xepherys

This is mostly a question to the mods, but I'm curious how others feel about it.

Lately, I've noticed a deluxe assortment of moderations occuring and threads being closed. One example was a thread that had already generated conversation and replies from the OP, but was closed because the OP did not say how they felt about it and such. While I understand as a rule there is a preference that an OP kick a conversation off, closing a thread that has generated conversation for such a reason doesn't seem like a good plan. It doesn't help the OP and it alienates other members who have already posted and may have additional comments.

Then there was another where the topic "had been posted before" so the thread was closed with a recommendation to search. I actually followed the mods search instructions and came up with nothing (oddly because I KNOW there are such threads... perhaps searching is not working well in the new TFP version?). If a mod closes a thread and tests a search to verify, perhaps linking a few other threads would be beneficial. First, not everyone is quite as bulletin board savvy as others. Secondly, sometimes PHP-based searches do not work as anticipated (as has been my experience so far today) due to code changes, missing links in the SQL databases and other annoyances and such.

I think in the long run our mods do a good job. There are a lot of people positng on here and it's a lot to manage. However, I also believe that this particular community, for the most part, is comprised of mature individuals (even the younger among us) that do a good job of moderating ourselves. Some modding lately has, in my eyes, not been to for the greater good of the TFP. The mod stick, IMHO, needs moderation itself and tender, loving care in it's application.

Am I just being overly sensitive today? It isn't any of my threads that are closed, just to clarify... so I'm not just griping for my own sake or sanity.



edit: Items like http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=105363 are NOT what I am talking about either. A closure with an informative, definitive answer is, of course, wonderful!

spectre

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=27698

That thread is why we don't like dupe posts. Find every time that was posted in there and you'll find a seperate thread that had to be merged in there that was in one area of the board or another. There's nothing worse than 50 of the same exact thread all over because no one would search. As to the closing without an opinion, there have been many great threads with a lot of potential that died quickly because there was an article with nothing else. And those threads always get closed with a mod PM'ing the person, telling them to edit the thread with something more, then sending a PM back to the mod so the thread can be reopened. We don't moderate to be mean, we have rules that are set because of a need for them. The mods just enforce the rules.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

ubertuber

Xepherys,

There was a thread about this recently in Tilted Support. It went awry because it turned out the the poster had an axe to grind, but there were some good answers there. Here's a little help:

In short, it is about the long term growth of the forum every bit as it is about the life of any particular conversation.

On another note (and here's where you've got a Catch-22 that no one can really blame you for, the search function doesn't work right now. From this thread.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

xepherys

Well, I hit "back" and hosed my reply, but here's the gist of it...

First of all, in some forums, people are coming to look for advice. They may not have an opinion or background story to go with it, they just need help. We shouldn't turn them away because they didn't have more to contribute.

As for duplicate posts, it's an annoyance, but sometimes things work that way. Take for instance:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=105064

I took Cynthetiq's sage advice and hit search, advanced search and plugged "period" without quotes into the keywords box. I tried it as "titles only" and "search entire posts" I also tried all forums and just Tilted Sexuality. At best I got 8 results, none of which related directly to that topic. I also verified that the timeline was set to "Any Date" and "And Newer". So, the mod closed the topic with seemingly good advice that in reality helped nobody. That's why I suggest a link or two. Sure, it isn't the mods jobs to be our personal human search engines, but sometimes searches just don't work. It's not just ehre, it's not just vBulletin, it's many BBs on many sites... *shrug*

ubertuber - hadn't seen the search issue. Thanks! I was quick replying and posted before yours refreshed for me.

ubertuber

You'll notice that all of the threads that come up on your search (which now includes this one) had replies since the upgrade. I'm no expert, but I think the search index rebuilds itself as we go - but at this piont excludes things that had not been added to since the change. Maybe someone else can verfiy this understanding (or correct it)?

I suspect Cynthetiq was merely remembering the NUMEROUS threads about that topic that haven't been bumped in the last 3 days. If he had searched, obviously he'd have come up a little dry. I'm sure we'll be on four wheels sometime soon.

