Passport photograph of girl's bare shoulders rejected 'as it may offend' - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

lindalove · 08-15-2006, 05:49 PM

[Click on link to see picture]

Quote:

Passport photograph of girl's bare shoulders rejected 'as it may offend'

A five-year-old girl's passport application was rejected because her photograph showed her bare shoulders.

Hannah Edwards's mother, Jane, was told that the exposed skin might be considered offensive in a Muslim country.

The photograph was taken at a photo-booth at a local post office for a family trip to the south of France.

Because of the way the camera was set up, the picture came out showing Hannah's shoulders.

The family had it signed and presented it at a post office with the completed form but were told that it would not be accepted by the Passport Office.

A woman behind the counter informed them that she was aware of at least two other cases where applications had been rejected because a person's shoulders were not covered.

Mrs Edwards, a Sheffield GP, said: "I was incensed. I went back home and checked the form. Nowhere did it say anything about covering up shoulders. If it had, I would have done so, but it all seems so unnecessary.

"This is quite ridiculous, I followed the instructions on the passport form to the letter and it was still rejected. It is just officialdom pandering to political correctness.

"It is a total over-reaction. How can the shoulders of a five-year-old girl offend anyone? It's not as if anything else was showing, the dress she wore was sleeveless, but it has a high neck." Hannah had her first passport when she was three months old. Her mother and her father, Martin, realised that it was due to expire during their holiday later this month and decided to renew it advance.

They aimed to complete the application on Saturday, the same day that Hannah was to be Sheffield Wednesday football team's mascot at Hillsborough stadium. Mrs Edwards was also on call from her surgery.

After the rejection at the post office, Mrs Edwards spent two hours taking Hannah for new pictures, filling in a new form and finding the necessary "responsible citizens" to endorse the photos.

"The people who had signed the original application were not available," Mrs Edwards said. "I had to chase around and eventually found a neighbour who was a teacher to sign the pictures.

"The Passport Office should set this sort of thing out in its forms if it is going to be so pedantic."

A spokesman for the Identity and Passport Service said it was not its policy to reject applications with bare shoulders.

"The guidance set out on the application form doesn't include it, this picture should have been absolutely fine," she said. "If people follow those rules there should be no problem.

"The Post Office obviously has its rules and we can't comment on that. We are aware of a case in the past where an error was made involving similar circumstances, although I don't know the exact details. Staff should be aware of the rules."

A Post Office spokesman said: "Our offices have a Passport Office template which says what the photograph should and shouldn't be.

"Bare shoulders don't come into that at all. We can't see any instruction to that effect so all we can do is apologise to Mrs Edwards. It was clearly a mistake made by the clerk at the post office.

"It is the first time we have heard of such a rejection and we will take it up with that particular office.

"We do around three million passport applications a year. It is one of our most popular services and it is normally extremely effective.

"We have a much lower rejection rate compared to applications submitted directly to the Passport Office."

REALLY bizarre. I mean, you can clearly see she's not NAKED in the picture. And offensive to Muslims? Yeesh. Are their views going to rule the way everyone acts nowadays?

I'm also curious because it doesn't say where they were going on holiday. Were they even going to a predominantly Muslim area?

Destrox · 08-15-2006, 05:55 PM

The world is becomming quite wussified (toned it down for you overly-offended chaps) with this PC'ism.....

Thats about as simple as I can see it.

xepherys · 08-15-2006, 07:05 PM

Well, first of all, if it isn't a Passport Office rule (which AFAIK it is not) and it's not a USPS rule (which, AFAIK it is not), then I hope the clerk was harshly punished for this infraction. Yeah, yeah... everyone makes mistakes. Bullshit! There's no reason that a clerk should make up random rules to hinder the daily business of a citizen.

Also, it might be offensive in a Muslim country? SO WHAT? Should the little girl have wrapped a scarf around her face, too? The lack thereof COULD be equally offensive. *sigh* I hate people...

sapiens · 08-15-2006, 07:31 PM

Seems like much ado about nothing. As xepherys mentioned, it's not a rule. It's just a moronic clerk. Is an article about a single moronic clerk worthy of newspaper reporting? I suppose that the article could be about rampant PCness, but they don't discuss it? What's the purpose of the article then? To support views that Muslims are intolerant?

Bill O'Rights · 08-16-2006, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

Seems like much ado about nothing. As xepherys mentioned, it's not a rule. It's just a moronic clerk. Is an article about a single moronic clerk worthy of newspaper reporting? I suppose that the article could be about rampant PCness, but they don't discuss it? What's the purpose of the article then? To support views that Muslims are intolerant?

I suppose...that it could help to educate the masses. Had she known what was acceptable, and not, then perhaps Mrs. Edwards wouldn't have been so inconvenienced. Now...we all know.

Is it discussion worthy? Who knows? It seems, to me, that we can manage to create a six page discussion about a duck crossing the street...But, I see your point.

Therefore, in the interest of providing stimulating discussion, what, if anything, should become of the hapless postal clerk. I say we seperate him from his testicles, and have him watch as his scrotum is tossed sizzling into a bonfire. But, I can see where some may think that's a little unduly harsh. Still, you have to admit...he'll think twice before doing anything this jacked up again. Right?

tecoyah · 08-16-2006, 05:06 AM

I am offended By the Burka, Therefore all Muslim Women must become Nekkid In my presence, So it is written, so is done.

Oh....wait, Did I say ALL muslim women....uh....revision time.

Bill O'Rights · 08-16-2006, 05:28 AM

Too late...

The stone scribes have no highlight...delete.

sapiens · 08-16-2006, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I suppose...that it could help to educate the masses. Had she known what was acceptable, and not, then perhaps Mrs. Edwards wouldn't have been so inconvenienced. Now...we all know.

Is it discussion worthy? Who knows? It seems, to me, that we can manage to create a six page discussion about a duck crossing the street...But, I see your point.

Therefore, in the interest of providing stimulating discussion, what, if anything, should become of the hapless postal clerk. I say we seperate him from his testicles, and have him watch as his scrotum is tossed sizzling into a bonfire. But, I can see where some may think that's a little unduly harsh. Still, you have to admit...he'll think twice before doing anything this jacked up again. Right?

I do think that it is a worthy topic of discussion. Otherwise, I wouldn't have posted.

My angle on the discussion was "Why do articles like this get printed?" I don't think that this is an example of Muslims ruling the way that non-muslims act. Do Muslim nations even require shoulders covered on passports entering their countries? I don't know. I suppose they can if they want, but that should not affect passport policy in a secular nation like Great Britain. (And as indicated by the article, it apparently doesn't affect policy).

I think that it's just an ignorant person exerting power in their small domain- a mayor of munchkin land.

This is neither here nor there, but the postal clerk was a woman. So, unfortunately, scrotum sizzling is not a possibility.

Bill O'Rights · 08-16-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

Do Muslim nations even require shoulders covered on passports entering their countries?

Good question. Anyone feel like doing some research? I'm curious...and yet...lazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I think that it's just an ignorant person exerting power in their small domain- a mayor of munchkin land.

Is that original? Oh well...doesn't matter. Either way, I'm stealing it for future use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

This is neither here nor there, but the postal clerk was a woman. So, unfortunately, scrotum sizzling is not a possibility.

Well...Hell! There goes my weekend

Now what am I gonna do?

ShaniFaye · 08-16-2006, 06:15 AM

just an FYI the article says they were going to the South of France....isnt that where the nude beaches are?

stevo · 08-16-2006, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

just an FYI the article says they were going to the South of France....isnt that where the nude beaches are?

The south of france is practically a muslim nation. And the article verifies that. I think this was a british Post office in britain, just in case that wasn't clear.

sapiens · 08-16-2006, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Good question. Anyone feel like doing some research? I'm curious...and yet...lazy.

I know the feeling.

Quote:

Is that original? Oh well...doesn't matter. Either way, I'm stealing it for future use.

I don't know where it's from. I didn't coin it. A friend of mine has used the phrase for years.

Quote:

Well...Hell! There goes my weekend

Now what am I gonna do?

I tried to think of something equivalent with ovaries, but it's just not as funny.

xepherys · 08-16-2006, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I think this was a british Post office in britain, just in case that wasn't clear.

You are indeed correct. I didn't notice it last night, but the Identity and Passport Service is a British office.

flstf · 08-16-2006, 07:24 AM

Maybe they should cover her shoulders with one of these.

Dane Bramage · 08-16-2006, 07:27 AM

Talk about over compensating for somone else's POV. What bugs me about this is how much we have to govern our behavior just because somone else might get offended. You know what... if you don't like my bare shoulders, then don't look at them.

In all seriousness, the clerk was only trying to save the family from future hassles. Problem is, that ain't her job.

Probably a subject for another thread, but I'll post a bit of it here because I belive they are related...

I have tried very hard to keep an open mind in our post 9-11 world. I tend to be fairly liberal (nah... really?

), but I find it increasinly hard. With everything that is going on in the world, people seem to be regressing. Going backwards. Becoming more and more closed minded. Anybody else get that feeling?

warrrreagl · 08-16-2006, 08:45 AM

This is HILARIOUS! Are you SURE it didn't come from National Lampoon?

The eyes look photoshopped to make them look bigger and sadder/more innocent.

I'm calling bullshit on this one.

stevie667 · 08-16-2006, 10:26 AM

It is bullshit, just not of the faked kind. Its done the rounds in the papers over here.

What you have here is the wonderful nature of British Beurocracy in all its matt (because shiny might reflect the sun into someones eyes) glory (though technically glory is too strong a word, it should be put as existence, that is less likely to offend religious people).

sapiens · 08-16-2006, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevie667

It is bullshit, just not of the faked kind. Its done the rounds in the papers over here.

What you have here is the wonderful nature of British Beurocracy in all its matt (because shiny might reflect the sun into someones eyes) glory (though technically glory is too strong a word, it should be put as existence, that is less likely to offend religious people).

But was it the bureaucracy? Or was it a lone individual?

Quote:

Originally Posted by warrrreagl

The eyes look photoshopped to make them look bigger and sadder/more innocent.

Those are some crazy eyes!

stevie667 · 08-16-2006, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

But was it the bureaucracy? Or was it a lone individual?

It was the beurocracy acting on the induvidual.

Blackthorn · 08-16-2006, 01:04 PM

That is such a cute little face! How the hell can you not smile when you see that photo...

sapiens · 08-16-2006, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevie667

It was the beurocracy acting on the induvidual.

What I meant was that it didn't seem to be the whole bureaucracy. It seemed to be an individual worker not following the guidelines established by the bureaucracy.

stevie667 · 08-16-2006, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

What I meant was that it didn't seem to be the whole bureaucracy. It seemed to be an individual worker not following the guidelines established by the bureaucracy.

It was an induvidual worker pre-empting guidelines issued by the bureaucracy, i will not have the bureaucracy escape any blame for this! They started this whole trend of stupidity, which caused the guy at the end to act like a muppet, for fear of bereaucracy, or something.

I don't like bureaucracy.

flat5 · 08-16-2006, 04:00 PM

I just looked at the photo. She looks guilty to me.

sapiens · 08-16-2006, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevie667

It was an induvidual worker pre-empting guidelines issued by the bureaucracy, i will not have the bureaucracy escape any blame for this! They started this whole trend of stupidity, which caused the guy at the end to act like a muppet, for fear of bereaucracy, or something.

I don't like bureaucracy.

What is this bureaucracy you speak of? It think that the Pentavirate is responsible:

Quote:

From So I Married An Axe Murderer.
Stuart Mackenzie: Well, it's a well known fact, Sunny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.

Tony Giardino: So who's in this Pentavirate?

Stuart Mackenzie: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, *and* Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee *beady* eye! And that smug look on his face, "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"

Maybe it wasn't the Pentavirate, but I don't think it was "the bureaucracy". Like Soylent Green, bureaucracy is made of people. People are stupid individually and in groups, but I think that this is just an individual.

Marvelous Marv · 08-16-2006, 05:12 PM

Am I the only one thinking that the clerk might have done her a favor?

Long delays while trying to enter another country, or even being denied entry, would be much more inconvenient.

Of course, you could always try to REASON with the official, but I'm told the Muslim ones can be somewhat rigid.

analog · 08-16-2006, 07:45 PM

OH MY GOD!! IT TOOK TWO WHOLE HOURS TO FIX THE PROBLEM!! SOMEONE CALL THE FUCKING PRESIDENT SO THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!!!!!!

She probably also left it to the last minute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Am I the only one thinking that the clerk might have done her a favor?

Nope. I think that as well. If she was right, she saved them a ton more time than 2 hours. If she was wrong, at least she was imparting personally-known information to help them, even if it didn't matter.

Since when does something have to be a "rule" for a government agency to freak out about something?

stevie667 · 08-17-2006, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

What is this bureaucracy you speak of?

The bureaucracy here has no form, it is like the wind, you can't see it, but you know its there, and when enough of it gathers together, peoples shit gets fucked.

This country operates in fear of the bureacracy, thats the problem more than the actual bureaucracy itself.

cyrnel · 08-17-2006, 02:35 AM

I call poor training or an employee with ego issues. I'd reconsider any front desk position for an employee who felt comfortable misrepresenting rules to sell their position.

Experienced advice would be a favor. "Maam, you may want to use a different picture. Just a suggestion, but it isn't unusual for travelers to be delayed significantly by foreign customs agents when their passport pictures display what's considered too much exposed skin."

Provide what's required, add your experience, but let the customer decide. Masquerading opinion as policy does everyone a disservice.

Menoman · 08-17-2006, 04:50 AM

Since it was in the US, it's bullshit and shouldn't be tolerated, now if this were at the other end, they just landed into high concentrated muslim population.

Well then it's their rules not ours. Doesn't matter what we think.

But anyway it was in the US so its stupid.

genuinegirly · 08-18-2006, 03:19 PM

Menoman -

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I think this was a british Post office in britain, just in case that wasn't clear.

What are you talking about, anyway?

Val_1 · 08-18-2006, 03:43 PM

It sounds to me like the clerk was just looking out for them. Just send in another photo. Besides, a passport photo is supposed to be a head shot anyway. My shoulders can't be seen in mine.

The rules on passport photos, in American anyway, are pretty vague. It's up the the clerk to make the decision. I followed the rules they had in their literature and mine got rejected the first time. I didn't even have a bare shoulder showing.

smooth · 08-22-2006, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

OH MY GOD!! IT TOOK TWO WHOLE HOURS TO FIX THE PROBLEM!! SOMEONE CALL THE FUCKING PRESIDENT SO THIS NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN!!!!!!

She probably also left it to the last minute.

Nope. I think that as well. If she was right, she saved them a ton more time than 2 hours. If she was wrong, at least she was imparting personally-known information to help them, even if it didn't matter.

Since when does something have to be a "rule" for a government agency to freak out about something?

agreed. and it's not out of the realm of possibility that the clerk didn't "officially" reject the picture, instead making a suggestion that the parent freaked out about. who knows, but it certainly looks like the clerk at least tried to do them a favor.

I know this much, if the family had been denied entry to the south of france due to a bare shouldered passport photo, we'd be reading a slightly different version of the story--one in which the parents are still pissed at the government, only for not having suitable guidelines in their passport rules that are in accordance with foreign countries'.

Menoman · 08-24-2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genuinegirly

Menoman -

What are you talking about, anyway?

Doesn't matter to me, I didn't read the article I just heard about it and was under the impression it was here.

If it wasn't here, and they aren't US Citizens, and they weren't coming to the US, then I change my opinion to more along the lines of "ohhh I couldn't care less about it"

08-15-2006, 05:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	The world is becomming quite wussified (toned it down for you overly-offended chaps) with this PC'ism..... Thats about as simple as I can see it. __________________ You bore me.... next.

08-16-2006, 05:06 AM	#6 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I am offended By the Burka, Therefore all Muslim Women must become Nekkid In my presence, So it is written, so is done. Oh....wait, Did I say ALL muslim women....uh....revision time. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

08-16-2006, 05:28 AM	#7 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Too late... The stone scribes have no highlight...delete. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

08-16-2006, 06:15 AM	#10 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	just an FYI the article says they were going to the South of France....isnt that where the nude beaches are? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

08-16-2006, 07:27 AM	#15 (permalink)
Dane Bramage Insane Location: Charlotte, NC	Talk about over compensating for somone else's POV. What bugs me about this is how much we have to govern our behavior just because somone else might get offended. You know what... if you don't like my bare shoulders, then don't look at them. In all seriousness, the clerk was only trying to save the family from future hassles. Problem is, that ain't her job. Probably a subject for another thread, but I'll post a bit of it here because I belive they are related... I have tried very hard to keep an open mind in our post 9-11 world. I tend to be fairly liberal (nah... really? ), but I find it increasinly hard. With everything that is going on in the world, people seem to be regressing. Going backwards. Becoming more and more closed minded. Anybody else get that feeling? __________________ Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules — and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress. Kurt Vonnegut - Sirens of Titan

08-15-2006, 07:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Well, first of all, if it isn't a Passport Office rule (which AFAIK it is not) and it's not a USPS rule (which, AFAIK it is not), then I hope the clerk was harshly punished for this infraction. Yeah, yeah... everyone makes mistakes. Bullshit! There's no reason that a clerk should make up random rules to hinder the daily business of a citizen. Also, it might be offensive in a Muslim country? SO WHAT? Should the little girl have wrapped a scarf around her face, too? The lack thereof COULD be equally offensive. sigh I hate people...

08-15-2006, 07:31 PM	#4 (permalink)
sapiens Junkie Location: Some place windy	Seems like much ado about nothing. As xepherys mentioned, it's not a rule. It's just a moronic clerk. Is an article about a single moronic clerk worthy of newspaper reporting? I suppose that the article could be about rampant PCness, but they don't discuss it? What's the purpose of the article then? To support views that Muslims are intolerant?

08-16-2006, 07:24 AM	#14 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Maybe they should cover her shoulders with one of these.

08-16-2006, 08:45 AM	#16 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	This is HILARIOUS! Are you SURE it didn't come from National Lampoon? The eyes look photoshopped to make them look bigger and sadder/more innocent. I'm calling bullshit on this one. __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

08-16-2006, 10:26 AM	#17 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	It is bullshit, just not of the faked kind. Its done the rounds in the papers over here. What you have here is the wonderful nature of British Beurocracy in all its matt (because shiny might reflect the sun into someones eyes) glory (though technically glory is too strong a word, it should be put as existence, that is less likely to offend religious people). __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

08-16-2006, 01:04 PM	#20 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	That is such a cute little face! How the hell can you not smile when you see that photo... __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

08-16-2006, 04:00 PM	#23 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	I just looked at the photo. She looks guilty to me.

08-16-2006, 05:12 PM	#25 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	Am I the only one thinking that the clerk might have done her a favor? Long delays while trying to enter another country, or even being denied entry, would be much more inconvenient. Of course, you could always try to REASON with the official, but I'm told the Muslim ones can be somewhat rigid. __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

08-17-2006, 02:35 AM	#28 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I call poor training or an employee with ego issues. I'd reconsider any front desk position for an employee who felt comfortable misrepresenting rules to sell their position. Experienced advice would be a favor. "Maam, you may want to use a different picture. Just a suggestion, but it isn't unusual for travelers to be delayed significantly by foreign customs agents when their passport pictures display what's considered too much exposed skin." Provide what's required, add your experience, but let the customer decide. Masquerading opinion as policy does everyone a disservice. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

08-18-2006, 03:43 PM	#31 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	It sounds to me like the clerk was just looking out for them. Just send in another photo. Besides, a passport photo is supposed to be a head shot anyway. My shoulders can't be seen in mine. The rules on passport photos, in American anyway, are pretty vague. It's up the the clerk to make the decision. I followed the rules they had in their literature and mine got rejected the first time. I didn't even have a bare shoulder showing. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra