of restraint?

Mister Coaster · 02-15-2007, 06:28 AM

The thing is, it's asanine to lump ALL mental patients into one big pile and say "They have a condition, you can't touch them." I mean, there is no more truthful statement than 'people are different.' 5150's are no exception. There are dangerous ones, and docile ones. High-strung ones and low-key ones. To simply put them all above (or otherwise beyond the reach of) the law is a disservice to the sane and rational folks of the world, which constitute the majority.

It sad that these people have such conditions, but when they PROVE time and time again that this condition CAUSES them to be a danger to society at large, something needs to be done. To simply take a dangerous person from a scene and let them go, just to do it again but worse, is beyond my comprehention. Laws or no laws, convnient or not.

I realize that laws to the contrary are on the books, just stating my opinion.

02-13-2007, 10:44 AM	#1 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	5150 tries to break into my sister's house this morn, is already released I am pretty upset, and I don't have all the information, but some 5150--Mentally disturbed person--tried to break into my sister's home ths morning. Took the police an hour to arrive. She had to call back after 30 minutes, as no one had responded! The first dispatcher advised her to tell him to go away. Umm, he's only over 6 ft tall and 200+ lbs and very probably on drugs (although apparently he doesn't want to take his anti-psychotics)...she didn't want him to know she was even inside (he used to live in that complex, so he knows there's no man living there with her). They caught him in the act (yeah, he was trying to get in at all the windows for an hour, while my sister waited inside with a basebal bat, praying none of her little boys would wake up). Took him away. Didn't even knock on the door or talk to my sister ("Gee, I wonder if that lady who called 911 twice is still alive?") He's already been released. Apparantly if someone is categorized as 5150, they just take them from the scene and let them go...WTF? When she asked for a copy of the police report, she was told there wasn't any. The guy at the desk acted like she was stupid for being upset "What do you want me to do about it?" He asked. She's going to the police station to talk to the Watch Commander, but I fear they're not going to give a shit until maybe he manages to break in and rape or kill her. Apparantly he had told one of her neighbors that he wanted to fck her, but the neighbor didn't think to mention this to my sister, partially because he had recently been arrested for something else and folks thought he'd stay in jail for longer than an hour, and because the neighbor didn't want to scare my sister. Thanks, man. Good job there. I just don't know what to do. When the police don't give a shit, who is going to help you? My sister is two weeks away from moving out of that shithole, she's moved heaven and earth to afford a safe place for her family, and some mental nut case can just terrorize her and anyone else he fancies at his leisure. I guess we should wait until he actually gets in next time to ask for police assistance. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening* My goal? To fulfill my potential.

02-13-2007, 10:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	After living in the house with my crack head ex and his crack head g/f for two years, Dave and I learned real quick the cops dont give a shit about anything. They were out there almost everyday for some jerry springer reason or another and even when I told them they were dealing crack out of the house they wouldnt even come in. It totally killed my respect for the police in my area. Calls and emails to the sheriff's office were never returned (even people that emailed on my behalf were ignored) Im very sorry for your sister that she had to go thru this __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

02-13-2007, 11:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I'm feeling for you, Sultana, and hoping your sister will be alright. The police around here don't behave like yours have, maybe only because they're less busy, I don't know. Maybe you should go stay with her for awhile, and have a side-arm available? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

02-13-2007, 11:56 AM	#5 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Ex-cop here...weighing in. Do not mistake anything that I am about to say as condoning the actions, and or inactions, of the Police Department, in your sister's area. From the sounds of it...it's classic burnout. You are looking at the situation from a completly black perspective. Somewhere out there is an advocate for the mentally handicapped that is going to view it from a completelly white perspective. (the actual reality is, more like as not, somewhere in between...the gray area). Now...you have the perpetrator's rights to consider. (yes...he does have rights.) So...between the perpetrator's rights, and his advocacy group. (there is one, trust me) The police have to walk a silk fine line to avoid the case being thrown out. Now comes the "victim", or plaintif, if you will...ie, your sister. She wants something done about this creep. And NOW. Can't blame her. So would any other reasonable person. So now...the cops are taking it on both sides of the chin. Now come the attorneys. "Poor, poor, Mr. Perpetrator. He was never hugged as a child. He has problems that you will never understand. And to top that off...he was traumatized by the police. Yes...traumatized. He deserves compensation. But...we'll save that for the civil trial. My client, in reality didn't do anything but try to open a window, to say hello, to the plantif. No one was hurt. He never actually entered the dwelling..." See where I'm going with this? The case is going nowhere. There is no reason to fill out a report. There is no way, and I mean no way to win, as a cop. Were these cops asses? Yeah. No doubt. But I've been in thier shoes, and walked the mile. It's not them, so much as it's the judicial system that failed your sister. I would, in all sincerity, advise your sister to purchase a handgun, and learn how to keep and use it safely. Take a class with her. They're really not as scary as they seem. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

02-13-2007, 12:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Sultana, I think she has enough cause to request a restraining order given what the neighbor told her and the subsequent event. With that, the police have an obligation to respond. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

02-13-2007, 11:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	The cops don't seem to be able to prevent crime from happening. They might be able to stop a crime in progress or to investigate and write reports of what happened. But even then it's not enough sometimes. And lots of people become victims before the police are able to stop some people. Does she live in a state where you can shoot to kill someone who enters your home? Have her ask the cops if she should shoot him in the chest or head next time he comes into her place. Maybe not, that could be contrived as premeditated murder. Have her ask the cops where to get a handgun license.

02-13-2007, 12:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
analog Banned	Of course, with all respect, the other side of the coin is that he lurked around for an hour and never actually broke in. Never actually got inside, didn't actually do anything but be creepy outside and "attempt" to get in. If it was a house, they could at least get him on trespassing- but since it's an apartment/condo complex, they'd have to receive the complaint from the complex office to trespass him off the entire complex property. Also keep in mind that being categorized as "mentally disturbed" means that there is something wrong with him. While I understand It's a scary situation, we don't have asylums here in the US like we used to. Unfortunately, the government has failed its mentally ill citizens. There's no reason why he wouldn't be back on the street. Even if he wasn't classified as a "mentally disturbed" person, he'd have to have caused damage to an entrance point consistent with forced entry. Just walking around for an hour pulling at windows doesn't cut it, by law. So... yes, it sucks, and yes, it's unfortunate, but there's not much more that can be expected to happen. It's like what they do with stalkers... unless you can prove harm or direct threat of harm, you've got nothing... and even then, until you're bleeding or they're literally on your property, the most you normally get is a restraining order.

02-13-2007, 12:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Elph, the police have an "obligation" to respond to every 911 call. Mostly, it's a matter of prioritization. When you have 10 times the number of calls, as you have responding officers...somethings gonna get backburnered. Law Enforcement doesn't offer a "30 minutes, or your next mugging's free" guarantee. The restraining order does, however, put a little more bite into the sentencing...after the fact. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

02-13-2007, 01:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	The only reason he didn't get in is because she has two steel U-clamps with the screw through it...I'm sure I'm not describing it well..on each window. He got all the windows opne, but no further than the clamp (as an aside, that $.50 piece of hardware on each window has kept both me and my sister from being broken into more than once. I highly recommend everyone keep those on their windows!!) Well, more news. Apparantly last night his grandmother was taking his ass back to the pysch ward or where ever, when he decided not to go and beat her up. He was arrested for that (yes, last night), and released at 5:30 am today (on bail, I think). He was at my sister's house at 6:00 am. Picked up again by the cops at 7 am. released by them because in their words, "He said he wasn't doing anything." Well, he's been arrested again. Seems that after he got home this morning, he broke into his next-door neighbors' house and beat the crap out of them. I wonder how long he'll stay in this afternoon. Or dare I hope that they might actually deign to protect the public or something? BoR, I do understand what you are saying. I'll talk to my sister, but re: a gun, with three little boys in the house, I just don't feel comfortable with that. It's a tough position. Analog, I agree the country has failed the mentally ill. I'd like to imagine that this guy (in his right mind) would be horrified by the things he's doing. But it's hard to be highly sympathetic when he has the meds to help him not hurt people, and he doesn't want to take them. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

02-13-2007, 01:47 PM	#10 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Sultana, do you and Jack1.0 have enough room to put them up for a couple of weeks until this is passed / she's in the new place? It sucks, but her living somewhere else for a couple of weeks might be the safest alternative for the short term. The handgun would have at least a 7 day waiting period, I believe - unless she gets it hot or from a family member, etc. Then again, you can do a lot with a baseball bat - you just don't want to have to mess with it. Really horrible situation. Best of luck to y'all. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

