ngdawg

Beccy Cole is a popular Australian singer who visited the Australian troops stationed in Iraq. She was widely ostracized for it at home.
This is her heart-rending response. (A digger is like a GI to us)
Poster Girl

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Stick

I didn't know that she was still around, or that she went over to Iraq.
I hope she's not turned off by the negative press and goes again.

__________________
ominous adj.
Menacing; threatening. Of or being an omen, especially an evil one.

Toaster126

How dare she do something nice for those fighting in a war.

__________________
"The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand)
"The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

ratbastid

Okay, I'm all for celebrities and performers visiting soldiers, I have no problem with that. And I think people who do are the kind that make "liberal" a dirty word. But this song is equally offensive in the other direction. It's a re-churning of the same "they're fighting for freedom" and "either you agree with me or you hate your country" memes that America outgrew just before our mid-term elections. I actually find this song about as revolting as US gung-ho-patriotic schlock tunes "I'm Proud To Be An American" and "Have you forgotten?"

ngdawg

I don't find songs of that nature 'revolting' any more than I find the national anthem, God Bless America or America the Beautiful revolting.
I think her song covers both her reasons for going to visit the troops and her feelings about how she was treated in her homeland upon returning. Is there a difference between her song and, say, Sunday, Bloody Sunday(April 4) by U2 or 'If I Had a Rocket Launcher" by Bruce Cockburn? Personally, they all have their place, they're all good tunes and they all say something besides "Be My Baby"; they're commentary. Some aren't so good-I think this one is. But that's why there's rock, opera, country, et al. Not everyone is going to like the same things.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Lady Sage

This girl has a voice on her! Beautiful song. Bless her for using not only her singing voice, but her speaking voice as well to stand up for what she believes is right. Piss on the people too stuck up to see past their noses.

I for one am proud of her for being true to her Aussie roots and for reaching out to bring some light to those who need it most. Kudos to this woman. May her career be great and the people who think shes evil.... well... Karma...

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Nimetic

A very nice voice I think.

I'd have listened longer if she didn't keep posing her face at me. It's like she's trying to be cutesy. That really annoys me.

On the lyrics - I'd have thought it clear that the war was optional for the government (if not actually option for our professional soldiers). I'd support the people doing their job. I'm much less sure that the war was a good idea.

ratbastid

True enough. I'm just reacting to the political messages embedded in the song. You know--anybody who still honestly thinks that the Iraq war has anything to do with freedom is either completely delusional, or has a political agenda. I'm not saying she should have been attacked for going to visit the troops. It was a good thing to do. I just think she's falling back on some shaky rhetoric in defending herself.

Lady Sage

The war was a very bad idea.

What she is supporting is what we support... the men and women just following orders.

Everyone I know thinks George Bush is an incompetant (enter colorful words here). I find this interesting since he supposedly won my state but I have yet to find anyone living in it who voted for him. Hmmm.

Still, I give her a standing ovation for supporting the men and women fighting to stay alive until someone decides to bring them home.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

ngdawg

If you notice, she kind of quotes a Brig. General in the 'freedom' statements.
(Keep in mind she was visiting with Aussie soldiers, too, not American).
There are many, stationed Iraq or having just come home, that really do think they are there to secure the freedoms of the Iraqi people and in essence, securing our own. It's all good and nice that we can sit behind our monitors in our cozy homes and make conjecture; we're not famous so not going over to support the troops, regardless of what country they're from, and we're not in the military, awaiting the word of when it's our turn to go.
I certainly don't want them there-I don't want to stand honor at any more funerals and I don't want my nephew (Marine Corp) going. But I give her props and those that can and do go with the belief that they are there to support those kids in uniform, to give them a little taste of home and little respite from the realities. To come back home and be vilified for that to me is SO much more revolting than anything she could have put to music.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

analog

I came looking for a discussion (this is General Discussion, after all) and, failing that, at least found more wisdom from ratbastid... which is always welcome.