Also, how about that auto-merge of double posts. That's gonna be a lifesaver in politics!

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

percy

I don't know about excessive moderation but I just posted after being away for a few days and there is 0% WARN below my name.

Could someone explain this since I havent seen this before? Didnt get a pm so I'm a little out of the loop.

Halx

REAAAAAAD

Sorry, I'm a lil strung out after working on the board for 3 days straight.

Actually, I have a good idea.. I am gonna create a post, notifying people of all the new features.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

xepherys

Halx - You rock!

Percy - People can "warn" you when they think you did something wrong. AIM has something similar.

ubertuber - the automerge is AWESOME. A photography forum I peruse uses this new-fangled vBulletin... I like the quick reply merging as well. So cool...

Randerolf

Since we are in the general theme: Is it in bad form to post in threads that haven't been active in a while?

I'm sure that "search is your friend," but I'm not sure if it was this form where I've seen people complain about old threads with new comments.

Halx

depends how relevant the thread is... some threads are timeless in the sense that they talk about topics that are universal (ie. Mass Media Mind Control) and some threads only go well with the times. I'd say use your judgement when bumping posts. Try not to bump old posts with personal content, as resurfacing a sensitive issue can be awkward for many people.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

ratbastid

Those heavy-handed mods are all that stands between this place and chaos! Utter screeching chaos! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!

Seriously. Have you been to any other bulletin boards? They either moderate as tightly as TFP does, or they're utter shite. And as a ModSpouse (tm), I can tell you, NOTHING the mods do is arbitrary or done without a whole lot a metric pantload of discussion.

(Thanks for the new strikethrough, Hal. I may have just found my new favorite thing about TFP!)

ubertuber

^^ And here I thought your favorite thing about TFP would be Lurkette!!

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Lady Sage

After seeing some of the things typed to close a thread I can safely say that I do not see myself starting a new one. I will content myself to just comment on ones already started.

Glory's Sun

I'd just like to point out (and I'm sure I speak for all mods/admins here) that there is nothing wrong with creating new threads. It's when the threads are rehashed or identical to current threads that they will be closed. If you have a unique outlook on a subject but it is similar to a current thread, sometimes you will get more response by reviving an old thread.. sometimes a new one. People just need to remember to use the search function not only to see what threads are out there, but what viewpoints have been expressed in those threads.

For myself, I get tired of seeing all the relationship threads. Most people can get answers to their questions/problems whatever simply by reading past threads on the subject. *If* the question/problem is truely unique (not just unique to the person who has the issue) then start a thread. Other forums it's quite easy to see when/why/how the need for new threads should be handled.

tecoyah

If indeed....we create this type of atmosphere, it is definately not intended. The Mods here work very hard to avoid stifling input from the community, and in fact we depend on it to evolve the site....and the mission of this place. It is important that no one take Moderator action personally, as it Rarely comes to that, rather we are charged with guiding some aspects of the membership towards a level of comfort that allows everyone to open up and be themselves.
If at times, we seem to be aggressive in thread closure, we ask that everyone take the action in context, and look at the big picture of community and interaction. I sincerely apologize for all who work here if we seem to be harsh at times.....but it sometimes, becomes required in the grand scheme of things.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

highthief

Me agrees with Xepherys. I think the second time I started a thread at TFP, I got "told" to use the search button in no uncertain terms.

I understand the need for moderation, having done it at other boards, but taking it easy on the newer posters so as not to scare people who may have something valuable to contribute away is a good course of action, IMO.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Charlatan

But highthief... you really had it coming.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Glory's Sun

I think that most people forget that alot of us have seen so many repeat threads that sometimes we just grow tired of seeing them and we close the thread and say use the search function. I also feel that the search function doesn't get used nearly as much as it should. The point blank fact, is this, in the newbies section under guidlines and rules it is clearly pointed out to use the search function. Sure, I'm not going to blast someone who is new for not using it as it takes some time to get used to everything. However, I expect better from members who have been around for some time.

kutulu

I think threads with weak OPs get closed too quickly, regardless of whether or not they have gotten responses. I also think that too many threads are closed because of similar topics.

Overall, I've always felt that less is more regarding moderation.

Sultana

People can certainly request advice, but there are rules to be followed. There is excellent advice to be had here, and it's not unreasonable to expect those seeking it to do so within parameters. Every single forum has a sticky regarding expectations for posting there. Need or desire does not constitute a carte blanche for disregarding the reasonable posting guidelines. If one's need or desire is so great, then I think it would behoove those corrected to learn from the correction, and try again, rather than slink off into an e-corner and sulk (not saying you've done that).

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

xepherys

I'm curious what the mods feel the benefit of closing a thread is. If you outright delete the thread with a PM to the OP, then it's stricken from history, removed from the DB (to save space) and will not turn up in future searches for similar topics. By CLOSING the thread, it just takes the thread and makes it a sore thumb in the midst of archived threads.

Realistically, it's like conversation. How many times have you IT folk had the same conversation about how stupid users are. People who aren't in that situation might get sick of hearing that story over and over, but some of us LOVE telling it over and over to the same people, to different people. This is a community and the people are mostly thoughtful individuals. Many threads get self moderated by the community and pruned out due to lack of conversation. If someone wants to be supportive, wants to carry on that conversation again in a new thread (and by someone I mean people other than the OP) then it's akin to the host of the party coming over and saying, "Xeph, we've all heard that story... go check out the VHS library and watch it on that TV over there if you want to hear it again."

I think that totally off topic threads, threads where the OP is obviously trolling or attacking people personally, and other obviously disruptive threads should be moderated immediately. However, I don't feel that we're creating an open and creative environment by stifling potentially good conversation.

Again, I'm not trying to be the dissenter here, just adding my 2.5¢ for what I feel is the benefit of the community. Like my little tag says, "<3 TFP"

Also again, as noted above, if I've ever had a thread closed, I don't recall. I've had one moved, but that was semantics and I was cool with it. I've just seen more closed threads recently than I think I ever have before.

Sultana

TFP is all about content and contribution. One of the requirements for such things is freshness and originality. It doesn't hurt for folks to first read through previous experiences, learn what they can from that, and evaluate whether their situation merits another post of the same sort, or simply adding to the previous posts.

Mods are like gardeners, and gardeners need to prune the roses to keep them healthy. Otherwise, weak branches (or topics) sap the energy that could be going to more productive outlets.

And ultimately, they gotta make the calls. It's subjective.

__________________
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath.
At night, the ice weasels come." -

Matt Groening

My goal? To fulfill my potential.

highthief

Probably true!



Nonetheless, I hope there will be some consideration given to other options before a thread is closed, nuked or otherwise cut off, or before a person gets told, especially when started by a new poster, and especially when a good conversation is emerging from the thread, regardless if another group of posters might have had a conversation on a similar topic 3.2 years ago.

I'm not overly p.o.'d myself, I'd just like to see the place continue to improve for a wide assortment of users.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Halx

Xeph, re-upload your avatar.

I'm willing to look into the policy of closing threads, however I do want to say a couple things.

First, the users of the TFP do their own moderation. When someone posts a thread that is a repeat, I see users throwing up links to the OLD conversation and telling them to use the search button. This isn't just the mods talking.

Second, we close a thread because we allow users to get back to us with their ideas on how to make the topic better, and worthy of its own thread.

Third, in the case of starting a thread with content but no opinion, that develops into an interesting thread all by itself, we're kinda stuck. I personally consider it rude for someone to just dump an issue into our lap and say "Discuss." So, would you rather have those inclinations reinforced by letting the threads grow, thus silently "allowing" more of the same, or would you rather lock the thread and only allow it to continue if the OP agreed to add their opinion to the mix? It's a touchy subject, and a lot of people like to draw comparisons to various controlling regimes, but once again -- the community moderates itself. The users tell eachother what is expected of them. It becomes a culture.

Are there any issues that I'm leaving out here? I see what you're saying. It's like, "Ahh man, it wasn't that bad of an infraction; something good came out of it." But where do you draw the line? I hope you agree that there SHOULD be a line.

The image of the TFP is one of paradox and occasionally we must step over ourselves to acheive our goal. The first amendment may be many peoples' saving grace, but while it works for the enlightened ones, it also works for the dumb ones. Our interpretation of the freedom of speech has gotten us to where we are today, which is not a bad place.

In conclusion, if the mods are doing their job with a bad attitude, bring it to me. If the defined duties of their job are making you uncomfortable, are you sure it would be better if it were different?

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

kutulu

I agree that there should be a line but I have trouble seeing where the line should be. I post a lot less than I used to. Part of it is that the longer you see the same people writing things, you pretty much know how a topic is going to turn out.

I've also lost a lot of desire to start new threads beacuse I feel like a new thread needs to have a 3 paragraph essay attached to it. Although I think it's a bit inappropriate to just quote an article and say 'discuss' it should be acceptable to quote an article and write something like "hey, I don't really know much about this but I find it quite interesting. Does anyone have any knowledge or experience they would like to share?"

At a glance, both openings have about the same amount of direction given but at least in the second one, the poster is attempting to reach out to the potential audience. Unfortunately, both types of threads get locked.

Halx

I think we do allow those kinds of openings. What we don't allow is basicly: "Does anyone know about Google PageRank?" I mean, what are we supposed to do, write an essay in response to a single sentence? We need to know who what when why how. We need context.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

analog

kutulu: It's really not that difficult to read an article and be able to form some sort of opinion about it, or take something from it and start a discussion about it.

Also, and more importantly, what you describe is not a discussion. Saying, "hey what is this all about" is not a discussion. When you post an article, it's to start a discussion on it, and asking what the article means is not starting a discussion. I have often seen people do a quick Google or Wiki lookup on something from an article, to have a slightly better understanding of the material, and from there they start their opening opinion.

More often than not, however, the question is not "i'd like to know more about this, is anyone experienced in this." Those are very few and far between- and to be honest, if the poster's language is such that they honestly have a desire to learn about it, it's very apparent- and I personally don't close a thread on that. Instead, I'll usually try and steer things toward a discussion. Hell, I've Googled or Wiki'd something from an article just to put something in and help start a discussion, if I didn't have knowledge of the article's info already.

By far, the biggest issue is, "what do you think about this?" Well, what do YOU think about it, first? That right there is THE MOST common kind of lack of opening post opinion. If you don't have an opinion on it, then educate yourself and form one, or just don't post it. You've got to have SOME kind of opinion on it, no matter what it is.

Exactly as I said above.

KnifeMissile

As an aside, I actually dislike this feature.

I hope people will agree when I say that I don't make too many double posts but sometimes I think it's appropriate. If you have two different posts addressing two different things, I think it can be appropriate to have two different posts, even if no one else happened to have had anything to say between the times you made your two posts...

I have some peeves about posts and some suggestions for post conventions but there's probably a more appropriate venue for those than here...

Psycho Dad

I've noticed that the heavy handed moderation has cut down on the "do you like anal" and "do you spit or swallow" type posts in Tilted Sexuality. There are sometimes some posts that I swear people are just looking to see some lady post about how she likes this or likes that.

Most of the mods do a good job, maybe a cople of them don't make everyone happy. But that is the kind of shit you have to deal with in life. If the way a message board gets run is one of the biggest problems in life for someone, I'll trade places with them.

__________________
Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

*Nikki*

I really don't see the problem here. People are here becaue they like TFP how it is, moderation and all.

If you don't like it you can use your free will and go somewhere else.

I mean why fix something that is not broken, we do our job, we do it as volunteers and we do it damn well.

xepherys

*Nikki* - please don't get defensive. You do do it voluntarily, and you do do it well. I don't WANT to go elsewhere. I care enough about and enjoy the TFP enough to post my suggestion because it's something I feel. Because I am a user and disagree with something I can just "use my free will and go somewhere else."? It's hard to not take moderation personally when a mod can make a comment like this.

At any rate, I'm here. I'll be here whether moderation changes or not. I'm sorry if any particular moderator felt that I was attacking their fantastic job (overall) at monitoring the finest community on this here internet. It was my opinion and my view and nothing more or less.

Halx

Well, I'd like to look at this on a case by case basis. If you see anything going on, please let me know and point me to where you're concerned. I'll take a look at it and see if theres anything we can do better.

__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]

xepherys

Halx-

I apprecaite that. After rereading your response in http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=104780 I suppose I'd rather not shake the boat. As anothe rmember said, perhaps it's better to have a tinge of overmoderation than rampant undermoderation. *sigh* No such thing as a perfect balance I suppose.

hulk

To touch upon closures due to duplicate threads;

Is it really better to resurrect a three year old thread instead of starting anew?

Case in point. While true there was another thread, it was old. The newest post was only a month after I joined!

__________________
"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex."
-- From an IGN game review.

pan6467

If you are new and come up with a post and someone in the past came up with one but it died, is it necessary to yell at the person?

I think the best way to handle it is to simply merge the thread (save space) and to explain the search procedure. I know I didn't really know how until someone explained it to me (and every now and then I do open a duplicate, because in my angst I was blinded in thought and didn't do a search. It happens.... I don't think a scolding or copping an attitude is the answer.

This is a great site and the mods (some of whom I call friend) do the best job they can and all of them do what they feel is best for the site and not for their individual ego, but they are human, the job I am sure can be tedious and sometimes they just have a bad day and say the wrong thing or you misinterpret it and feel slighted. Sometimes the answers are bitter, sometimes they are what you desire, but in the end, the mods give what TFP needs to survive and it has worked pretty damned good so far.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Seaver

Amen. I'm just going to have an auto-reply to relationship advice in Tilted Sexuality:

"The solution to your problem is discuss it with your partner. If you/he/she truely love/like/respect you/her/him he/she will change what he/she is going which is causing problems in the relationship. You both are young and if you find yourselves desiring others, it is natural. What you/he/she must understand is that you/he/she have committed to a relationship and it will take hard work.

If he/she has cheated on you, it is not your fault no matter what they attempt to convince you of. It is a sign of putting his/her desires above your feelings. It shows shallowness and a complete lack of empathy for their partner. If he/she truely loved you he/she would never put themselves in a situation where it would occur. You dont need us telling you this, you know it yourself.

If he/she/you do not seem to be in the mood for sex it could be a number of things. Birth control or stress can be causes, but more often than not it is an indicator of unhappiness in the relationship. There is no way for us to know, talk to your partner outside of the bedroom.

Whatever other problems occur, talk to your partner. If you are unable to do this end the relationship because there's no way it would work out anyways."

ratbastid

Yep. Pretty much sums it up.

That and the "Anal sex: whyyyy!?" posts, and you've basically got Tilted Sexuality.

kutulu

You know what? Nobody is forcing you to look at the threads in Sexuality. The back button exists for a reason. These threads may seem like an annoyance to you but they were started by a person in need and a little more respect is deserved.

Sure, the situations may be similar but people and their problems are unique. People are reaching out for advice and guidance and it feels impersonal as hell to piggyback on a previous thread. If all you want to do is give a canned response, then don't bother.

pan6467

I totally agree with this Kutulu. This is the most intimate thing about someone they can post and should be handled with the utmost respect, not shown another thread and looked down upon.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

*Nikki*

I made that statement as an opinion, same as you yourself are doing. As far as taking moderation personally, well you should if it is you who it is being directed at. If not, and you feel the need to stand up for something because you feel like others are getting treated poorly then it is your right to do so. Same as it is my right to state otherwise. That is not being defensive.

I have invested many years of my time here and I have seen people come and go who complain about this and that. While I am not saying you have made a mute point, I am saying that overall I think that we as moderators do a damn good job. If your only complaint is 'overmoderation', well so be it. I am sure it happens sometimes, as I am just as sure there are times when we let things slide.

Behind the scenes a great amount of discussion goes into many many decisions that are made on this board. I can tell you that each mod is very different and we all have different opinions on things, many times we disagree. In the end though, we always do what we feel is best for the TFP.