02-13-2007, 02:06 PM	#11 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Yes, we have a guest room I've already told her she and the boys are welcome to stay in until they can get into the new place. We are hoping that this latest assault will keep him behind bars for a while, or at least get him checked into a mental health unit or something. If he's in jail or whatever, she'll likely not feel the need to stay with us. But I can guarantee this will get her moving her stuff out of there even faster than she was planning before! __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

02-13-2007, 02:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Yeah, I always wonder why don't the voices in people's heads tell them to feed the hungry or wash their car or something useful. Nooo, instead it's always "They're touching your food, kill them!" __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

02-13-2007, 02:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	I hear you. Bill, but the whole "He hasn't done anything yet" bullshit doesn't hold water when he actually DOES do something. The mother/neighbor getting broken into/beaten up never had to happen if this psycho was treated like the criminal he is. Hopefully this guy will get what's coming to him. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

02-13-2007, 02:31 PM	#15 (permalink)
MageB420666 <Insert wise statement here> Location: Hell if I know	Yeah, I would definitly have your sister come stay with you until she can completly leave that place. People that are off of their psych medications are very, very scary and irrational. I know, I work in a psych hospital(again...). They can lash out with no external warning or stimulus. I would not suggest that your sister or anyone other than the police try to confront this guy, it's just asking for trouble. I'd also research the laws in your state concerning involuntary commitment of a person into a psych hospital. They differ from state to state. I know here in Tennessee the person either has to be an immediate threat to their self or others before they can be commited. In your state its possible that they can't be commited unless they are a threat to themselves. Meaning that the police have very little they are able to do concerning this guy. __________________ Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

02-13-2007, 02:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Sultana, I assume y'all are calling the po-po regularly to find out if he's made bail? I'd bet on rather safe than sorry with the three kids involved. i really don't think i'd give her a choice if you have that kind of hand with her. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

02-13-2007, 03:07 PM	#18 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	If you do go the gun route, something like a trigger lock or gun safe and seperated ammunition would give her the means to defend herself in a non-spontaneous way. Given your description, it sounds like she'd have ample time to retrieve the weapon and arm herself before an immediate threat materializd. Alternatively, and perhaps more in line with what might be acceptable to you and/or your sister, she could think about securing non-lethal weapons. The bat is one option, but so is a tazer--something she could weild from a distance. Then at least she could incapacitate the intruder if he was able to make it into the home, which might be more difficult with a weapon dependent upon brute strenght (like the bat). Plus, pragmatically, it takes a lot to put someone down with a bat. Not necessarily from a physical standpoint, but from a mental one. It's a gruesome task to beat another human being to the point that he is absolutely neutralized and no longer a threat--especially so if he's large, strong, and mentally unstable. The fact that she's defending her children might trigger the necessary response and moxy, but the last thing I'd think she would want would be to not finish the job and for the guy to get up. I'm sorry if that description is over the top, but it's been my experience and I'd personally voice my concern that she ought to look for an incapacitating weapon that doesn't take much physical or mental strenght to effect her will ont this threat. And I'd like to hear more about these clamps with a better description, if you're recommending that others install them. I'd like them for our windows. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

02-13-2007, 03:39 PM	#20 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	The worse part is that when she does defend herself, she will be the one to go to jail and ironically, that is when the police will arrive...to arrest her.

02-13-2007, 06:12 PM	#22 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	Looks like we have another convert to the anti-gun control crowd. You just found out the police aren't obligated to protect you, which the NRA has been trying to publicize for decades. A big dog is one solution, if the apartment will allow it. Another solution: Call the fire department. (I got this from a fireman). Tell them there's a fire, and they'll be there within five minutes, with sirens going. Another one, which is actually a joke, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it: 1. Call 911 and apprise them of the situation. Listen to their garbage about how no cops are available. 2. If no one shows up, call 911 back, and say "Take your time. I just shot that bastard six times, and he's dead." 3. Cops will show up within three or four minutes. When one says, "I thought you said you shot the intruder," you say "I thought you said no one was available to come out here." You're welcome. __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

