dawnoffawn

There's no comparison between eating pigs and depicting their Prophet. Their prophet is considered a Holy, revered figure. Eating/not eating pigs isn't.
Pigs are eaten by alot of people from other religions, so it's not a private, holy matter. But who benefits by insulting a group of people by depicting what is prohibited in thier religion???
It's like showing Nazi cartoons with chopping Jew's heads off. I'm sure many, including me, would be very offended.

n0nsensical

I could have hardly said it better myself. Where was that article originally published?

Who benefits from any political cartoons at all then? And please, why should it matter to the rest of us that this is prohibited by their religion? Requring everyone to respect any prohibition of Islam is a violation of religious freedom. Indeed to me this boils down to a debate over freedom of religion just as much as one over freedom of speech. It seems to me that these protesters would like nothing less than the abolition of the principles behind the First Amendment, and that's not something I can find in any way acceptable. I honestly hope I don't live to see the day we in the civilized world give up those fought and died for rights for the sake of a group of people (certainly not including all Muslims) stuck in the dark ages.

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"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

dlish

just an excuse to cause violence..hah!

many people here seem to think that it is in muslims innate nature to attack embassies and make violent protestations.

while i make no excuse for any violence whatsoever..nor for calling of peoples heads... the muslims do have a right to protest against what they think is right/wrong.

out of 1.1 billion muslims worldwide...how many..100,000 went out and protested..not all commited violent crimes.... and here we are condemning a quarter of the worlds population.

although it is no excuse..people should remember that people behave differently in crowds than in person. the power of the masses makes people do silly things, and things are even more inflamed when people add fuel to the fire with incitations.

the same could be said at G8 conference protests and all those anti-government and underground groups becoming violent. my point... people act differently whilst in groups.. as food for thought, maybe kerbing the protests somehow we can kerb the violence with checks in place... i dunno.. just my thoughts

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

dlish

yeah... rings a bell, but its not coming to me yet jwoody :P

in fact malcolm was my teenage idol, although militant initially, id rather remember him by his mannerisms in the later stages of his life, from which you got that quote... but what i loved most about malcom x was his ability to criticize himself and move through severeal stages through life, abruptly ended as el hajj malik el shabbaz.

here is another to rekindle your memory..

" I, myself, do not judge a man by the color of his skin. The yardstick that I use to judge a man is his deeds, his behavior, his intentions"

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Aladdin Sane

It is worth repeating:
Even if only 1 percent of the world’s 1.2 billion Muslims were to end up being seduced by the global jihad, the West and moderate Muslim regimes would still have to deal with some 12 million jihadists spread across more than 60 countries. And if only 1 percent of these 12 million were to opt for “martyrdom operations,” the West would still have to deal, for a generation at least, with some 120,000 suicide bombers.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

james t kirk

I keep thinking of the show "Rescue Me" in which Denis Leary keeps seeing Jesus and Mary Magdelene throughout the second season.

Mary talks with a New York accent and complains about Jesus putting off getting married for 2 thousand years and Jesus is this sort of hippy who never preaches, but just sort of questions and listens. (Though he (Jesus) does drive a Ferrari.)

It actually works in the show, it's a bit controversal with some I am sure, but it works.

I think for the third season Denis should start seeing Mohamed and see what the reaction is. Something tells me it wouldn't be so good.

rofgilead

Killing people over a cartoon is insane.
Burning buildings, etc, over a cartoon is insane.

Doesn't matter if it is a portrayal of Mohammed with a bomb on his head, or protrayal of Jews being exterminated (which probably is printed often in many middle eastern countries like Iran).. these people are crazy!

The blame should be on the leaders of the countries and religious leaders who demonize the west (like how the Nazi's demonized the Jews) to take attention away from how badly run their countries dictatorships are.

Strange Famous

the whole thing is just nuts. These cartoons werent very funny, very clever, or very offensive.

This difference in connection to reality as struck me before... like how the American soldiers tortured Muslims by urinating in a Qu'ran and flushing it down the toilet... if someone tried to flush a Torah down the toiler I'd just think that it was an idiot thing to do cos the toilet would gte blocked.

I thinl we must not lose sight of the fact thet most Muslims, the huge majority, are perfectly normal people... but at the same time the religion seems to either attract more nutso's, or give the nutso's more power....

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

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xepherys

Dunno if anyone noticed, but there was news today about a cleric in Pakistan offering $1M for the murder of (apparently) any of the Danish cartoonists. *sigh*

Ace_O_Spades

A little Bob the Angry Flower to lighten the mood:

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Feh.

Aladdin Sane

And another 9 or 10 people killed in Libya.
Morons.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

stevie667

lol, thats pretty funny

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Astrocloud

highthief

So, what's the score now? How many Danish cartoonists are dead versus how many Muslims have killed each other over this?

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Aladdin Sane

We've got Muslim Arabs killing Muslim Arabs because they are angry at a Danish cartoon (A CARTOON!) that implies Muslims are violent. You can't make this stuff up folks! If this situation was part of a Hollywood movie it would be protested as the vilest sort of propaganda and religious insensitivity. Then the protests would probably result in the death of Muslim protesters at the hands of other Muslims and in an effort to tell the story Newspapers would be accused of intolerance and insensitivity and then...

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

william

Okay, I'm not a Rhodes Scholar, or anything close, but a couple of things make me curious about this whole thing:
This cartoon was printed in Aug. or Sept. of last year - why the protests now?
If Mohammed is the person they say he was/is, why the violence?
The real problem is, we're dealing w/a 3rd world country that thinks they are world class. It's a different mind-set. I've seen it in places like Panama and Korea. We live in a country that has a seperation of church and state (at least for now). As such, we do not fully understand everything that the Muslims feel of the cartoon. I can't think of a true comparison between the Muslims and others, because, honestly, I do not understand how - if Mohammed was/is as compassionate as they say - they are so violent.

Aladdin Sane

When will this madness end? Just when you think you've heard of the vilest possible cruelty committed in the name of Islam, these barbarians take to beating children to death and burning people alive.

At Least 15 Die in Nigeria Cartoon Protest

By NJADVARA MUSA, Associated Press Writer 13 minutes ago

Nigerian Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad attacked Christians and burned churches on Saturday, killing at least 15 people in the deadliest confrontation yet in the whirlwind of Muslim anger over the drawings.

It was the first major protest to erupt over the issue in Africa's most populous nation. An Associated Press reporter saw mobs of Muslim protesters swarm through the city center with machetes, sticks and iron rods. One group threw a tire around a man, poured gas on him and set him ablaze.

Thousands of rioters burned 15 churches in Maiduguri in a three-hour rampage before troops and police reinforcements restored order, Nigerian police spokesman Haz Iwendi said. Iwendi said security forces arrested dozens of people in the city about 1,000 miles northeast of the capital, Lagos.

Chima Ezeoke, a Christian Maiduguri resident, said protesters attacked and looted shops owned by minority Christians, most of them with origins in the country's south.

"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters," Ezeoke said. Witnesses said three children and a priest were among those killed.

The Danish cartoons, including one showing Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban with an ignited fuse, have set off sometimes violent protests around the world.

But Nigeria has been spared much of the violence seen elsewhere in the world, though lawmakers in the heavily Muslim state of Kano burned Danish and Norwegian flags and barred Danish companies from bidding on a major construction project. Kano lawmakers also called on the state's 5 million people to boycott Danish goods.

Nigeria, with a population of more than 130 million, is roughly divided between a predominantly Muslim north and a mainly Christian south.

With Saturday's deaths, at least 45 people have been killed in protests across the Muslim world, according to a count by The Associated Press.

In the violence in Libya, Seif el-Islam Gadhafi, the son of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, said four of the 11 dead were believed to have been Egyptians or Palestinians.

In Pakistan on Sunday, police raided offices and homes of dozens of radical Islamic leaders, putting several under house arrest and detaining hundreds of their associates to foil a rally in the capital, officials said.

So far the West and Islamic nations remain at loggerheads over fundamental, but conflicting cultural imperatives — the Western democratic assertion of a right to free speech and press freedom, versus the Islamic dictum against any representation of the Prophet Muhammad. Muslims say such depictions could encourage idolatry.

___

Associated Press writer Dulue Mbachu in Lagos and Khaled al-Deeb in Tripoli, Libya, contributed to this report.[FONT=Century Gothic]

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Aladdin Sane

This is really cool. It's a comment on the Cartoon Kerfluffle by a Dutch (not Danish) cartoonist:
http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?ln=nl...TOKEN=57221010

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

rainheart

I had a very long winded post where I replied to about 3 pages worth of quotes from many of you people and wanted to argue against each and every one of you, and agree wholeheartedly with a few.

I might post it if I finish reading all 7 pages.

I don't think you guys realize how fast this entire thing is spiraling into the new Franz Ferdinand.

In fact, let me just say (most of) you are all a bunch of tools for the people who manipulate you, and you don't deserve a better world. But I live in that world and I'll be damned if I let it go on like this.

highthief

Make friends easily, don't you?

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Charlatan

You know, it's one thing to say something as inflammatory as this but it's another to say and explain yourself.

Why do you think it is the beginning of another world war? Who will be the sides of this world war? Who is manipulating who (I see a lot of manipulation on all sides of this particular issue). You say you will be damned if you let if go on... what are you going to do about it?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

highthief

Quiet, you "tool" you!

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

Charlatan

/me being quiet and hammer-like... just waiting to strike.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Aladdin Sane

Charlatan, I don't think you have a thing to worry about. From reading some of rainheart's previous posts, he is casting his supreme judgement not at you and your philosophical bretheren, but at me and mine.

I love it when individuals come along who are able to rise above the fray.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Aladdin Sane

Here's more from the Religion of Peace, just so we don't lose focus:

Muslims Target U.S. Embassy in Indonesia

Sunday, February 19, 2006

JAKARTA, Indonesia — Hundreds of Muslims protesting caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad tried to storm the U.S. Embassy on Sunday, smashing the windows of a guard post but failing to push through the gates. Several people were injured.

Pakistani security forces, meanwhile, sealed off the capital of Islamabad to block a planned mass demonstration and fired tear gas and gunshots to chase off protesters. In Turkey, tens of thousands gathered in Istanbul chanting slogans against Denmark, Israel and the United States.

Protests over the cartoons, which first appeared in a Danish newspaper in September and have been republished in other European publications and elsewhere, have swept across the Muslim world, growing into mass outlets for rage against the West in general, and Israel and the United States in particular.

Christians also have become targets. Pakistani Muslims protesting in the southern city of Sukkur ransacked and burned a church Sunday after hearing accusations that a Christian man had burned pages of the Koran, Islam's holy book.

That incident came a day after Muslims protesting in the Nigerian city of Maiduguri attacked Christians and burned 15 churches in a three-hour rampage that killed at least 15 people. Some 30 other people have died during protests over the cartoons that erupted about three weeks ago.

In Jakarta, about 400 people marched to the heavily fortified U.S. mission in the center of the city, behind a banner reading "We are ready to attack the enemies of the Prophet."

Protesters throwing stones and brandishing wooden staves tried to break through the gates. They set fire to U.S. flags and a poster of President Bush and smashed the windows of a guard outpost before dispersing after a few minutes.

The U.S. Embassy called the attacks deplorable, describing them as acts of "thuggery."

A protest organizer said the West, and particularly the United States, is attacking Islam.

"They want to destroy Islam through the issue of terrorism ... and all those things are engineered by the United States," said Maksuni, who only uses one name.

"We are fighting America fiercely this time," he said. "And we also are fighting Denmark."

In Pakistan, where protests last week left five people dead, police put up roadblocks around Islamabad to keep people from entering the capital for a planned mass protest called by a coalition of six hard-line Islamic parties, the Mutahida Majlis-e-Amal — United Action Forum.

Authorities also detained several lawmakers and Islamic leaders during raids in three cities and announced they would arrest anyone joining a gathering of more than five people to prevent the demonstration.

Opposition leader Maulana Fazlur Rahman, a senior figure in the Islamic coalition, was eventually given permission to lead a small rally through a square in the city center. The protesters chanted "God is great!" and "Any friend of America is a traitor."

But when about 100 other protesters tried to reach the square, officers fired tear gas and at least one gunshot to chase them off. More gunshots were heard later in the city, but it wasn't clear who fired them. At least two policemen were injured, one bleeding from the head. Several demonstrators also were hurt.

A crowd of 700 people, some throwing stones at police, tried to march toward Islamabad's heavily guarded diplomatic enclave about 1.3 miles from the square but with blocked by troops in armored personnel carriers.

Police also blocked about 1,500 protesters from reaching Islamabad from the city of Peshawar by putting shipping containers and sandbags on a bridge along a highway leading to the capital, said Mohammed Iqbal, a key member of the religious alliance.

Elsewhere in Pakistan, about 600 people staged a protest in Chaman, a town near the Afghan border, burning Danish flags and an effigy of the Danish prime minister.

Such protests prompted Denmark on Sunday to temporarily recall its ambassador to Pakistan, Bent Wigotski, because it was impossible for him "to perform his job duties during the present circumstances," the Danish Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

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Charlatan

The hammer comment was a joke...

Regardless of his position, I feel he needs to explain himself rather than just dropping in with a comment like that.

As for losing focus, I think you should remember that most of us who are not so quick to condemn all of Islam for these protests are not supporting the violence or denying that it is a bad thing.

I think some on the other end of the spectrum forget this far too often in their efforts to polarize these events.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Aladdin Sane

I'm not sure who here has condemned all of Islam. I've not noticed any of that. I'm more concerned about those here who would dismiss such thugery and barbarism by making excuses for the barbarians.

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Aladdin Sane

THE CARTOON WARS have many people rethinking "tolerance." Personally, I'm opposed to the asymmetrical variety. Tolerance is a two-way street. Those who do not grant it, have no right to demand it.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

xepherys

I'm a bit worried about how this might play out. I certainly have not condemned Islam as a whole. The very few Muslims I have known through my life have been model citizens. However, when your enemy (those who would do you harm) hide behind the banner of a larger cause... how long can one not become angry at the cause itself?

rainheart

I gotta head out right now but I'm putting together a response to what you guys said about my post. Yes, I was frustrated with what I read.

Believe me, I am not going to be making excuses for the barbarians- I condemn them as much as others, but I don't let that bridge the logic gap which leads many of us to think "well we should rid ourselves of islam and drive away it's followers because they are so bad."

So no, I won't be appeasing barbarians, neither the stupid portion of otherwise apathetic secularists, nor the stupid portions of blind muslim extremists.

Aladdin Sane

I am glad to be at the opposite pole from anyone who would burn children alive, murder priests, torch embassies, and threaten genocide because they don't like a cartoon. Damned glad.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Charlatan

This is exactly the kind of divisive language that makes me shake my head. Instead of recognizing that *all* points on the spectrum of this thread agree that violent protest is unacceptable you suggest that those whose opinion differs from your support it.

The only differences of opinion in this thread about this whole situation are:

1) that not all Islam is to blame, only a minority of extremists
2) that perhaps freedom of expression comes with a responsibility rather than just a carte blanche to print, say or do what ever you feel.

That's really it beyond some minor sirmishes about root causes, which are not especially relevant to the topic at hand (though no less interesting).

If it wasn't your intention to level that backhanded swipe at at least half the posters in this thread, then I apologize and suggest that you take more care in what you are saying and how you say it.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

trickyy

how about one garbage post?

ok

Aladdin Sane

The only backhanded swipe I've seen here is you suggesting that someone is blaming "all of Islam." I will be waiting for your apology to at least half of the posters here and watching to see if you take more care in the future in what you say. You are becoming rather provocative. Such language may lead to rioting, murder, and burning Canadians alive. Can't you temper your language with alittle responsibility?

A few years ago in Germany there was a gang of Neo-NAZI skinheads that torched the houses of Turkist immigrants. It seems the skinheads were offended by the Turks, and the skinheads felt the Turkish immigrants were an affront to their fascist beliefs. In fact, the publication of local Turkish newspapers and shops with signs printed in the Turkish language were quite evident in the neighborhood.
Is it fair to say that the presence of so much Turkish culture in the neighborhood "inflamed" the local skinheads? Should you suggest that the Turks try to change their behavior so the skinheads would not be inflamed to carry out acts of savagry? Would it be reasonable to insist that the immigrants only speak and write in German in order to show "responsibility"?
But today, while Muslim barbarians, acting in the name of their religion
"swarm through the city center with machetes, sticks and iron rods [and] throw a tire around a man, pour gas on him and set him ablaze,"

we are inevitably reminded by the PC police in this forum and elsewhere that the Danish cartoons were not "responsible."

Is it irresponsible to reprint this AP press report?
Quote: "Thousands of rioters burned 15 churches in Maiduguri in a three-hour rampage before troops and police reinforcements restored order, Nigerian police spokesman Haz Iwendi said. Iwendi said security forces arrested dozens of people in the city about 1,000 miles northeast of the capital, Lagos."

Or would it be more responsible to tell the truth of what is happening?
Would you say the AP is irresponsible for reporting that
"Most of the dead were Christians beaten to death on the streets by the rioters . . . Witnesses said three children and a priest were among those killed..."

Someone is offended by something spoken, printed or broadcast each and every minute of each and every day. If "having offense" were the test; the threshold freedom should never cross, nothing would ever be printed or reported.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Charlatan

Aladdin... we have to be participating in two different threads.

The main trust of the debate, as I have seen it, has been the two items I listed above. Whatever. Continue to label us "PC" if that makes you feel empowered.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Val_1

Well ... I was going to add something to this thread ... but I think I'll just slowly walk out ... getting a little heated in here :-)

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rainheart

Alright let's see...

=] Actually, yes.

Right, I apologize if it seemed inflammatory but I got pretty worked up reading the first 3 pages of responses.

I'm not saying this is definitively the beginning of another world war, rather I am saying that at this rate of polarization, it could easily degenerate into it if we let it continue.

And to tell you exactly who the players are is very hard to do, the only thing I can give you is my best guess- none of us here have any sort of profound access to that information. My best guess at the moment? Something along the vague idea of the western world vs. the middle east.

Sorry but I found those choice of words very interesting. I'm talking about "philosophical" and "brethren". I don't think we are really getting too philosophical and that we are representatives of different fraternities. I think it's really more a matter of trying to define the reality of this matter and try to discuss what the most conductive solution to this problem would be.

Frankly reading your posts make me very, very scared. Just because I'm angry at you and some other people like you for making some very ignorant comments doesn't mean I am casting supreme judgement- it's no different than some of the things you've said, take a look:

Fallacious. You are equating the cartoonists with the people who are against the violent protests. The cartoonists however seem to care very little about freedom of religion, and freedom from discrimination based on race, religion, and national origin. People against these violent protests include many: moderate liberals, moderate conservatives, moderate muslims, and anyone else who basically, due to being sensible is labelled "moderate" to virtually cast aside some of the verity of their ideas. Bottom line: Not every person who is opposed to islam is a freedom lover.

The islamists and jihadists are seen as holy warriors doing the work of Allah because the Muslims are too stupid to realize that they are being manipulated by them. Exactly how has the actions of Al Qaeda been beneficial to muslims worldwide?

I don't think the real problem is that Muslims are violent. I think the real problem is that people are stupid. A group of protestors in these sorts of circumstances is very prone to rapidly degenerating into an angry lynch mob. Likewise, the backlash to violent Muslim protests seems to justify the reprinting of those prejudiced cartoons in the first place.

People are stupid, because they will respond to hatred with violence, and violence with more violence.

Let's take a gander at what happened then:
These cartoons depicted Muhammed, it is blasphemy to do so in Islam. Well fuck that, I agree that for that reason alone, the cartoons deserve to be reprinted. However, these cartoons did not stop there. They profiled all muslims because of their religion. Muhammed was the prophet who revealed the religion to it's followers, thus any attack on Muhammed will be perceived as an attack on all Muslims. The cartoons depicted all muslims as:
- Amoral
- Terrorists
- Misogynistic
- Aligned with satan

None of these things justify the violent protests. But the cartoons themselves are prejudiced. I should not (and would not) draw a cartoon depicting an average black person in queue for a welfare cheque. I should not draw a cartoon depicting the holy virgin Mary as a whore who bore a fatherless son. This is the same level at which some of those cartoons are.

Some of those cartoons cleverly hide behind the idea that they should be allowed to be reprinted because to refrain from doing so would be to restrict freedom of speech.
1. They are mixed among cartoons which are actually not very inflammatory at all.
2. They pose a question about freedom of speech which has already been answered: free speech and expression is limited to people who use it responsibly, and who implement it along with many civil rights including the freedom to not be discriminated against based on race, religion, and national origin- and many other things which at this time I don't think are relevant to this case in particular.

I disagree with most of this article. Let me explain on which points:
Did you ever stop and ask if it really was not slander against an entire people? There was a bomb in his turban. That's pretty slanderous if you ask me.

I reiterate, the cartoons should not be removed because they depict Muhammed, they should be removed for being prejudiced.

We'll eventually reach this state. We are in a positive feedback loop right now that goes as such:
1. Something happens that is perceived as persecution of muslims by the muslim community, but is not perceived so by the non-muslim community.
2. Muslim extremist leaders take delight and call to arms.
3. The number of muslim extremists increases, and they commit atrocities. The increased number of muslim extremists creates an environment in which the moderate muslims' voices are flooded out- media conglomorates often end up making the case worse.
4. Non muslim societies are disgusted, and they become diametrically opposed to all muslims. Backlash ensues and behold.. another thing happens that is perceived as persecution of muslims by the muslim community. One day it may even actually become persecution of muslims.
5. Rinse & repeat.

Many muslims have already said that random murder for virgins is not in their religion. But the funny thing, Aladdin, is that this article says "their assumption, dangerous in many ways, [is] that the first lynch mob on the scene is actually the genuine voice of the people." How ironic that a person who partakes in this false assumption would post the very article.




I hope you're using "muslim barbarians" as a term to describe a narrow band of muslims.

In response to your questions: "Is it fair to say that the presence of so much Turkish culture in the neighbourhood "inflamed" the local skinheads?" -> No. It is unfair to say that.

"Should you suggest that the Turks try to change their behaviour so the skinheads would not be inflamed ot carry out acts of savagery?" No. I would not.

The problem is that you're asking irrelevant questions. You should be wondering: "Is it fair to say that the cartoons which depicted Muhammed with a bomb in his turban, which depicted him as a misogynist, in which one of them was written 'Prophet! Daft and dumb keeping women under thumb', were offensive to Muslims? Would we be offended if such a thing were said about us?"

I think you are really focussing on defining this as a very black-and-white issue, and I think you have to be careful about exactly the things you're saying. Seeing in absolutes is basically the talent of fundamentalists, and this is what I mean by manipulation. The few fundamentalists who do see things in black and white are very adept at making the rest of us believe things in such terms too. Fundamentalist muslims want us to believe that they represent all muslims, and fundamentalist christians want us to believe that they represent all christians- so that we end up getting dragged into conflicts that aren't really ours. And you know, when we get dragged into it, we'll be locked inside of conflicts that are of a very large scale- only because so many of us fell for these traps. And I know that I don't have all the ideas down perfectly but I'm positive I'm on the right path, so that's why I get argumentative about it. So you can see why I use potentially inflammatory words like "tool" to describe how I see people who would, from my p.o.v, do exactly the kind of thing that helps put more kindling on this fire until it consumes everything.

xepherys

rainheart-

A lot of very good points... many of which I tend to agree with outright. I think that you may be overanalyzing some of the comments made by other posters, however. I don't see a streak of anti-Muslim sentiment that you seem to be concerned with.

On that note, however, I do see a potential trend of anti-Muslim sentiment coming out of Western cultures and non-Islam cultures soon, if current events continue to push forward. As I've stated before, the Muslims that I have known through my life have been moderate, accepting and decent human beings. However, the extremists in Islam tend to be more extreme than the extremists in other religious groups. Sadly, I can easily see this turning into an outright holy war. A jihad from Islam, a crusade from The Vatican. I mean, that's what this is turning into, right? A clash of ideals, based primarily on religious beliefs. If it turns out this way, it will not be a political war like WWI and WWII. If the Middle East and the West clash again, it WILL be a holy war. And people will be drawn to sides, even those without religious bearing in the war, because they will fear for their lives against an enemy they harbor no malice against. Over time, that can turn fear can turn into malice, and a fervor unlike a political war could present itself. This is, of course, a worst case scenario. But a war based on divides that have no political boundaries will be far more devastating that one that does. Look at Iraq alone. Our war there is not against the Iraqi people, or Muslims or Kurds or Arabs or any set of specific people. It's not our uniform against theirs. It's not a border dispute or a war to gain control of rights. It's a battle with no easy end, no defined win-lose situation. Move that to the global arena and it's chaotic.

This is what I fear... and it could happen quicker than a lot of people seem to expect.

PastorTim

A friend of mine, another preacher, recently sent these musings around. I think they have some merit for consideration, and share them here now for that purpose.

Blessings,
Pastor Tim

-------------------------

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ... but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

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And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ~ Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour

Mojo_PeiPei

Xeph what's with that "Crusade from the vatican" comment? Anything to back up such a blatantly false and insulting comment?

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.