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#1 (permalink) | ||
Apocalypse Nerd
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Bush Compared to Hitler; Teacher Suspended
A High School teacher was suspended today for comparing George Bush to Hitler.
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I tend to agree with this viewpoint because I listened to the tape: http://www.850koa.com/cc-common/podc...ews_worthy.xml And found it to be a one-sided rant. But this teacher isn't alone in his accusations. Just a few years ago, Republican Politicians and Pundits would frequently compare Bill Clinton to Hitler. One example (many more available): Quote:
I guess my question is: Does making these comparisons trivialize what Hitler did? What do you think? |
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#2 (permalink) |
<3 TFP
Location: 17TLH2445607250
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Well, I dunno... I mean, if things like this happen in high school, these kids may be shocked when they go to college and professors make much worse accusations about many more people and are left to preach that way. If school was only about 100% fact, people would be stupid leaving school, and it would certainly be far too boring. So he made a connection. I think it's just fine. By high school, kids should have the ability to take things with a grain of salt and/or research the issue more if they are inclined to do so. *shrug*
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#3 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Of course it trivializes what Hitler did. People are way too quick with the comparison.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#4 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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Yes.
I heard the audio too, and as soon as I heard the teacher compare Bush to Hitler, I said, "Godwined!" That teacher and I probably share a similar voting record, but I cringe to think that people would ever connect me ideologically with this bozo. Idiots who compare any politician to Hitler hurt their cause and demonize others in a fashion that can cause harm. This teacher's rant was especially stupid. It could fit in well with statements like: "Then they made a small, economical car that regular folks could purchase, JUST LIKE HITLER!" "Then they held a parade, JUST LIKE HITLER!" "Then they got all raucous in a bar, JUST LIKE HITLER!" "Then they worked to improve rail service, JUST LIKE HITLER!" So, Hyundai, Macy's, Norm and Cliff, and the Virginia Railway Express are all JUST LIKE HITLER!
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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
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#5 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#6 (permalink) |
Rookie
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I don't think it trivializes Hitler's actions. They were heinous enough that you could call people Hitler, but if you really know what Hitler did instead of actually viewing the person as a new-age Hitler you would instead think the person making the accusation is a crackpot. Of course you can't discount some Hitler comparisons based on Godwin's law, such as the Khmer Rouge. In that case it serves as a comparison which helps people understand what happened there; a kind of ethical and moral benchmark to which you can look ta something and understand it in other contexts. Most Americans who come from Europe understand the atrocities of the Holocaust, but hearing about what happens in Asia with millions massacred, by linking it to something that has been studied you have a worthwhile comparison.
But then again, in a way it trivializes the comparison as the Right comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler based on the gassing of the Kurds, and the Left comparing Bush to Hitler based on his rhetoric, it does make the meaning of Hitler trivialized. But in my opinion it only does that to the using of Hitler as a means to compare something that's actually comparable. I personally believe the comparison of Hitler to any American president regardless of how much I dislike them is blatantly false. Be it Bush or Clinton. And finally, the teacher definitely deserves a strict sentence for how he acted. I read the transcript yesterday and I know as a high schooler you should be able to know the truth from fiction, but having a teacher you disagree with politically can severely polarise the learning experience which is highly unfair to those in the classroom who disagree with the teacher. Plus, a teacher loses credibility to the students based on that. Last year I had a teacher who was very strongly anti-Bush, and I myself am a Republican so I found his Michael Moore-esque style of commentary very frustrating. If you're in a public school you should have the right reserved to not have wannabe political pundits mouthing off about these things.
__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips |
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#7 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Lets hear the recordings....
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...GeoTeacher.mp3 Mind you this guy is a GEOGRAPHY teacher.... Asshat.
__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#8 (permalink) | |
Sky Piercer
Location: Ireland
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Like remember that time when Bush mercilessly exterminated six million ethnic minorities? No? Me neither. Case closed.
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#9 (permalink) | |
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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No...I don't think that it trivializes what Hitler did.
What it does do, however, is trivialize the one making the comparison. That is to say, it is at that point that I usually roll my eyes, stop listening, and start thinking about what Mrs. O'Rights may be fixing for dinner. Quote:
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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#10 (permalink) | |
Apocalypse Nerd
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In 1933 when Hitler was elected into power the economy was very bad for Germany. There was 23% unemployment. By 1935 -there was 3% unemployment. When Bush was selected into power the economy was very good for America. There was 3.9% unemployment. Under Bush's careful guidence unemployment reached 6.2%. Hitler borrowed millions to build Bridges, Railways, and the Autobahn. After the federal government failed to step in -American railways, airports and airlines went bankrupt. Hitler started with nothing and worked his way into power. Bush started with everything and let his families wealth and influence get him into power. You see, there are very few similarities between Bush and Hilter. |
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#11 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: VT
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Newsbusters.org , TheConservativeVoice.com , and WashingtonPost.com .) I had friends that were at both ends of the political spectrum. The ones that agreed with him loved him, and the ones that disagreed with his views hated him. I consider myself liberal, but not by much, I have views from both sides. I enjoyed his commentary because it really did spark debate among the class, especially when there were students with strong opposing opinions. I personally enjoyed it and it helped me see different views on politics then my own. I think if the parents are that bothered by it, they can send their kids to a public school where you can have all the teachers teach the same way, following the private school's practice. |
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#12 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I had a history teacher I was 180 degrees away from on the political spectrum.
He was also one of the best teachers I had. He didn't even flintch when I rated Nixon as a president above Truman as I was able to back up my argument (though now that I'm not 17 I'd have changed that). The problem isn't that this guy is a liberal, the problem is that he is a barking moonbat liberal, no more suited to teach than a Fred Phelps.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#13 (permalink) | |
Observant Ruminant
Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town
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There was a high school teacher in San Jose a year or two back -- he _was_ a history teacher -- who kept bringing up religion in class. Not religion as in "religious beliefs played a role in..." but as in "What a good idea to accept Jesus into your life..." Repeatedly. When he wouldn't stop, the administration canned him; there was a lot of furor over his right to free speech (can you say "Fox News?") until the students started quoting what he was telling them to the MSM. Apparently, he was something of a head case as well. |
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#15 (permalink) | |
Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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Transcriibed by moi:
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__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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#16 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Isn't that funny! Something about the headline rang my "taken out of context" bell.
Saying "Bush IS Hitler" is obvious trolling. Saying "Bush's speech had some eerie similarities to things Hitler might have said", while qualifying your statements and citing evidence from speeches, is another matter entirely. |
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#17 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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Is it Godwin's Law?
Personally my issue with the teacher wouldnt be political bias, it would be the fact he is, if reflected accurately in this case, a moron. To compare Bush and Hitler would be one thing, but to imply that Bush is like Hitler strikes me as rather ridiculous and a pretty poor standard of teaching. I'd be the last person to support Bush, but to say he has commited crimes with are substantively similar to Hitler is very clearly false and offensive. My complaint would be that a person capable of making such a statement would seem to be unfit to provide a suitable standard of education. It of course show's a lack of understand of who Hitler was, and of what was done.
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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#18 (permalink) | ||
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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What the teacher was trying to point out, and rightly so, is how Hitler manipulated the public to his way of thinking. Bush, in his speeches touches on many of the same themes (fear of the other, nationalism, etc.). One need only remember what Goering said at the Nuremberg trials: Quote:
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#19 (permalink) |
C'mon, just blow it.
Location: Perth, Australia
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Strange how Hitler gets all the credit for what the bastards standing next to him did. Hitler didn't kill six million people, the Nazi government killed six million people. Hitler was the public face that inspired fanatic loyalty, brought a country on the brink of another recession into an economic powerhouse and conquered much of Europe. The Nazi government and military was the body that decided how and when to implement the final solution.
Reading the transcript above, the argument this teacher made is about as valid as it gets. Godwin's Law is an irrational response to anything - the fact that it's internet tradition alone notwithstanding, the longer a discussion is the higher the chance of anything imaginable is used to compare.
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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review. |
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#20 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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(To unthreadjack the threadjack) Even if it's untrue, it illustrates one point: the leader is the one accountable. Even if it was Hitler's henchmen who did the deed, Hitler is the one ultimately held responsible in the eyes of history. That's a lesson that today's CYA-happy administration would do well to learn. |
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#21 (permalink) |
Rookie
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While the comparison of Hitler's rise to power and Bush's speeches may be accurate, but by backing the comparison, you tend to lose credibility. To me it's the equivalent of comparing Pope John Paul II to Osama Bin Laden. They're both religious leaders, thus it's a comparison is technically true, but you're making the comparison of a peacefulish religious leader to a leader who supports killing thousands of innocent men, women, and children. You're using a poor comparison to imply something that's not necessarily true. Such as Bush is a mass murderer, etc. or Pope John Paul is a terrorist. You can compare small things, but you make a very poor argument by making inflammatory comparisons without an overall strong basis in fact.
__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips |
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#22 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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Well, I dont want to threadjack either - but if you are reckoning, I would not think the number of deaths Usama Bin Laden is responsible for would equate very easily to the number of dead in the Third World, as a direct and causal effect of the Catholic doctrine on the use of contraception.
As I said, certainly Bush and Hitler can be compared, insofar both are leaders who have declared war on and invaded other nation states. It is true of most political leaders that they use the fear of external danger to try and hold power - this is hardly unique of Bush or Hitler. This is why it seems foolish to me to say that Hitler is "LIKE" Bush. The things that make them similar (that they were both leaders who started wars, that they both had pet dogs) are not significant to the things that are different.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
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#23 (permalink) | |
Apocalypse Nerd
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#24 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Not only are people much more media savvy they are much more versed in democracy... I think the teacher made a very facile comparison when it comes down to it. I don't think it was a suspension offence. His principal should have taken him to task about balance in his lectures but that's about it (unless he'd been warned before). By the way, terms like "moonbat Liberal" do nothing to forward an arguement. All they do is drag the overall level of discussion down. We can do better.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#25 (permalink) | |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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Yet even he, who had been directly affected by Hitler's regime, compared Bush's actions to some of those Hitler took--especially the PATRIOT Act. He was deeply concerned about the path the United States was taking when George W. Bush came to power. Yet I think as time went on he came to realize the United States was not as weak as Weimar Germany. A free press, freedom of speech, and freedom of assembly can make all the difference. I don't think it trivializes what Hitler did. I don't think anything could though. As for the teacher--I think he must have been on his second warning if he did get suspended. Given the fact that most school districts have the unions breathing down their necks, most do not suspend lightly.
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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#26 (permalink) | |
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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They think it's nuts. They voted for Bush, and they favor the Patriot Act, which you may have noticed was approved 89-10.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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#27 (permalink) | ||
C'mon, just blow it.
Location: Perth, Australia
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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review. |
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#28 (permalink) |
Here
Location: Denver City Denver
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Just to let you know...
Colorado schools are still 48th in funding for public schools. This should explain ahy we have so many problems with horrible teachers and kids killing each other.
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heavy is the head that wears the crown |
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#29 (permalink) | ||
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Quote:
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__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#30 (permalink) |
Fledgling Dead Head
Location: Clarkson U.
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A good teacher can introduce politcal debate into his class by asking carefully worded questions. When a teacher is TELLING his class shit like this, thats crossing the line. In fact, if anyone were to preach this to me, Id tell em to go fuck off and find someone who gives a shit.
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#31 (permalink) | ||
Rookie
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Quote:
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__________________
I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips |
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#32 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Care to walk me through how you come to that conclusion?
While you may wish to make that connection, the doing is all yours. I am examing the use of propaganda and rhetoric in wiemar germany as used by Hitler compared to the language Bush has been using. It has nothing to do with nazism specifically and perhaps more than most would comfortably admit with facism in general. As pointed out elsewhere, the biggest difference is that the US today is nothing like Wiemar Germany. Otherwise Bush used a lot of the same US vs. Them, We are the Greatest, etc. rhetoric that convinced their nations to march to war. You are right, other examples could have been used. His lesson was sloppy and lazy (IMO) but hardly worthy of suspension. Reprimand would be more appropriate.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#33 (permalink) |
You had me at hello
Location: DC/Coastal VA
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More of this story has come out. The kid who taped his teacher did not take the tape to the principal or any school authority… no, he took it (with the guidance of his parents) to a local conservative talk radio station where they put him on the air and played only the Hitler comment.
It turns out that after giving that statement, he asked the kids to challenge it. This was really a case of “out of context”. While I think he would have been better off to compare Bush’s rhetoric to fascist rhetoric than Hitler, I think he’s been railroaded by a school that was blindsided and could do little else since this all came out through this talk station. For the record, the kid never complained to anybody about his teacher, and no students had complained about this teacher. Now they’re screwing with his career because some petulant brat wanted to be a mini-Rush Limbaugh.
__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet |
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#34 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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The school board needs to have some balls and stand up to bullshit like this. Scapegoating a teacher is not the way to go. Reprimand if neccessary but hanging him out to dry is poor management.
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#35 (permalink) |
Registered User
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It's worrying that a teacher has been forced to stop educating his class (costing the school money in the process) because people are so frightened that their children are so prone to brainwashing that listening to alternative viewpoints is somehow considered dangerous. Only in America. Land of the free (to say what you like as long as it's deemed 'patriotic' by the authorities) home of the brave (enough to risk ruining your career by speaking your mind in a calm and rational manner).
Makes you proud doesn't it? |
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#36 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Nezmot... that's a bit extreme I think.
The US is not unique in it's ability to prove that the "mob" can still rule.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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#38 (permalink) | ||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I heard about this a few days ago, and someone (Mike Trivisonno) on the radio was blasting the teacher for just being a Geography teacher. Ahem..... last I checked part of geopgraphy was studying countries social, political, economical and philosophical beliefs, NOT just point out countries on a map.
He is also heard flipping down the maps (I assume) so he could POINT OUT COUNTRIES HE NAMED...... hmmmmm using free speech to point to countries interesting way to get kids to know where Guatemela is, or Isreal and Syria, and so on. BUT the article states very plainly, he is not just a Geography teacher but a Social studies/Am. Hist teacher: Quote:
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THANK YOU FOR THE TRANSCRIPT. Now then, I have 2 problems with this. 1) Why and how was this teacher's lecture taped? Well according to the article it was because the student never heard an opposing side. Meaning, I suppose, this teacher made statements derogatory towards Bush before. So the kid taped his teacher's rant. Now that could be innocent by the kid, go to class the teacher is talking about America and Bush and starts his rant and ..... However, it could have very easily benn a setup by the kid. Do we hear on the tape what was said before? If perhaps this student may have egged the teacher on with a baited question? It would be easy to sit there and say, "Hey teach, I was on the net last night and saw a comparison between Bush and Hitler, do you think there is any?" So we cannot rule the qualifiers (what was said before) out. 2) Why was this teacher suspended? Well according to the school, it was not what was said but the fact he didn't give the other side, a favorable Bush comment. Which the tape clearly show was not the case. Well, the problem exists is that we are basing everything on a kid's tape. A kid that as shown above could easily have baited the teacher. The kid could have edited the tape (paused at places he wanted... and he did), to get only what he wanted. So to say that this tape is the only evidence is very suspect. Actually, sounds like a very interesting lecture..... (EXCEPT alcohol is the number 1 killing drug in America not tobacco/nicotine. So, as a smoker I must argue that I dislike his condemnation of tobacco...... ) He makes some very valid points, that should be addressed. I guess my view is do we sit here and want teachers to just teach or do we sit here and want kids to think for themselves and work to inspire the kids to think? I personally as a parent would have praised this teacher because he got my kid interested in a subject and got my kid thinking. When you do hear the kid talk (I assume it is him as his voice is louder) the teacher acknowledges the kid's views and debates, egged on by the kid. Hmmmmmmm a teacher again proving that he is getting response from students and getting them to THINK and QUESTION. Sorry, but I find this teacher to be damned good. I would venture to say his students walk out of his class having learned more than they knew before it, AND are probably more apt to think about differing views and debate better. QUOTE FROM THE TEACHER: "...IN NO WAY AM I TELLING YOU, YOU HAVE TO FIGURE THIS OUT YOURSELF...... IT ALL REVOLVES AROUND PEOPLE'S PERSPECTIVES." "I AM NOT IN ANY WAY IMPLYING YOU NEED TO AGREE WITH ME, I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF I AM TAKING A POSITION. BUT WHAT I AM TRYING TO DO IS TO GET YOU TO THINK ABOUT THESE ISSUES MORE IN DEPTH...... I AM GLAD YOU ASKED ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY GOOD LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL GET OTHERS TO THINK ABOUT TAKING A POSITION." Hmmmmmm making students think...... we should put him in front of a firing squad for that. He talks about how Clinton bombed the Sudan. I think he makes some very, very good arguments. I think in a few places you can hear the pause in mid sentence and the tape start up again. I think this teacher is doing the job he is paid to do extremely well and we need more teachers like him. I think that because of his views (some legitimate, some out there, some I would be very interested in seeing how he came up with) the Right looks to fry the man. Look how many just on this board IGNORED everything else (including the quotes from the teacher I supplied), evene this thread.... all people on the Right heard was a comparison to Hitler and how he shows that other countries have the right to attack the USA for what we do, if they were to use the same logic we used to attack Iraq, or Cuba or....... I feel sorry because this teacher did a damned good job, educating opening minds to THINK, and is being punished for doing so. I just think if he had taken a pro-Bush stance and the kid taped it and complained that he didn't have the "other side" the Right would find no fault in this at all. Overall, an extremely interesting lecture by an extremely damned good teacher. ![]()
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 03-07-2006 at 07:43 AM.. |
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#39 (permalink) |
Kick Ass Kunoichi
Location: Oregon
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So, according to the teacher (whose interview I just saw on the Today show), he teaches a World Geography course, and was doing a basic overview of some new geography terms when students started asking him about the State of the Union address, which had taken place the previous night. He basically just went along with the questions the students asked--which, according to Matt Lauer, who has heard the whole tape--make it sound like the teacher was being baited.
Notably, he also gave a HUGE disclaimer AFTER the Hitler statement that the Today Show played. All in all, I think the circumstances of this--the student not reporting it to the principal but taking it to talk radio (and evidently they shopped it around to a number of stations before finding one that would play it), the disclaimer the teacher gave, the line of questioning the students posed--make it one shady suspension. The school board needs to seriously take a look at all of the evidence and realize that this guy is doing what teacher SHOULD do--cause students to think critically. As the teacher said on the Today Show, he encourages his students to think for themselves, and he hopes that that is one thing they can all take away from this.
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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau |
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#40 (permalink) |
Illusionary
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Thing is....one is somewhat hard pressed to make a social studies presentation that actually places bush in a "Good" light....I am not trying to be political here...there are few examples to use that would show the opposite side of this lecture.
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
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Tags |
bush, compared, hitler, suspended, teacher |
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