Psycho Dad

ngdawg isn't a slouch either.

__________________
Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

ratbastid

A year ago, yes. These days, most of them that I've heard are just as disillusioned with the war as the civvies back home are.

I think, especially in light of the current "surge" business, pumping up the war as a patriotic and valorous thing is very dangerous talk.

(I know, I know. This isn't Tilted Politics. I'll cool it now. )

I agree completely!

ngdawg

Aw, thanks, Guys....I feel all warm and fuzzy now....


Oh...that might have been a hot flash...

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Gilda

I don't mind using patriotic imagery, but the repetition of "fight for freedom/in a job that must be done" tends to grate on my nerves, because it seems an endorsement of the reasoning for being in the war rather than support for the troops. There is, in my mind, a clear distinction between being sympathetic to and supporting the people involved and endorsing the misguided ideals that have the US and its allies there in the first place. Conflating those who make policy with the people sent to enforce it is a mistake made on both sides of the political fence at times, and is something that the current administration plays up hard and heavy at every opportunity.

I like that she looked at the soldiers (diggers) involved, but the repeated endorsement of the policy that has them there in the first place leaves me a little cold.

I've always liked the song Lucy Kaplansky wrote in response to the 9/11 attacks and what followed. Kaplansky is a New York folk singer who witnessed the 9/11 attacks first hand from her home and put her thoughts about into this song, which does utilize some patriotic imagery, but in a manner that isn't jingoistic like the nauseating "Have You Forgotten?"

Late afternoon back in new york town
Waking up as the wheels touch down
Pick up my guitar and walk away
Wish I was going home to stay

Line of taxis, I wait my turn
Tar and asphalt, exhaust and fumes
Beside the road on a patch of ground
Taxi drivers are kneeling down

Beneath the concrete sky I watch them pray
While the people of the world hurry on their way
I think they're praying for us all today
And the stories that fell from the sky that day

Chorus:
This is the land of the living
This is the land that's mine
She still watches over manhattan
She's still holding onto that torch for life

Back home fire's still burning, I can see it in the air
Pictures of faces posted everywhere
They say "hazel eyes, chestnut hair
Mother of two missing down there"

I pass the firemen on duty tonight
Carpets of flowers in candlelight
And thank you in a child's scrawl
Taped to the third street firehouse wall

There's shadows of the lost on the faces I see
Brothers and strangers on this island of grief
There's death in the air but there's life on this street
There's life on this street

Chorus
This is the land of the living
This is the land that's mine
She still watches over manhattan
She's still holding onto that torch for life

Then I got in a taxi, said "hudson street please"
He started the meter and he looked at me
I glanced at his name on the back of his seat
And I looked out the window at the ghost filled streets

I noticed cuts on his hand and his face
And I said "you're bleeding, are you okay?"
He said "I'm not so good, got beat up today
And I'm not one of them no matter what they say

I'm just worried about my family
My wife's in the house and she's scared to leave"
And I didn't know what to say
I didn't know what to say
But I said a prayer for him anyway

Chorus
This is the land of the living
This is the land that's mine
She still watches over manhattan
She's still holding onto that torch for life

"Land of the Living" by Lucy Kaplansky and Richard Litvin

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

xepherys

For a change, I'm going to have to disagree with you. Fighting for freedom is more than any single war. It's more than any single country or single unit or single soldier. It's more than any single political message or soapbox. As a soldier, I don't get to pick which wars I fight in, but I'm proud to serve my country regardless because the end result is a better world. I don't agree with what we're doing in Iraq. I DO agree with what we're going in Afghanistan.

It's much like being a parent. Not every choice you make is going to be the perfect choice. But in the end, the hope is there that your child turns out to be a good person. That's what fighting for freedom is about. That's what having pride in your country is about. That 4 or 8 years with a lunatic president doesn't mean that you aren't fighting the good fight or that your country isn't something to be proud of. One crazy bigot in congress doesn't mean the system doesn't work and the whole thing isn't worth fighting for.

To chaulk her feelings up as "delusional" or "political agenda" is just harsh rhetoric. Since you haven't spoken to her directly about the meaning of her words, yours is only an interpretation, and likely colored by your view on world politics at large and your feelings on the war.

I'm not sure how you see this as the case. Could you clarify? Having a military is a must. It has been since the dawn of time. Sure, there are rare exceptions, but as a rule, there will always be someone willing to oppress others, and they're happy to do it with force.

In light of this, being a soldier/marine/et cetera is a "job that must be done". Fighting in wars, whether you agree with them or not also falls into that category. It's not a matter of making excuses, it's a matter of reason. It's a job that must be done that most people are not willing or able to take.

As I mentioned above, "fighting for freedom" is more than just a war, battle or skirmish. It's larger than you or me. It's greater than our administration, our politicians, our voters. It's something that, while barely tangible, must carry on, for better or for worse. Funny, that statement, "for better or for worse". It applies to life in nearly every way. Things will never be all good, and hpefully they will never be all bad. But fighting for what I believe in, as a long-term goal, despite how I might see the short-term, is well worth my effort. It's difficult for many to support troops that so adamately support the war. But the reason many of us fight for our countries is because we believe in the mission AS A WHOLE. It's individual parts may not be great, but as in my example above, you do what seems good at the time and hope in the end, your kid (or country) grows up right.

__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato

My Homepage

debaser

All this aside, when did the Australians become a bunch of pussies? Did they really censor this woman for supporting her troops?

__________________

magictoy

It's statements like that which make others unwilling to provide you with a different perspective.

And it's attitudes like yours that are prevalent in Congress (on both sides), to the benefit of no one.

There are some very good, intelligent people who have cogent arguments for our involvement in Iraq. It is unlikely any of them will be interested in talking to you about them, unless they like hearing the equivalent of the old, "Only things from Texas are steers and queers. Which one are you, boy?"

analog

I believe his statements are what we call "opinions", and it's reactionary "not actually provide any examples of anything you're purporting, but complain anyway" responses like yours that grind conversations to a halt, not promote them.

I am intelligent and can provide great arguments for all kinds of things that are really bad ideas- that doesn't suddenly make them good ideas. People are easily convinced of things every single day by people of great, good, and poor intelligence. None of those things are automatically good ideas just because you say they're well-put arguments. People are charmed into giving up money, information, sex, and lots of other things because someone makes what they consider to be a good argument.

For example: whatever indoctrination you've received has obviously stuck well- people can be convinced of almost anything if the argument sounds good enough and is convincingly delivered.

It's called "deception".

Gilda

I cited the particular passage that I find troubling. It seems to me a clear endorsement of the military engagement in Iraq, which has nothing to do with defending anything or fighting for freedom, and quite in contrast to the second line there, not only isn't "a job that must be done," it's something that shouldn't have been done in the first place for a large number of reasons.

I'll repeat here that this is a disagreement with the policy regarding the war in Iraq and those who set the policy, not the individual soldiers fighting the war. In fact, I'd much prefer that the troops not be there in harm's way for no good reason.

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

mixedmedia

I try to keep a "big picture" perception of this war, but I think the song is jingoistic pap. Shallow, superficial, me, me, me, nationalistic tripe. I just don't care for this sort of thing.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Nimetic

That's ostracized.... They're avoiding her.

I don't know... I think that the main problem may be that in commercial radio land - they want a happy vibe. This music doesn't fit into the main categories

- teeny-bopper
- golden oldies (classics)
- music targetted at females at work (party tunes + soppy + crooner)
- music targetted at males at work (rock + 80s + slightly crude comedy)

It's not alternative or student rock either.

dlish

beccy who??? never heard of her!..really!

so maybe she is being shunned by aussies, and probably why i havent heard of her!

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy