Manic_Skafe

I haven't seen the movie yet but after watching a few trailers and read reading the reviews it got me thinking - what's the difference between attempting to instill in your children the morals that guide your life and brainwashing them? How young is too young?

I spent 17 years in church learning a similar (although not nearly as extreme) world perspective as the kids in the documentary and it amazes me how believing myself to be "a soldier in the king's army" seemed to be a perfectly rational thought.

...

Where should the line be drawn and exactly how do we go about drawing it?

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

Lady Sage

Oh, I am gonna be crucified for this one but remember people... its just my opinion.

It sounds a lot like what Hitler did in Germany. Training a bunch of children in his youth program.

Why do people want to dominate?

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

blahblah454

I am a Christian and I don't think you are out of bounds at all Lady Sage. Every side has extreme ends, just because you are on an extreme end for "God" doesn't make it any better. Lots of people do insane things for what they believe is Gods wish.

analog

Godwin'd on post 2. Awesome.

Willravel

I love the comparison to terrorist organizations. "They're brainwashing their kids, so we have to brainwash ours!!" I hope that lady has a very special place in hell waiting for her. Using the peaceful message of Jesus (brilliant man or a demigod? I dunno...but the peaceful and loving message was damn clear) to promote violence and segregation and hatred is truely evil.

To anyone who would use religon to rule over others: you know where you're headed, so you might want to stock up on aloe for burns.

Lady Sage

I am very glad that people werent offended as thats not how I meant my statement.

I have no doubt that they believe what they are doing is right...

However, it scares me to death.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

blahblah454

I find that the worst people are sometimes the ones who believe absolutely in what they do like that. Ones that are so sure that what they do is "right" they will go to any means to accomplish it, as in brainwashing their children.

Daniel_

Organised religion always puzzles me - all of the religeous texts that I have read (several different version of the bible, some additional Jewish commentaries about the differences between the bible and the Torah, the Qur'an (in English translation), the Budhist texts that I can never spell the name of) make the point that it is important to live by the book and practice a life of peace and thought that includes self awareness.

That people then take those messages and somehow derive extreme behavious from then in the name of God is astonishing - there is no way to get from "Love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek" to "kill the faithless".

Extremism is ugly in all of its forms (political, religeous, social).

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

hulk

An interesting article here (too long to post mid-thread) about narcissism in the context of religious leaders. The opener:

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

Frozen North

"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are over in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, you know, because we have... excuse me, but we have the truth."

When did our primitive attempts to explain the universe become valid reasons to persecute / kill each other? When did religion give us a license to tell our children to blindly dedicate their lives to our beliefs?

I'm not saying that religion is bad as a whole, but these extremists are either treated as heroes or disavowed but not dealt with in religious sects. I think it's high time for the religions of the world to denounce this obvious brainwashing and perversion of youth and to tell their crazies that they're on their own.

The_Jazz

Including the Pope and several other folks that went on to be recognized defenders of everything the Nazis fought against.

The good thing about the brainwashing of children is that it isn't necessarily permanent. See the OP.

Unfortunately, there's nothing for the rest of us to do about it. Parents should be able to raise their kids however they see fit. If the kid disagrees, that's their perogative later in life. Again, see the OP.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

flstf

While these brainwashing attempts seem somewhat scary on the surface I find them mostly comical. These kids will probably have their own agenda when they reach puberty, at least in the west. I don't think many of the little "Soldiers in God's Army" will maintain that attitude past childhood.

Crack

More people have died because of religion than 2nd hand smoke. I say ban it in bars and bowling alleys and that will be a good start.

/not a flame

__________________
Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

rhaevyn

Am I the only one who finds it rather amusing that this Christian camp is at Devil's Lake?

__________________
~Alex~

You've come far, and though you're far from the end, you don't mind where you are, 'cause you know where you've been.

Baraka_Guru

This is a symptom of what's to come in America: a Puritan reformation.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

1010011010

The backlash against the Evangelicals by a generation of their former members will be breathtaking to behold.

__________________
Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

Gatorade Frost

The uprising has already begun

Apparently they don't like it when you say "You just have to ask yourself... What would Jesus do?"

__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

jth

Man, that's pretty intense. I thought the quazi martial arts kata's holding the sticks like the cross was rather disturbing.

I think I want to see this film.

__________________
"A real leader faces the music, even if he doesn't like the tune." - unknown quote

_God_

I thought of your exact words as soon as I read the thread, and I agree with the sentiment of your post.

Caveat: Referencing Godwin in discussions is overused IMO. Hitler is useful as a generic bad guy.

Here, the comment was appropriate.

