Bill O'Rights

http://www.caffeineawareness.org/viewnews.php?id=21

Years ago, when smoker persecution started in earnest, I predicted that one day, after the smokers were effectively demonized, that coffee drinkers would be the next target. Well, guess what? Here we are. This is just the opening salvo in a new war.

I predict that, within 10 years;
1. Coffee will have been removed from the workplace.
2. Restaurants will be forced to provide soy substitutes.
3. The price of a can of coffee will hit the stratosphere, due to the taxes imposed to pay for the "War on Caffeine".
4. PSAs on the "evils" of coffee will abound.
5. Self serve coffee centers (think convenience store) will be abolished and placed behind counters (to protect the children).
Doubt me? Wait.

Of course, that's not even taking Mountain Dew into consideration.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

maleficent

/me faints....

/me channels Charlton Heston... From my cold dead hand you will take my coffee...

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Elphaba

Let the revolution begin...

Psycho Dad

Because if you take my coffee, I'm going to fucking hurt someone and my productivity will dive.

Can you imagine if BOR's predictions come true? Starbucks sending lobbyists to the hill along side the cigarette companies.

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

Charlatan

You mean the same way there is a war on alcohol?

The only reason the price of coffee will go up is when the cheap plantations finally destroy the soil they are over farming. The only ones left in business will be the fair trade sustainable farms.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

raeanna74

My jaw drops.

I cannot imagine the hit that the market would take if caffeine were to become a controlled substance. Caffeine is in everything and it would be impossible to wipe that out. Exedrine, weight control pills, chocolate, sodas, energy drinks, and a multitude of other food products.

Besides - if you try to take my coffee I WILL stab you with my fork or bite your hand. I've done it before. I will do it again.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

analog

They can have my Mountain Dew when they pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Zeraph

Muahaha my evil coffee plan is coming into fruitation, soon us non addicts will rule over you!

/evil laugh

I think this belongs in paranoia (because of your predictions, not the article).

Edit: But seriously, ya'll realize being addicted is not a good thing? And that you really should strive to be without it. Why would you intentionally want a weakness? I have no problem getting up in the morning, and I'm healthier for it.

Ustwo

You are on.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

maleficent

Put a few more miles on your body - and seeif you feel the same way...

Coffee is my reason for living. It's the reasonwhy I don't kill people on a regular basis. It steadies my nerves and makes me a bearable person...
Without it I'm just a bear...

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Elphaba

Will we be forced to drink our coffee 25 feet from any door, due to second hand odor?

Zeraph

You only say that because you've been addicted so long, I know older people who don't need coffee like that. My dad is 56 or 57, and he drinks it as rarely as me (for taste, decaf.)

roachboy

ain't puritanism grand?

the website appears to be a kind of vegan thing (note the products they are hawking as alternatives)....it seems like a hobbyhorse for the members of the site, nothing more, nothing less.

you would think that these folk would worry more about high-fructose corn syrup, transfats and other industrial food processing byproducts that are dumped on those who eat processed foods....but that would lead to consideration of how industrial food systems subordinate the nutritional needs to the public to profit...and this would perhaps not inspire the governor of nebraska and others to act--because caffiene usage is considered on the site only as caffiene dependence, the motivation appears to be simple puritanism: dependency is bad. capitalism is good.


i drink about 2-3 cups of coffee when i wake up and will maybe have another cup or two in the course of the day.
i know folk who do not drink coffee: that is nice for them. sometimes i think about these folk over a cup of joe. then i do something that interests me.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

guthmund

I ain't hurtin' nobody
I ain't hurtin' no one

Good for you and good for your dad....really. I happen to like coffee and the occasional smoke, so as long as I'm not hurting you, why the hell do you care?

I'm with roach; aren't there more important things for these people to worry about?

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No signature. None. Seriously.

Zeraph

Your choice, fine with me. I'm not saying we should ban coffee. But that doesn't answer my question.

guthmund

What question?

That addiction is bad?

Yes, addiction is bad, but it's my addiction. I would rather have the option of soliciting help to 'defeat' my addiction than have it involuntarily forced upon me.

Do you seriously think this is a good idea?

__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

Zeraph

My question: Why would you intentionally want a weakness?

"Do you seriously think this is a good idea?" My response: When did I say an involuntary execution of coffee was a good idea? And I thought "Your choice, fine with me. I'm not saying we should ban coffee." Would have made that clear.

Uh you are talking to me?

People sure get defensive when it comes to addiction

maleficent

It's not the addiction that I want - I happen to love the taste and aroma of coffee - Decaf has a completely different taste - -watered down and an bittery after taste... There's nothing like the smell of a fresh cuppa joe and the taste is even better...

There are also a few other threads around how coffee is actually good for you and improves short term memory - some of us need all the help I can get...

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roachboy

zeraph:
you could simply have posted "i do not like coffee so i do not drink it" and have been done with it.
in the end, there is nothing more to your argument.
so you dont drink caffiene.
good for you.
hooray.
excellent.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

I don't particularly care for coffee (don't like the taste), but this seems a bit premature. Yes, caffine is linked to some health risks, but so are most things we eat. McDonalds will be outlaws before StarBucks, if there is any reason in the world. If it were up to me, everything would be legal, and just let people monitor themselves. If something is addictive and you don't want to be addicted to it, don't do it in the first place.

Gatorade Frost

I drink Mountain Dew by the gallon, I have no problem with caffeine, and in fact I love it with all my hea rt.

But - I also support a caffeine awareness drive so that people learn about the potential effects of caffeine and can take from that an ability to make a knowledgable decision.

If you want to be a coffee-holic, good for you, I'm not stopping you, but just because you love caffeine doesn't mean a caffeine awareness drive should be stopped. People have a right to the knowledge, and it's for the better that people are learning about the potential adverse effects of heavy caffeine drinking.

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I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."
Emo Philips

ziadel

the first person to come and try to take my red bull from me is going to be shot.
repeatedly.
in the face.

no, I'm not kidding.



it's ridiculous how everything is trying to be legislated, I'm freaking tired of it, if you don't like it, dont drink it, if you have an employee who isn't getting the job done because he's banging off the walls from drinking 6 espressos, then get rid of him, if someones dying from whatever cancer from drinking caffeine, oh well, it's not your problem. get over it.

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Poloboy

Like someone already mentioned, caffeine is ubiquitous. It's in everything, from coffee to tea to chocolate bars to "energized" water. Second, banning a substance based on MINOR health risks by overconsumption is ludicrous. Obesity has worse health risks, should we ban food? Type 2 Diabetes costs the US and Canada many millions every year, should we ban...*gasp*...sugar? Wait, I know. The solution to prevalent hypertension: Ban salt. Better yet, set up a customs line and tax salt, East India Company style. Nothing like a good poll tax.

My point is that caffeine won't be banned, or taxed. It is a staple of Western society, whether you're a British tea-drinker or a Canadian coffee-drinker or a Belgian cocoa-drinker or an American Coke/Pepsi-drinker. I would also like to point out that while the health benefits of reducing caffeine intake from excessive to moderate are clear, there are equally clear links to the health benefits of mild to moderate caffeine intake.

• improved athletic performance by drawing on fat reserves for energy and increasing motor skills of conditioned reflexes
• enhancing pain-relieving effects of aspirin, acetaminophen, and opiates like codeine and morphine
• many headaches are caused by dilated blood vessels - caffeine is known to constrict these blood vessels and alleviate the pain
• non-coffee drinkers have two to three times greater incidence of Parkinson's disease
• coffee drinkers significantly reduce their risk of type 2 diabetes
• coffee, tea, and hot chocolate all have antioxidant properties shown to fight cancer, heart disease, and aging - the antioxidant effects are due to the caffeine in these drinks

I'm not an employee of Starbucks or Twinings - and I don't think caffeine is some kind of miracle drug. I think that kids drink way too much caffeine (in the form of pop like Coke). I also know that too much caffeine is dangerous. I just think that people should know both sides of the fence before they start campaigning for a particular side.

Zeraph

Finally, someone actually tries to answer my question. Thanks (and poloboy too). I was actually curious if anyone had a reason besides already being addicted to it. I was not arguing, at least not in the way some of you seem to think. Yeesh

This thread further's my hypothesis that people can become irrational when anything is mentioned about their addiction. I'm sure this will in some way be construed as an argument too.

Martian

This sort of attitude seriously bugs me. Granted, I get it more for smoking than I do for coffee, but all the same.

I've made the decision I've made for a reason. To be perfectly frank, so long as it doesn't affect you it's no business of yours what I do or why; my life is my own to fuck up as I see fit.

I don't try to make anyone partake of my vices. I do not force my decisions on anyone. I can respect that you don't enjoy the things I do. Is it so much to ask that I get the same in return? And what I mean is, don't just pay lip service to that respect, actually do it. That means you don't take that 'fuck up your life if you want' sort of attitude that I get so freaking often.

So long as I'm not blowing smoke in your face or pouring my coffee down your throat, why do you have to care?

Sorry for the rant, but things like that rub me the wrong way. Yes, I made my choice. Yes, I am fully aware of all the consequences and side effects. If you don't understand why I do what I do now, you're probably not going to.

And on the preview, I've decided to add this in in case you're interested. I have Crohn's Disease. This illness hit me without rhyme or reason and it seriously fucked up my life. It almost killed me and I have had several near-death experiences since. All of that drove home to me the frailty of life; therefore, I partake in a form of mild hedonism. I realize that what I'm doing is hazardous to my health. Living is hazardous to my health. There are more ways that I could die in any given day than I care to count; adding a couple more doesn't particularly concern me and I like the effects that my drugs of choice have on me.

If that makes sense to you, fine. If it doesn't, well.. just know that I made informed decisions and don't fucking look down your nose at me for them.

EDIT to avoid a dobule post.

Zeraph, the reason people seem to be irrational about their addictions is because (for me, at least) people who have these vices are often treated as if they don't know any better. It's belittling and it's irritating. After enough of that, you just get tired of it and when person X decides to raise what to you is a very tired old argument, you tend to get a bit aggravated.

I realize your question was meant to be rather innocent, but I'm going to leave the above ranting in place, because it explains my position quite aptly.

My reasoning is much more direct than maleficent's. I drink coffee because caffeine has a number of pleasant side effects. I'm aware of the pitfalls and have decided that the benefits are worth the risk. It's as simple as that.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Zeraph

2 things:
I "care" because I want the best for humanity.
and
I don't, and will never, respect weakness. I can understand you though, Martian, and it doesn't mean I don't respect you on the whole.

Thank you for explaining more.

Martian

I'm not asking you to 'respect weakness'. I'm asking you to respect an individual who is capable of making decisions that differ from your own, based on values that are different from yours. What you view as a weakness, I don't. You don't have to think drinking coffee is good or even acceptable, just acknowledge that an individual (particularly those here, who on the whole are the most intelligent group I've ever assoiciated with) is capable of making his own decisions with full foreknowledge of the consequences of his actions. Part of that is biting your tongue when you feel like making a disparaging remark about that person's vice of choice.

Everybody has some sort of weakness, as you seem to define it. It may not come in chemical form; many people waste hours every day in front of the television or computer, some people overeat, a great many drink to excess. There is no perfect being and frankly if there were I wouldn't want to know him; such a person in my opinion would be supremely uninteresting.

In that view, it's a bit like "Let he who is without sin..."

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

flstf

I don't think it's the addiction that gets defended so much but when others want to tax your cup of tea excessively that riles people up. At least that is what I think the original poster was saying.

cyrnel

Nebraska's governor be damned, it won't fly.

a) As mentioned, caffeine has too many positives, both health and productivity.
b) Compared to smoking, its negatives are minor and localized.
c) I won't allow it.

Anyway, Oxygen is linked to many more health problems than caffeine.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Charlatan

Two points:

1) Zeraph... you display the same characteristics I find in those who don't drink alcohol. I'm not talking about recovering addicts rather those who don't drink because they don't like to be "weak". What it comes down to, for me, is a massive character flaw. Being a control freak to that level is not a plus. I generally don't trust people like this because they don't trust themselves.

2) Martian (and others who are taking the position that it doesn't hurt anyone else) as you live in Canada and partake of the health system here, there a limit to the, "I'm not hurting anyone but myself" mantra. In a public healthcare system where we all share the cost of healthcare, where do we draw the line on people's unhealthy activities? Should the system, replace the liver of someone with sirrosis brought on by alcohol consumption? What about obese people needing knee replacement surgery due to overeating? What about lung cancer in smokers? Etc.

I am playing devils advocate here, so don't take me in the wrong way, but should this be taken into consideration?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

I can back this up as someone who doesn't drink alcohol. This is very much true. I don't drink because I am a mean drunk. I don't know how or why this is so, but it's a reality I simply live with. It doesn't make me any less of a pacifist, because I simply avoid putting myself in a situation where I lose my inhabitions.

grumpyolddude

I think that each individual has a unique tolerance for caffiene, and awareness of what the effects MAY be is a good thing. Personally, I have a rather high tolerance, with no apparent deliterious side effects.
Did you know that decaf raises levels of bad cholestoral?

__________________
"Regret can be a harder pill to swallow than failure .With failure you at least know you gave it a chance..." David Howard

Martian

Charlatan - an interesting point.

The general knee-jerk reaction seems to be that smokers don't deserve treatment for ill effects brought on by smoking. Some would carry this over to those who drink alcohol. But let's take the whole devil's advocate routine a step further...

You've brought up obesity. Often obesity is caused by a largely sedentery lifestyle, coupled with a poor diet. These people have the means to rectify their disorder, yet choose not to. This disorder causes myriad health issues. Should that obese person who doesn't get off the couch be treated for high blood pressure, high cholestorol, hypertension and heart disease brought on by their lifestyle?

Or how about those who develop diabetes from a diet with too much sugar in it? Do these people deserve treatment?

AIDs is easily preventable, using screening and proper protection, coupled with abstinence where those two aren't available. Does an AIDs patient deserve treatment?

How about the thousands of people who cause themselves injury daily doing stupid things? Injuries that are easily preventable if these people stop and think? One could argue that every carpenter who steps on a nail and has to get a tetanus shot, every butcher who slices his thumb and needs stitches, every warehouse worker with back injuries due to improper lifting techniques and even amateur athletes who pull muscles and tear ligaments due to improper warm-up routines are a burden on the health care system. Why should I be made to pay for the stupidity of these people?

Smoking is a choice I've made. There are those who would argue that it isn't a very wise one. I have my reasons for doing so, as have been stated. Given that I'm a relatively light smoker and I'm likely to quit before I turn thirty, my odds of having any long-term ill effects are minimal. Am I any less deserving of treatment than any of the above?

Smoking is often demonized and I've heard the argument you make before. The reality is, there are a great many conditions and injuries that are easily preventable and/or are a direct result of a person's lifestyle choices. The greater possibility of lung cancer due to smoking is just one. Can you really say that smokers are less deserving of treatment than any of the above? I reckon if we're going to persecute one group for making a lifestyle choice that they're well within their rights to make, we would have to do the same to all of them, no?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

SecretMethod70

Honestly, caffeine addiction is something that should be addressed, particularly in the form of coffee....BUT, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Unlike smoking, there are too many people who are addicted to coffee and/or other forms of caffeine to allow anything like that to happen. Plus, caffeine is not quite as unhealthy as smoking

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Grasshopper Green

I have really cut back my consumption of caffeine in the past 6 months, mostly due to the fact that I was having great difficulty sleeping at night, and eliminating caffeine after about noon has really helped. That said, I don't see a problem with caffeine for the most part. There are plenty of other legal foods out there that are just as bad, if not worse for you. Do you like potato chips? Full of fat and salt. Cookies? High fructose corn syrup and trans fats. The key is moderation; just like alcohol, which is "bad" for you, some tea or coffee is actually good for you. Should everything that is bad for you be illegal?

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"They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

Formerly Medusa

raeanna74

Here ya go - for all those coffee lovers who refuse to loose their daily cup of hot coffee.

I found some information at webMD with regards to BENEFITS of coffee.

Early studies show that coffee can help prevent
Diabetes or insulin resistance
Parkinsons
Colon cancer

Also it can "help manage asthma and even control attacks when medication is unavailable, stop a headache, boost mood, and even prevent cavities."

I sure won't go down with my coffee without a fight even if they COULD control coffee/caffeine use.

__________________
"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

filtherton

I don't think that there is any category in which the governor of nebraska would qualify as a trendsetter.

In terms of comparisons to smoking, i don't force anyone who happens to be around me to drink coffee when i drink it. There's no such thing as secondhand coffee consumption. Unless you're into roman showers.

Meditrina

/me crosses Nebraska off the list of places to live in

As a mother of 2 young children, I have many sleep deprived nights. Would it be better to fall asleep while driving to work in the morning, possibly hurting innocent people and myself or to have a few cups of coffee to stay awake? I argue this with my dad alot. I tend to think it better I drink coffee, only hurting myself (maybe), rather than endangering others.

__________________
"Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

Zeraph

I consider addiction a weakness, not simply drinking coffee or alchohol. So how am I like those people, and what characteristics are you seeing? Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

Are you really trying to tell me, being an addict is not a weakness? Would you list it as your strength in a job application? And is it just legal stuff that's ok? What about heroin?

An addict looses controll over his or her actions, or suffers nasty withdrawl, if being a controll freak means I'm not a slave to substance, then controll freak me up.

Perhaps our difference is in our experience. There's something about seeing OD'd heroin addicts, and dead gang members (over drugs/power), when I was a kid that makes me wary of what I consume. Even if it is legal and isn't as bad as some other stuff.

cyrnel

Zeraph, have any hobbies? Any passions? Anything you have to tear yourself away from?

At what point does anything become an addiction, and when do the problems outweigh the benefits?

I don't drink the coffee I did in my 20's. I can't drink after 7pm if I want to get to sleep, while back then I lemented the Stanford area coffee shops closing at 11pm. Then again, I haven't slept on a cubicle floor in 15years which could itself be called recovery.

Everything in moderation.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195