Yeah, seretogis is really reliable for the "ironic troll post" contributions. He's clever in the british sense. Apparently he never tires of having that fact pointed out for him.
Quote:
Originally posted by Endymon32
You are deluded if you think that the world is not a safer place. Saddam, a documented supporter of terrorism and invader, as well as mass murderer is gone. The man who controled the third largest oil reserves and all the power that comes with it is not in power.
Libya is playing ball, but its too early to see if they are for real. Iran is talking and looks to be willing to allow unannounced inspections. That leaves Syria and Pakistan to deal with.
Ask anyone, Bush said this was a long deal, and so far its paying off.
The world is safer. When fighting terrorsits, you take out the suppling nations. What is left is underfunded, undersupplied, un organised cells. This is Bush's plan and its an amazing success so far.
You are right, America is in it for America. Thats undenialble. And its in America's best interests to have the Middle East as stable, peace loving and democratic as possible. To sit there and think that taking out Saddam did nothing for America, and world peace is ignorant.
Untill Uzbek invades a neighbor, or sponcers terrorism, the United States will do nothing, as there is no threat to us, or to the region.
As long as Uzbek stays were it is geographically, it will be in the greater interest to deal with them as to make OUR job easier.
Like it or not, any president with a commitment to make the world safer will have to treat Uzbek this way, thats the sorry state of politics.
Same thing with Turkey, a nation that didnt treat the Kurds very well. They have something we need, we deal with them. Do I agree that it stinks? Hell yes. But to do nothing since we cant not do it all stinks even more.
Lets look at it this way. Should we not clean up our back yard if we can not clean the whole neighborhood? Can I not walk through my neighboor's dirty yard if it makes my cleaning job easier?
Does paying my neighboor for the use of his yard, to make my job easier, even though his yard is still dirty make my cleaning job less valid?
My yard is still clean at the end of the day, and there is one less yard that needs cleaning. Then we can move on to the next yard.
So you are saying that we should not clean any yard or clean them all at once. The first is unacceptable, the second is impossible. The realistic answer, do what we can now.
Sorry you think creating a hopefilled, stable, safe democratic nation is such a shitty thing.
Let me ask you since you care, do you toss out food when someone in the world is starving? Does that make you a hypocrite? Of course not.
America is dealing with the rouge nations, a job other well off nations are ignoring. We are dealing with Libya, Iran, Iraq, Afganishtan, and N Korea. And we are sucseeding. You can take no joy or happiness in this cause one nation is not being forced to comply. Thats pretty crumby. I tend to be glad that a difference is being made, bit by bit, by a President that has the balls to stand up and do something while others scorn and laugh while doing nothing about anything. Is he solving all the worlds problems? Nope, not even close. Not even Superman could do that. Is he making the world safer? Ask the Iraqis, ask the majority of Americans, ask anyone but Howard Dean and his shrinking minority of supporters. Hell even the other democratic canidates think Dean was wrong about this one.
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I agree with you on most of these points. I know that the world is a fucked up, unfair place, and i doubt it will ever be different from that. I think we are arguing about two different things. You argue that the us does what it thinks it has to do to assure its place and power in the world, and generally to pretect its citizens.
America does what its leaders think it has to do.
My main point is that in packaging this war, and many wars, for public consumption a picture is painted depicting the u.s. as some sort of big brother to the world whose only concern is the safety and well being of all the world's people. That is pure deception.
The hour grows late for this thread, though so i will leave it at that.