I'm not the problem, it's idiots like this that are the problem. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ziadel · 03-01-2006, 06:14 PM

ya know, I got kicked off another board recently because I would post a lot of this stuff, I guess it really offended the LEO members, but wtf, the fact that this guy still has a badge is just a testiment to how bad things really are.

bad apples, yadda yadda yadda, but for pete's sake, this guy demonstrated on camera exactly why he is a horrible cop, but for some reason HE IS STILL A COP!

watch the video:

http://cbs4.com/local/local_story_053001510.html

Quote:

After CBS4's Mike Kirsch aired a piece where several South Florida police officers were caught on camera intimidating would-be complainants against their police departments, one officer has taken action against the station in court.

Sergeant Peter Schumanich, of the Lauderhill Police Department, filed an injunction in a Broward County court to stop the airing of the story where he appears on the air and online.

Schumanich was caught on camera cursing and screaming at a member of a police watchdog group who went to his department asking to file a complaint against an unspecified officer. The officer was caught on camera literally chasing down the man out of the police station and off the block, after he did not act the way Schumanich wanted him to.

Judge Goldstein denied the temporary injunction.

Another hearing is scheduled for March 3rd.

transcript of video:

Quote:

(Lauderhill P.D.
tester: Yeah, I wanted to find out how to file a complaint against an officer. I just want to find out how you do it. Do you guys have a form or something that I could take with me.
officer: Well, you got to tell me first, and then I got to hear what's going on. You've got to tell me what the complaint is.
tester: Do you have a complaint form that I can, like, fill out or something like that?
officer: Might not be a legitimate complaint.
tester: Who decides that?
officer: I'm trying to help you.
tester: Like, if there's a form, why can't I just take it and leave, right?
officer: No, you don't leave with forms. You tell me what happened, and then I help you from there. Do you have I-D on?
tester: Why?
officer: You know what? You need to leave.
tester: Why?
officer: I'm going to tell you one more time, because I can't do this anymore with you, okay. You're refusing to tell me what you want to do, okay. You're refusing to tell me who's involved, where it happened, what transpired. You'e not cooperating iwth me one bit.
tester: I was just asking if you guys have a complaint form, like if there's some way for me --
officer: Out of my way.
tester: To contact Internal Affairs.
officer: You can do whatever the hell you want. It's a free country.
man" You're cursing at me.
officer: Where do you live? Where do you live? You have to tell me where you live, what your name is, or anything like that.
tester: For a complaint? I mean, like, if I have --
officer: Are you on medications?
tester: Why would you ask me something like that?
officer: Because you're not answering any of my questions.
tester: Am I on medications?
officer: I asked you. It's a free country. I can ask you that.
tester: Okay, you're right.
officer: So you're not going to tell me who you are, you're not going to tell me what the problem is.You're not going to identify yourself.
tester: All I asked you was, like, how do I contact --
officer: You said you have a complaint. You say my officers are acting in an inappropriate manner.
officer: So leave now. Leave now. Leave now.
tester: I'm not doing anything wrong.
officer: Neither am I. It's a free country.
officer: I'm not in your face. I'm standing on the sidewalk. It's a free country. One more step forward, and you'll see what happens. Take one more step forward.)

Carno · 03-01-2006, 06:20 PM

Sheesh.

"To serve and protect."

That cop definitely had an attitude problem.

Manic_Skafe · 03-01-2006, 08:37 PM

Not only did he refuse to do his job but he threatened the saftey of one of the people he's supposed to serve and protect - not only should he lose his job but she should spend a night or two on the other side of the prison bars.

A few nights on a jail bunk and some community service would serve him right.

ziadel · 03-02-2006, 04:52 PM

ya know, for the life of me I cannot understand why there is not more outrage about nonsense like this.

yellowchef · 03-02-2006, 07:25 PM

welcome to south fl, its just like new orleans, police corruption, mayoral corruption, judicial corruption. Try to do something right and it blows up in your face.

In Palm Beach county, for the sheriffs office you can file a complaint or give a commendation online at www.pbso.org me thinks thats the site

Zeraph · 03-02-2006, 08:52 PM

Yeesh, either someone whos really a big asshole, or he's covering up something even worse (by making sure complaints go through him first).

Jinn · 03-03-2006, 08:54 AM

I dunno, I hate being bullied but I didn't think that video was that bad. Anonymity is one thing, but that reporter was definitely being evasive. I might be a little suspicious too if someone came in wanting to complain but wouldn't even give me a basic idea of what happened. Frankly, I think he should have asked for a form, and when the officer told him that he couldn't take one, left. He escalated the situtation, asshole cop or not.

Bill O'Rights · 03-03-2006, 09:24 AM

*sigh*
I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story.

Carno · 03-03-2006, 09:41 AM

Care to enlighten us?

xepherys · 03-03-2006, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

ya know, for the life of me I cannot understand why there is not more outrage about nonsense like this.

There are too many things in today's world that outrage me... I'm about to hit empty on my outrage tank. *sigh*

genuinegirly · 03-03-2006, 09:48 AM

There are a lot of jerks in the world.
Beginning to understand why so few people seem to trust cops.

Plaid13 · 03-04-2006, 09:27 AM

That guy should not be a cop. If someone askes a question like that they should give a quick clear answer or tell them where they can find out. He is getting paid to deal with stuff like that and he wasnt doing it. wasnt acting professional or even like a mature adult for that matter. Now if this guy was acting like that while working in a grocery store or a factory or something it would be fine just another every day asshole. But people that are trusted to protect everyone should never act like that. I dont ever want to see anyone thats paid to carry a gun get that uptight and defensive about a question. Even if the complaint was about him he should of told them exactly what needed to be done or how to go about reporting a complaint. cops should expect people to complain about them and unless he was really doing something wrong nothing would happen to him anyway. I would personaly much rather see cops like this fired even if they couldnt be replaced. its better to have less cops then have bad cops around.

percy · 03-04-2006, 10:03 AM

I see nothing wrong with what the cop did. He repeatedly asked the guy what the complaint was and as far as I can tell, the guy was jerking him around. I would have done the same thing.

If you have a complaint, you have to address that complaint so that the cops can proceed with their business. This cop doesn't know if this guy is a crackpot, on meditation or what ever. Saying the cop has an attitude? I'd say the cop was doing his job and the idiot hired by the tv station has the attitude.

filtherton · 03-04-2006, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

*sigh*
I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story.

By all means.

KungFuGuy · 03-05-2006, 10:07 PM

The cop seemed to be acting alright, and then he comes out of nowhere with a 'you have to leave now'.

I wasn't aware that a citizen could be thrown out of a police station when that citizen was seeking police assistance.

Also, I can understand why the police officer would ask for the circumstances of the situation, even if it's just out of curiosity.

Where he messed up was not helping the guy and getting him the correct form and answering his question. It was basically a refusal to do his job.

To be fair, the guy asking for the form of complaint escalated the situation. The intelligent thing to say would have been, "i'm not comfortable talking about it without my lawyer present, please just give me the form." He was baiting the cop from the beginning and the cop bit.

ziadel · 03-07-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

*sigh*
I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story.

last time I checked there wasnt anything actually more impartial than film, so as far as I am concerned, I do have both sides of the story.
Mebbe some creative editing could have created some of it, but come on man, there was stuff on that tape, that a cop saying to anyone under any cicumstances is horrendous.

healer · 03-08-2006, 01:02 AM

I'm not able to download video, so I'm going by the transcript.

I can understand that the cop was curious as to what the complaint was about. I mean if someone walked in off the street and asked how they could go about filing a complaint against one of my colleagues, I'd want to know who/why, even if it was just to give my buddy a head's up.

Where he messed up, IMO, was where he denied the guy access to the station to go in and grab a complaint form. I mean come on - he wanted to get a form and leave. How much trouble can that cause?

And why does he want to know where the guy lives or what his name is?

Quote:

It's a free country. One more step forward, and you'll see what happens. Take one more step forward.

I don't think a police officer should conduct himself in such a manner.

vanblah · 03-08-2006, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

*sigh*
I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story.

Was there another camera that we didn't see that recorded something differently?

The cop in this video was being EVERY bit as evasive as the "tester." Either there is a form or there isn't. If there is not a form, just say so. Although, I can't think of any "public service" organization that doesn't have a complaint form.

Why should this person, asking a simple question, be requested for ID? This is not a military state, this is not a fascism. American citizens are allowed and encouraged to question authority.

THAT'S WHY THE SYSTEM WORKS. If you remove the ability to question authority and hold those figures up to scrutiny then the system stops working.

Sultana · 03-08-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

last time I checked there wasnt anything actually more impartial than film...

Not commenting on the story directly (don't want to click on video links at work), but for the record, film is no more "impartial" than anything else.

ziadel · 03-08-2006, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

*sigh*
I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story.

I'm still waiting...

Honestly, I could respect it if you really wanted to stay out of it, but you pretty much just said, "hey, I was a cop, I don't really have a foot to stand on in this argument, and I don't want to be involved with this thread, but the cop was manipulated, ok? buhbye."

first off, you're not staying out of it, you're in it.
second, cops sticking up for other, obviously really bad cops is what causes half of the negative public perception that you have to contend with.

now if you really wanna play guerilla message board commando, thats cool, I can't force you to answer, just realize, in my opinion anyways, what you have just done is detrimental to the perception of LEO's everywhere, good and bad.
what is to be gained by not telling us the whole story if facts have been blatantly manipulated? Or is the "whole" story some sort of speech from you along the lines of, 'It's a thank;ess dangerous job, blah blah blah' Tell us! It's not like they will confiscate your decoder ring or something is it?

If you really have more information to give, what is to be gained by sitting on it?

Hard8s · 03-08-2006, 07:10 PM

I see differing aspects to this, yes the cop went to far...but so did the person going in. The cop should have given them a complaint form, but the person should not be afraid to tell this Sargent the complaint. If as in this story there was no real complaint, there is nothing for the guy to tell the Sargent. With this person being evasive, it would have thrown up all sorts of red flags. Remember that cops are paid to get to the bottom of things, and are suppossed to check into suspicious activity. When the guy just got even more evasive, and left, I think it was his duty to make sure nothing else was wrong with him. Where he stepped over the line again was in provoking the man at the end of the tape.

Don't act suspicious and the cops don't get involved. How many episodes of "Cops" show them just driving down the street and someone takes off running? When they chase that guy down, they find wants and warrants, or drugs, etc. Now if these guys didn't take off running, they most likely would never have been chased.

timalkin · 03-08-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

ya know, I got kicked off another board recently because I would post a lot of this stuff, I guess it really offended the LEO members...

Let me guess, you have had many "interactions" with the police. The police have bullied you and put you in jail for things that you didn't do, so now you have a prejudice against police officers. Am I getting close?

ziadel · 03-08-2006, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

Let me guess, you have had many "interactions" with the police. The police have bullied you and put you in jail for things that you didn't do, so now you have a prejudice against police officers. Am I getting close?

actually, your wrong. never been to jail. hell, I've only managed to wrack up one speeding ticket thus far

I'm just a fan of the Constitution

ziadel · 03-08-2006, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hard8s

I see differing aspects to this, yes the cop went to far...but so did the person going in. The cop should have given them a complaint form, but the person should not be afraid to tell this Sargent the complaint. If as in this story there was no real complaint, there is nothing for the guy to tell the Sargent. With this person being evasive, it would have thrown up all sorts of red flags. Remember that cops are paid to get to the bottom of things, and are suppossed to check into suspicious activity. When the guy just got even more evasive, and left, I think it was his duty to make sure nothing else was wrong with him. Where he stepped over the line again was in provoking the man at the end of the tape.

Don't act suspicious and the cops don't get involved. How many episodes of "Cops" show them just driving down the street and someone takes off running? When they chase that guy down, they find wants and warrants, or drugs, etc. Now if these guys didn't take off running, they most likely would never have been chased.

I don't think the person who went in after the form really crossed any lines, those lines do have names by the way, its called lawful and unlawful, while what he did might have been very odd, it's not illegal.

If the cop had any and I do mean any reason to haul that guy in he would have. I think that is pretty obvious. And how did he take off running, did'nt they ask him to leave? (I may be wrong, I'll watch again later) Hell, even if he DID literally take off running, wheres the crime?

Even if the tester set out just to ruin this cops life, that doesn't really concern me. The bottom line is he put this officer to a test and the officer failed, miserably. Theres just no excuse for threatening to shoot a law abiding citizen no matter how odd they may be.

Frozen North · 03-09-2006, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hard8s

I see differing aspects to this, yes the cop went to far...but so did the person going in. The cop should have given them a complaint form, but the person should not be afraid to tell this Sargent the complaint. If as in this story there was no real complaint, there is nothing for the guy to tell the Sargent. With this person being evasive, it would have thrown up all sorts of red flags. Remember that cops are paid to get to the bottom of things, and are suppossed to check into suspicious activity. When the guy just got even more evasive, and left, I think it was his duty to make sure nothing else was wrong with him. Where he stepped over the line again was in provoking the man at the end of the tape.

Don't act suspicious and the cops don't get involved. How many episodes of "Cops" show them just driving down the street and someone takes off running? When they chase that guy down, they find wants and warrants, or drugs, etc. Now if these guys didn't take off running, they most likely would never have been chased.

With the stories of police corruption/tapes of police beatings we see in the news, (yes, i know it's not nearly as bad as the Shock Media would have me believe) I would be a little reluctant to tell an officer's sergeant my complaint. IMO, and I think the Constitution would agree with me, the sergeant has no right to know who the complaintant is unless he's the one being accused. The whole point of having Internal Affairs is to prevent situations like this from occuring.

If nothing else, the sergeant shouldn't have followed the guy out the door and threatened him. I like how the sergeant said "it's a free country" when the tester asked him why the sergeant was following him, then turned around and said something to the effect of "take one step closer to me and see what happens" when the tester was 10-20 ft away.

tecoyah · 03-09-2006, 02:57 AM

This is a tough call, on the one hand I would kinda expect to face some sort of reaction by pushing the unwritten limitations of someones patience, and as they are in a position of authority the reaction might carry relatively heavy implications. On the other hand I would hope that the individual , due to the position was chosen/trained to control this reaction better than the average person.
I am torn on my opinion here, but if I were the "tester" in this scenario, Hindsight would show me as an Idiot.

florida0214 · 03-10-2006, 08:01 AM

I wish whis would have been a bigger deal. I live in south Florida and it was like oh well. This is why police officers are regarded with such little esteem. I mean think about it. Our taxes pay their salaries so theoretically we are their boss. Something ass little as making a complaint should not have been this diffucult. Police officers are their to srve and protect us. I understand a little bit of protect your brother, I am , after all, in the military, but that takes it too far. There comes a point when you can no longer protect somebody. you have to wash your hands of the situation and understand that a wrong was committed and it needs to be fixed. Anyway just my .02

stevo · 03-30-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill o'rights

I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story.

DING-DING we have a winner...

Quote:

TV Station Accused of Entrapment
Thursday March 30 2006 7:33

One of this city's leading TV news departments is drawing the ire of the Independence Police Department after pulling a stunt designed to trap law enforcement officials in a compromising position. Sources tell KMBZ, that KCTV Channel 5 sent a man to the Independence police department late, early Saturday morning with a phony story about wanting to want to file a complaint about an officer. When that proved impossible...the man became aggressive and tried to get officers to overreact. The Independence police chief is considering legal action against Channel 5 and the Police Complaint Center saying this whole episode is really disappointing.

=======

Channel 5 didn't come up with the idea of this story on its own. A south Florida television did the same thing back in February. WFOR T-V had a producer -- with a hidden camera --- visit 38 police agencies in Broward & Miami-Dade counties asking to get a form to file a complaint against an officer. The story said most of the time, police were courteous & professional but others were not. Since then, a Broward County Police union has posted a "be-on-the-lookout" alert on the WFOR investigative reporter on its website. WFOR by the way is a CBS affiliate.

(kmbz)

http://www.kmbz.com/listingsEntry.as...ocal+Headlines

03-01-2006, 06:20 PM	#2 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Sheesh. "To serve and protect." That cop definitely had an attitude problem. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

03-01-2006, 08:37 PM	#3 (permalink)
Manic_Skafe More Than You Expect Location: Queens	Not only did he refuse to do his job but he threatened the saftey of one of the people he's supposed to serve and protect - not only should he lose his job but she should spend a night or two on the other side of the prison bars. A few nights on a jail bunk and some community service would serve him right. __________________ "Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

03-02-2006, 04:52 PM	#4 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	ya know, for the life of me I cannot understand why there is not more outrage about nonsense like this. __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

03-02-2006, 07:25 PM	#5 (permalink)
yellowchef Addict Location: Shalimar, FL	welcome to south fl, its just like new orleans, police corruption, mayoral corruption, judicial corruption. Try to do something right and it blows up in your face. In Palm Beach county, for the sheriffs office you can file a complaint or give a commendation online at www.pbso.org me thinks thats the site __________________ the voices in your head are not real--but they still have some really great ideas. always remeber you can choose your friends, but you can't choose your family. But..you CAN choose the insane asylum where you have them all put away!

03-03-2006, 08:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I dunno, I hate being bullied but I didn't think that video was that bad. Anonymity is one thing, but that reporter was definitely being evasive. I might be a little suspicious too if someone came in wanting to complain but wouldn't even give me a basic idea of what happened. Frankly, I think he should have asked for a form, and when the officer told him that he couldn't take one, left. He escalated the situtation, asshole cop or not. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

03-02-2006, 08:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Yeesh, either someone whos really a big asshole, or he's covering up something even worse (by making sure complaints go through him first).

03-03-2006, 09:24 AM	#8 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	sigh I'm an ex-cop, so I'm not getting involved with this one. I will say, however, that I am familiar with this particular incident, and you're only getting a one sided version of it. You don't have the whole story. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

03-03-2006, 09:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Care to enlighten us? __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

03-03-2006, 09:48 AM	#11 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	There are a lot of jerks in the world. Beginning to understand why so few people seem to trust cops. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

03-04-2006, 09:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	That guy should not be a cop. If someone askes a question like that they should give a quick clear answer or tell them where they can find out. He is getting paid to deal with stuff like that and he wasnt doing it. wasnt acting professional or even like a mature adult for that matter. Now if this guy was acting like that while working in a grocery store or a factory or something it would be fine just another every day asshole. But people that are trusted to protect everyone should never act like that. I dont ever want to see anyone thats paid to carry a gun get that uptight and defensive about a question. Even if the complaint was about him he should of told them exactly what needed to be done or how to go about reporting a complaint. cops should expect people to complain about them and unless he was really doing something wrong nothing would happen to him anyway. I would personaly much rather see cops like this fired even if they couldnt be replaced. its better to have less cops then have bad cops around.

03-04-2006, 10:03 AM	#13 (permalink)
percy Addict	I see nothing wrong with what the cop did. He repeatedly asked the guy what the complaint was and as far as I can tell, the guy was jerking him around. I would have done the same thing. If you have a complaint, you have to address that complaint so that the cops can proceed with their business. This cop doesn't know if this guy is a crackpot, on meditation or what ever. Saying the cop has an attitude? I'd say the cop was doing his job and the idiot hired by the tv station has the attitude.

03-05-2006, 10:07 PM	#15 (permalink)
KungFuGuy Insane	The cop seemed to be acting alright, and then he comes out of nowhere with a 'you have to leave now'. I wasn't aware that a citizen could be thrown out of a police station when that citizen was seeking police assistance. Also, I can understand why the police officer would ask for the circumstances of the situation, even if it's just out of curiosity. Where he messed up was not helping the guy and getting him the correct form and answering his question. It was basically a refusal to do his job. To be fair, the guy asking for the form of complaint escalated the situation. The intelligent thing to say would have been, "i'm not comfortable talking about it without my lawyer present, please just give me the form." He was baiting the cop from the beginning and the cop bit.

03-08-2006, 07:10 PM	#21 (permalink)
Hard8s Addict Location: Wherever I am!	I see differing aspects to this, yes the cop went to far...but so did the person going in. The cop should have given them a complaint form, but the person should not be afraid to tell this Sargent the complaint. If as in this story there was no real complaint, there is nothing for the guy to tell the Sargent. With this person being evasive, it would have thrown up all sorts of red flags. Remember that cops are paid to get to the bottom of things, and are suppossed to check into suspicious activity. When the guy just got even more evasive, and left, I think it was his duty to make sure nothing else was wrong with him. Where he stepped over the line again was in provoking the man at the end of the tape. Don't act suspicious and the cops don't get involved. How many episodes of "Cops" show them just driving down the street and someone takes off running? When they chase that guy down, they find wants and warrants, or drugs, etc. Now if these guys didn't take off running, they most likely would never have been chased. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, then wipe this smile off my face!

03-09-2006, 02:57 AM	#26 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	This is a tough call, on the one hand I would kinda expect to face some sort of reaction by pushing the unwritten limitations of someones patience, and as they are in a position of authority the reaction might carry relatively heavy implications. On the other hand I would hope that the individual , due to the position was chosen/trained to control this reaction better than the average person. I am torn on my opinion here, but if I were the "tester" in this scenario, Hindsight would show me as an Idiot. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-10-2006, 08:01 AM	#27 (permalink)
florida0214 Crazy Location: South Florida	I wish whis would have been a bigger deal. I live in south Florida and it was like oh well. This is why police officers are regarded with such little esteem. I mean think about it. Our taxes pay their salaries so theoretically we are their boss. Something ass little as making a complaint should not have been this diffucult. Police officers are their to srve and protect us. I understand a little bit of protect your brother, I am , after all, in the military, but that takes it too far. There comes a point when you can no longer protect somebody. you have to wash your hands of the situation and understand that a wrong was committed and it needs to be fixed. Anyway just my .02 __________________ "Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."