02-13-2007, 07:09 PM	#23 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Quickie update: Looks like the dude is currently booked on felony charges (which means he must have done a lot of damage to those poor neighbors, eh? ), so he'll be in jail at least overnight, longer if he can't make the $50,000 bail. Since he was already out on bail for last night's misdemeanor offence (beating up the grandma and wrecking her house), I don't even know if he would even be considered eligible by the bail bond cos. She's actually been talking to the jailer about him being kept there, so she appears to be getting the info from the horses mouth, as it were. Thanks for your input and well wishes guys, I really appreciate that I can lean on you guys a little during tough times like this. Marv - Re: calling the fire dept: wouldn't you get in trouble for falsely reporting a fire? I do rather like the last one!! Oh and smooth, I can't yet find a good picture of my window track lock (may take some of my pwn shots of my locks), but it's basically a U-shaped piece of steel with a thumbscrew that goes through one side. So you place the U over the track rails that stick up, and screw down the thumbscrew wedging it against the track. Cheap, easy, and you'll knock the window frame out before you unwedge it. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential. Last edited by Sultana; 02-13-2007 at 07:12 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

02-13-2007, 08:02 PM	#25 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	I don't really have any advice to offer, other than this is the very situation I would be able to protect myself in because of my handgun permit and training. She has children and will need a gun safe, so that makes the handgun route something she needs to put thought into, but I think it's well worth the protection it offers. I'm so sorry your sister is having to deal with this. she's lucky to have your support esp. during times like this. I'm glad she'll be out of that living situation soon. you hang in there __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

02-13-2007, 08:13 PM	#26 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	A false 911 call to the police or fire department is one of the reasons that they are stretched too far to answer every call for help. __________________ "You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

02-13-2007, 10:28 PM	#27 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	The police are not obligated to respond to any 911 call nor are they legally obligated to provide any individual with police protection OR police response. This has been numerously decided about half a dozen times by the USSC. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

02-14-2007, 07:20 AM	#30 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Would it be too late now to get that field interview card? My sister's been trying to get a hold of the Watch Commander ever since this started, and hasn't so much as been able to leave a voice mail. The phone just rings and rings. I almost wonder if they've given her a bogus line. So she's going to try to return to the station again today. The guy's hearing is tomorrow morning, I doubt that she's going to have the opportunity to offer information to a DA. She's still just trying to find out who the heck to talk to! OK, I told my sister to ask for the FIC, and to call the court to try and get her info. to the DA. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential. Last edited by Sultana; 02-14-2007 at 07:26 AM.. Reason: correcting/adding info.

02-14-2007, 10:26 AM	#32 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	So hypothetically you've called the fire department, and even if I accept that they got there faster, what exactly are they going to do? Last I checked, fire men don't have the power of arrest, and only have the citizen's power of detaining if witnessing a felony. So they might scare him off, but .. what'd that accomplish? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

02-14-2007, 10:59 AM	#33 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	JinnKai, You might want to check that information again. Or let me know where you looked, because I tried to google it real quick but not much came up. Maybe it depends on where someone lives, like in rural Oregon the firefighters are volunteer or either private or county workers. I actually don't know, but you have to pay for their services each year, they aren't paid with the taxes that pay for regular city and county services. But in Southern california, firemen have always been seen as law enforcement by a lot of different people. They have the power to search and seize and they write tickets, they arrested my friend when they put a fire out in his house and found weed. Most importantly though, they are big mofos in shape! and they have the ability to knock heads which is what would be necessary if a big dude was trying to break into a lady's house...all the firemen I know wouldn't really worry about authority to arrest at that point. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

02-15-2007, 06:28 AM	#36 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	The thing is, it's asanine to lump ALL mental patients into one big pile and say "They have a condition, you can't touch them." I mean, there is no more truthful statement than 'people are different.' 5150's are no exception. There are dangerous ones, and docile ones. High-strung ones and low-key ones. To simply put them all above (or otherwise beyond the reach of) the law is a disservice to the sane and rational folks of the world, which constitute the majority. It sad that these people have such conditions, but when they PROVE time and time again that this condition CAUSES them to be a danger to society at large, something needs to be done. To simply take a dangerous person from a scene and let them go, just to do it again but worse, is beyond my comprehention. Laws or no laws, convnient or not. I realize that laws to the contrary are on the books, just stating my opinion. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!