Ch'i

That religous fanatics of any denomination should hold any control over a country is as scary as it is idiotic.

kurty[B]

It's scary, but like others have said, most of these children will go to high school, and realize "Oh shit, that crap at Jesus Camp was ridiculous". I feel bad for the home-schooled kids.

I was raised in a religion where saying you were part of "God's Army" meant that you would grow up and spread the gospel to everyone you could possibly share it with. It was not supposed to take a violent intone, but I'm really not sure what to expect of this Jesus Camp thing. In that trailer did I hear her saying "This means war!" towards the end? That's just fucking scary.

Oh, and on another note, even though you could say I was "brainwashed" as a kid (3 hours of church each sunday, plus an hour or two, or more of church activities throughout the week), I pretty much flopped to my current live and let be form of thinking.

Ustwo

This story is the story de'jour it seems as its all over the news. So you have a small number of nutballs, big deal, in the 1970's they liked to show people raising their kids as neo-nazi's, in the 1980's it was the white supremisists. Take a few people on the fringe and make them a news story.

Its a news freakshow, look at the wierdos, nothing new.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ch'i

"We are in the same tent as the clowns and freaks -- that's show buisness." -Edward R. Murrow

high_jinx

politics aside, what about the part in the trailer where they're having the children pray to a cardboard cutout of W?

__________________
-my phobia drowned while i was gettin down.

xepherys

Exactly... but so do suicide bombers, jihadists, neonazis, biggots and KKK members. *shrug*

I agree with the general concensus here, though, that these people are loonies and are to be midly worried about.

__________________
The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible...
-- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato

My Homepage

ShaniFaye

this is exactly how we end up with idiots like Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church

ugh..the thing is organized religion could (and in some places is) be used for so many good things...but fanatics like this are no better than those in the middle east calling for American deaths in the name of Allah

this shit just pisses me off big time and its why, even though I have huge faith in god, I will practice from home and not a church

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Intense1

As a newbie here on TFP, I am a bit trepidatious to respond in this thread. I read the OP and have read all the responses, and I felt I had to put in my bit. I have been a Christian missionary for the past 20 years, and most of that time has been spent working with kids. I have extensive experience in leading, planning and executing camps with children (ages range from 10-20, mostly in Asia), and I would like to express my thoughts regarding the "Jesus Army" situation.

1. Any organization who doesn't follow the reality of Child Development is setting themselves up for heartache. I would NEVER take a 6 year old to a camp like this! Six year old kids are still very succeptable to being scared, and to tell them that they will have to "fight in an army" is assuring numerous nightmares, and possible bed-wetting situations, regardless of whether or not the child loves God or not.

2. Our rule is that we only take kids overnight who are over 10, and they must be a mature 10. We are assured of this by an extensive application process, and their parents or guardians must convince us of this. Plus, we tailor our material to age appropriateness (if that's even a word

3. The group that I observed in the trailer is obviously (from someone who knows, trust me) a pentecostal-bent group, as evident by upraised hands and faith-filled utterances. This faction of Christianity is much more emotionally inclined than mainstream Christian groups, including my own ministry.

4. "Army of God" is not a literal army. What many people who are not familiar with this type of Christian group doesn't understand is that when a phrase like "Army of God" is mentioned, it doesn't mean an actual ARMY. Scripture talks about "weapons of warfare" in the book of Ephesians chapter 6 verse 10 through 18, and it has to do with putting on spiritual armour, such as:

a. Belt of Truth around your waist
b. Breastplate of Righteousness
c. Feed shod with Readiness of Gospel of Peace
d. Shield of Faith, which extinguishes arrows of evil
e. Helmel of Salvation
d. Sword of the Spirit (word of God)
e. Prayer

Who wouldn't like to have their kids be truthful, righteous, peaceful and faithfilled, and beyond, what Christian parents wouldn't want their kids to have their heads filled with the realization that they are graciously and lovingly saved, that they can use the word of God (without judgement, of course), and that they can pray to God for whatever reason they have?

I don't know if that was involved in this camp, but it would have been if it had been MY camp.

5. Christian kids aren't taught that it is a glorious thing to go and blow up a group of innocent civilians, killing themselves in the process. I have yet to see this happen - if you have, please, enlighten me (crusades not included)

6. Organized religion isn't killing people - those who high-jack organized religion kill people.

7. Jesus is scandalously different than most of what mainstream American denominations have portrayed Him to be.

Ok, that's my stuff. Hope it hasn't offended anyone - if so, let me know, and I'll apologise to you, and together we'll find a middle-ground, or we'll just agree to disagree. Won't see that in a lot of Christians, will ya?

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

Lady Sage

I have news for them, they try and bring back the burning times?

This witch fights back and she will not go down without a fight!

Id rather die on my feet than live on my knees!

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Willravel

Welcome!! It's great to have new people contribute to the community.
One of the most interesting things about religon is that it can become a magnifying mirror into our own souls. If someone who has violence and anger in their heart reads "put on the whole armor of God", they will don armor and create an army of God. It's that simple. That is part of what makes the church an extention of humanity, and what makes it so popular and highly emotional.
Most Christian kids are taught that Jesus preached about peace. Not all. There are radicals in every religon. The leader of our contry is convinced that God wanted us to invade Iraq, and he has said so on several occasions. That message, coming from a highly religous and highly recognizable member of our society, can be far reaching in it's influence.

I imagine it's not wholely disimilar from Islam, where most of the leaders are reasonable teachers of peace, understanding, and tolerance. A few obnoxious leaders claim that Islam means violence and bloodshed and the whole lot get stereotyped based on the few. Most Christians are wonderful, peaceful, understanding members of society who do a lot of good.
Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Still, guns are dangerous and should be protected from those who would use them for selfish or harmful reasons. People with guns should be watched.
There are no words to describe how much I agree with this statement.

Intense1

Hi Will,

Sorry, don't know how to copy the parts of a post over yet that I want to respond to (I'm sure I'll learn in time - any hints?....)

1. Thanks for your welcome. I've felt like a weasel just slinkin' around and reading all the good stuff (and difficult stuff, mind ya) but it's time to just jump in.

2. You said that when something like "army of God" seems to hit in someone's soul, that they might just create the thing that they have hit on. True, but if we're talking about a group who wants to instill Biblical values into kids (based on solid Biblical interpretations), then I don't think we'll be seeing a sudden news flash on CNN about a pint-sized "Army of God" that has taken over any vital sociological systems. Isn't that what we were talking about, this thing with kids? Am I confused? Could be, I often am....

3. The magnifying mirror into our own souls - it should. But most times, when people view their "religion" and get that mirror, it makes them see what they want to be and then who they are, and that disparity causes them either pain (I'm not that), or regret (I'll never be that), or pride (I'm more than that). Rarely does it cause the response of humility (I'd like to be that, but I don't know how). That last one is where I'm at, and where I'll always be.

4. "CHURCH" is an extension of humanity - being part of a body, or family is what extends from God.

5. Never heard W say that he heard God tell him to invade Iraq. NEVER. Just because he professes faith in God doesn't mean he feels he is on a Jihad.
I think. I don't know him, even though he's southern and a Christian (surely we all know each other......hee )

6. Most leaders of Islam are teachers of peace and understanding..... then, if you don't mind my bit of cussin', WHERE THE HELL ARE THEY? Why is it that we only hear from the "death to the Great Satan America" and "death to Israel" clique? Where are the moderates, I ask you? There are moderate Christians out there doing things (Rick Warren, and others), but where are the moderate Mullahs or Imams?

The problem with being moderate is that by nature you just don't want to cause a stink. Am I right? Momma taught you not to, so you don't.

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

kurty[B]

Great to have you intense1. That's the thing, most of the world does fall into that moderate category, but moderates do not make the news like extremists, and unfortunately extremists tend to form the stereotypes of those uneducated in something. Hence, causing people to relate Islam to violent sects bent on the destruction of he West, where if you spend time in the middle east you realize that most of Islam preaches peace, similar to most of Christianity, Buddhist, Hinduism and so on... It's the few that take the religion and twist it into something it is not that make the news. And those who watch the news and know nothing of that part of society or culture form their stereotypes.

Unfortunately, moderation doesn't make the news. That church that gathers food and contributions to help it's members in need does not get any recognition (until the media decides to try and bend that churches tithing policies and try and twist it into a story about how churches should not operate as non-profit/tax free organizations). No, instead we focus on that church that holes itself in a building and claims a comet is going to take them to heaven, and on the year of their mass-suicide we see a blurb about them on the front page of our newspapers.

Willravel

2. What is a "solid biblical intepretation"? Mainstream interpretation? I'm a son of a Lutheran pastor and a Catholic mother...I know that voids of interpretation exist even between the mainstream religons. Voids like the one's that I've seen are what help people to evolve and birth a religous identity. For some, that identity is what helps them turn the other cheek, give to those that need, and who practice peace. For others, it is a source of religous vanity.

3. You understand a great deal about the path to faith. Kudos! Frankly, I envy you a bit.

5. Here are the relevant quotes from Bush, the one requested is in bold:
"I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it."
--George W. Bush commenting to Texas evangelist James Robinson in the run-up to his presidential campaign
"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam [Hussein], which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them."
--Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Abu Mazen quoting Bush when they met in Aqaba; reported in The Haaretz Reporter by Arnon Regular
"President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
--Nabil Shaath, former Palestinian foreign minister

6. They are the same place as a lot of liberal Christian leaders are right now, who are living under the shadows of the Dobsons and the Robbertsons. The most extreeme voice is often the easiest to hear if for no other fact but the amount of madness in their words. That's how extreemism gets a foothold. The problem is that the constant state of fear there, fear from things like bullets or missles or bombs, can work to distract while the extreemists come to power. In that way the western powers seeking oil are partially responsible for the instability in the region, and thus the resulting terrorism. Scary stuff.

Getting back to the subject at hand for a moment, the peaceful Islamic leaders are everywhere. I swear to you that I can go into any mosque in my town and find a religous leader that does not condone terrorism or extreemism; men who embrace peace and understanding. I know because I've been to a lot of the mosques in the area. I have a lot of muslim friends who want to convert me. Heh. As for the "stink" thing: yes, I do believe that you're right. Moderates are not loud and obnoxious by nature. It's the right or left wingers that have big mouths because we have a lot of interesting things to say. The hope is that the liberals and conservatives can balance each other just enough so that society can evolve at a safe rate. If things were left to a liberal like me, the planet would change troo much too fast. I know that. If things were left to a conservative, nothing would ever change. When we, left and right, are in equilibrium, that is a good time to be alive.

BTW, thanks for the great debate.

Intense1

Hi Lady Sage,

FYI, your response was the first I received on TFP (on the PA school shooting one). Thanks for your response.

Do you think that I would shout "burn her!" if you're Wiccan? Are you? Don't know, I haven't made my way around in this brave new world (aka TFP) enough to know.

I find it hard to reconcile the burnings with what I have read in the Bible about how Jesus was, but that's probably for another thread. Just to let you know - I'd never EVER tell a group of kids that Wiccans were "evil". I'd explain (to the best of my ability) what Wiccans believe, and then tell them that we don't believe the same. It's the same thing I've had to do with kids who asked about the difference between Buddhism and Christianity....

2. What is a "solid biblical intepretation"? Mainstream interpretation? I'm a son of a Lutheran pastor and a Catholic mother...I know that voids of interpretation exist even between the mainstream religons. Voids like the one's that I've seen are what help people to evolve and birth a religous identity. For some, that identity is what helps them turn the other cheek, give to those that need, and who practice peace. For others, it is a source of religous vanity.

Ok, Will, now I see where I've gone wrong. I made an assumptive statement, "solid biblical interpretation", and now I must clarify it. Dangit, you smart folk. You'll be the ruin of me yet.

When I talk about religion, I only do it by title, as what I practice is not religion, it's faith. (before going on, should we move this? I'm a bit skidding about getting my hand spanked for thread high-jacking)

In my stupidity, I messed something up. Mixed posts and all! wah

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

SirLance

Intense1, welcome to TFP. It is a very cool, diverse, free thinking place.

I was raised Catholic and educated by Jesuits, who taught me critical thinking, a tool which has served me well. Faith cannot be taught, it is a gift.

They never said so, but I think what underscored the Jesuit's philosophy was that faith in God, while a gift, is also a choice, and should be an educated choice, and freely made. True faith can't come from indoctrination. How can it, when there is no room for doubt.

I am probably misquoting, but I believe it was Gallileo who said "God gave me a mind that I might use it."

These kids will have a harder time spiritually because they will be denied the struggle that strengthens faith. I'm sure these people believe they are doing these kids a service and somehow imbuing them with a firm belief, but really they are harming their long-term spiritual development.

I pray that these kids get the opportunity to experience doubt, to struggle through it, and to find a renewed and stronger faith in the Gospel's real message: The Kingdom of God is at hand, repent and be saved.

Turn towards God by your own free choice, and he'll welcome you with open arms.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

Lady Sage

Wiccan I am not, Witch I am.

Think of it like this... All catholics are christian but not all christians are catholic.
All wiccans are witches but not all witches are wiccan. We have our various branches as well.

No I do not think many people would want to burn us but I do think that they would hunt us down. People fear what they do not understand. I see it even today.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Willravel

Hey, I've seen Charmed!

Charmed is to wicthcraft as 7th Heaven is to Christianity....

Lady Sage

OMG thank you for the laugh!!!!!!!!!!! Oh, I needed that!

It is nothing like charmed or the craft. You are very much correct.

Your wit never ceases to make me giggle Mr. Will, dont ever change!

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

sapiens

Your experience with the Jesuits sounds very similar to my own. Their philosophy seemed to be based on a questioning of faith, even at the expense of losing some of those Catholics in their charge. My school was known for taking in devout Catholic boys and producing devout Catholic men and ardent atheist men. If I had a son, I would send him to a Jesuit school in a heartbeart. I have immense respect for the Jesuits.

Back on topic: I haven't seen the movie - only a sensationalistic trailer. So, I'm hesitant to draw any conclusions. However, I agree with SirLance. In my opinion, the opportunity to question your faith is essential to long-term spiritual development.

Intense1

My perspective is that of a former Southern Baptist/former Charismatic Interdenominational/current 20 year veteran missionary in an interdenominational mission/current member of what is known as a "seeker" church. So in light of that mouthful, let me just say that my understanding of God and what he wants me to do and understand about the bible have changed quite a bit over the years. My viewpoint on interpretation of scripture is mostly mainstream, if you'll consider one bank is ultra conservative evangelicalism (or very conservative Catholic) and the other is, oh, I don't know, the most liberal viewpoint one can have and still be considered "christian". It's a lot deeper here in my place some times than others.

I agree with SirLance that God gave us a brain and it ought to get used and not ignored in the path of faith. St Paul felt so too, as he wrote "and we know we have the mind of Christ" (can't remember exact reference).

It's actually, I believe, the path of faith. It's not the getting there, it's the journey.

I had seen the Robison interview, so that's not a surprise. Is there actual footage of him saying "God told be to go to Iraq"? I am a bit sceptical of your two other sources - not of you, Sir Will, but of the sources. Show me a tape (or rather, let me hear one) and I shall indeed make a meal of my Atlanta Braves cap.

There is a fundamental difference in what the adults in the Jesus Camp trailor were saying as opposed to what Mullahs/Imams/teachers are saying to young boys in Pakistani Madrassas: the Christian adults aren't telling the kids to actually kill anyone, they're not teaching them that it's a glorious thing to blow oneself up if it takes a couple of Americans or Israelis with them.

There is a lot I'd like to say about us being in any way responsible for terrorism, but that's for another thread, I reckon, and when I build up a little thicker skin, I might mosey on over and fire a salvo.

Great! One of my friends is the leader of our ministry in Indonesia and she lost a dear friend (16 year old boy) back in '98 in Ambon Province, Indonesia, during the attacks on Christians by Muslims (including police). He was at a church camp and when the mob attacked he was grabbed, had his limbs torn off one by one, as the attackers urged him to renounce Christianity and believe in Islam. He refused. Finally, they wacked off his head. This is a true story, his name is Roy, and his story with many other martyr's stories are detailed in a book called Jesus Freaks by Voice of the Martyrs and DC Talk.

During the attack, Roy kept telling his attackers he forgave them, and that God truly loved them. It enraged them further.

Army of God....... hmmmmm

__________________
(none yet, still thinkin')

dlish

welcome to TFP intense1.

just to point out though, ive read and heard of atrocities in indonesia for the past few years, in the maluku islands, ambon etc. while i dont doubt your claims, i ask that you keep an open mind. a few years ago, i came across a propaganda video of atrocities of muslims in the maluku islands by christians. wasnt a very nice view. the video showed 'christians' killing a muslim man, then splitting his stomach open and actually eating his intestines. i dont know about you, but to me thats the furthest thing from chritianity if there is such a thing. the reason why they killed him from memory wasnt mentioned, but then again its a propagandist video.

as for the muslim mob in ambon that you mention, these guys are furthest from the fold of islam. it reminds me of the early days of the prophet muhammads message where the persecution of muslims was at its highest, where figures like sumaya umm yassir were persucuted and killed in similar fashion, where she became the first martyr in islam. islam doesnt condone these acts of violence whatsoever. these acts are moreso, a growth out of the political tension over the area than anything else.

on the issue of finding moderate imams or leaders, there are plenty. but like previous posters have mentioned, moderates dont make the news.

for the 'jesus camp' issue. i find it quite amusing that these guys can set something up like this and market it in this fashion, but a similar islamic one would cause a furore. here in australia there has been stories of muslims going hunting/camping out in the country or even paintball skirmish. news outlets obviously want to sell stories and focus on the muslim terrorist issue where 'extremists' go to jihad camp to train. news/current affairs programs usually show empty plastic bags of lebanese bread to prove their stories. its all a kafuffle to me, all content no taste.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy