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Old 12-08-2003, 10:41 AM   #114 (permalink)
Giltwist
Insane
 
Location: Pennsylvania
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Movement is created though forces. Therefore the first motion can be set by the first force and god is not necessary.
From whence came the first force?

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Why can nothing be caused by itself? If it can be assumed that god was caused by itself then why cant anything else do the same? Also the universe is unified. It follows not chains of cause but rather everything interacts to create one cause.
In the universe, scientists have made it patently clear that there is no such thing as spontaneous generation. The difference here is subtle, a deity, by definition, is not bound to such things as they are not limited to physicality.

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The fact that qualities can be infinite is an assumption in itself. Beauty for example can have limits on any particular object. Just as perfection; for example a circle cannot be any more perfect then it already is. Also if there was such a thing as an ultimate quality then it is not necessary that it resides in one being, or any being at all. It is quite possible that the potential is held within the universe itself.
Sticking to your circle example, mathematically speaking, there is a more perfect circle than a circle, its a sphere. There is a more perfect sphere than a sphere, its a hypersphere, and so forth. In a logical frame of reference, qualities are infinite.

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Lets say that there is a one in infinity chance of everything falling into place just right so that the world we have around us exists. While the odds may seem very slim, it can happen and obviously it did happen. One might say that this is more extreme then the concept of god. I would argue that, because god does not explain existence. For what intelligent designer created god, and the god that created that god and so on? If god in all his complexity and infinity always was and always will be, then the universe can always be in the same fashion without the existence of god. Omitting god from the universe simplifies the model.
Again, refer to the unmoved mover, you are requiring that the deity be limited to our plane of existence. Also, were the universe infinitely old, since there IS a slim chance of a deity existing, he would HAVE to exist. And if the universe isn't infinitely old it has to come from somewhere.

Peace be with you,
G.
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