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crumbbum · 06-18-2003, 11:06 AM

Zi·on·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (z-nzm)
n.
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

I think it's safe to assume that all Israelis would be considered Zionists- I assume they support the country they live in.

Also, with regard to Iraq- there was a great deal of protest against the Iraq war in this country. Almost half of Americans were against the war. Now, the number of Israelis who support the positions of the sites you've linked to is miniscule, less than 5%. Did the fact that so many Americans protested the war make it wrong? One had to examine the facts about the war, and about Saddam's regime before one could be sure that it was the right thing or not. The rightness of a position can only be derived by analyzing the position itself, and the question it intends to answer (in this case, how can there be peace in the Middle east without a second Holocaust?). In Nazi Germany the overwhelming majority of Germans LOVED Hitler, you should see the footage of the women crying at the parades and whatnot. Does this make Nazism correct? Of course not. Only a fool bases their position on important issues on public opinion- independent thought is necessary if a person is serious about right and wrong, and about truth in any matter. Independent thought means intellectual honesty and openness, and concern for the truth even if it is uncomfortable. You have repeatedly attacked the legitimacy of my position on this, which I came to after years of investigation. You have not considered the information I have presented. That is why if you continue to refuse to do so, and to answer the questions I raised previously, your position is invalid. If you think that the anti-Zionist Jews are right, if this is what YOU think, then back it up yourself! Articulate your own position! Answer my questions, if you can!

In the end, Sun-Tzu, I have a lot more sympathy for the thousands of innocent people that have been brutally murdered by PLO terrorists over the years (not just Jews) than for people who have to wait in line to cross to their jobs in Israel, or people who have curfews, etc. None of those things would exist if that murder had ever stopped- this endless wave of bloodlust has existed since long before Israel became a state. It existed before the settlements, it existed before the West bank of the Jordan and the Gaza Strip ever came under Israeli control. It existed before the State of Israel was declared. Jews have been being brutally murdered in that region simply for the "crime" of being alive and living there ever since they began to arrive, fleeing over a thousand years of murders, pogroms, expulsions, hatred, discrimination, persecution, and eventually a Holocaust that killed 6 million of the smallest minority in the world (1/3 of all Jews in the world were murdered). You simply don't understand the reality of this conflict.

Golda Meir once said that "There will be peace when that Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews", and she was right. Peace could have been there from the beginning, and it could still happen tomorrow if only the Arab world could accept the right of Jews to live. I hope you realize that you are making excuses and defending people who would gleefully kill every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel if they had the power. Did you know that Mein Kampf is a bestseller in the Arab world, and in the Palestinian territories? Are you surprised? By advocating more concessions from Israel, you are advocating giving the Arabs greater ability to kill Jews. That is the only reason they want the land. It is NOT a holy land to them. The only site of significance to them is the Mosque on the Temple Mount- which is protected and guarded under Israeli law, and which is open to pilgrimmages from Muslims the world over. Even the most bitter enemies of Israel are allowed to enter and worship freely. There is no excuse for murder Sun-Tzu, and I really think that if you have learned anything about history, you should know better.

It is also ironic that the Israeli far left has gotten a monopoly on the word "peace". All the sites you have linked to- the "center for middle east peace", "Peace now", etc.- it reminds me of a pretty famous statement by Neville Chamberlain after ceding Czechoslovakia to Hitler in an attempt to appease him. "I have just bought peace in our time", I believe is what he said (maybe not exact, "peace in our time" is the part I am sure about). He was wrong- it only emboldened Hitler to continue his aggression and started WW2. Don't think that the far left has any monopoly on peace. All of the Israeli political parties want peace- they just disagree about the best way to achieve it. They are, after all, dealing with a fanatical, homicidal enemy bent on their destruction (though many have a hard time understand such hatred, and think that it can be appeased by uprooting settlements and whatnot). "They must not understand that we REALLY want peace". It isn't a question of understanding. It is a question of intent.

06-18-2003, 11:06 AM	#78 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Zi·on·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (z-nzm) n. A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel. I think it's safe to assume that all Israelis would be considered Zionists- I assume they support the country they live in. Also, with regard to Iraq- there was a great deal of protest against the Iraq war in this country. Almost half of Americans were against the war. Now, the number of Israelis who support the positions of the sites you've linked to is miniscule, less than 5%. Did the fact that so many Americans protested the war make it wrong? One had to examine the facts about the war, and about Saddam's regime before one could be sure that it was the right thing or not. The rightness of a position can only be derived by analyzing the position itself, and the question it intends to answer (in this case, how can there be peace in the Middle east without a second Holocaust?). In Nazi Germany the overwhelming majority of Germans LOVED Hitler, you should see the footage of the women crying at the parades and whatnot. Does this make Nazism correct? Of course not. Only a fool bases their position on important issues on public opinion- independent thought is necessary if a person is serious about right and wrong, and about truth in any matter. Independent thought means intellectual honesty and openness, and concern for the truth even if it is uncomfortable. You have repeatedly attacked the legitimacy of my position on this, which I came to after years of investigation. You have not considered the information I have presented. That is why if you continue to refuse to do so, and to answer the questions I raised previously, your position is invalid. If you think that the anti-Zionist Jews are right, if this is what YOU think, then back it up yourself! Articulate your own position! Answer my questions, if you can! In the end, Sun-Tzu, I have a lot more sympathy for the thousands of innocent people that have been brutally murdered by PLO terrorists over the years (not just Jews) than for people who have to wait in line to cross to their jobs in Israel, or people who have curfews, etc. None of those things would exist if that murder had ever stopped- this endless wave of bloodlust has existed since long before Israel became a state. It existed before the settlements, it existed before the West bank of the Jordan and the Gaza Strip ever came under Israeli control. It existed before the State of Israel was declared. Jews have been being brutally murdered in that region simply for the "crime" of being alive and living there ever since they began to arrive, fleeing over a thousand years of murders, pogroms, expulsions, hatred, discrimination, persecution, and eventually a Holocaust that killed 6 million of the smallest minority in the world (1/3 of all Jews in the world were murdered). You simply don't understand the reality of this conflict. Golda Meir once said that "There will be peace when that Arabs love their children more than they hate the Jews", and she was right. Peace could have been there from the beginning, and it could still happen tomorrow if only the Arab world could accept the right of Jews to live. I hope you realize that you are making excuses and defending people who would gleefully kill every Jewish man, woman, and child in Israel if they had the power. Did you know that Mein Kampf is a bestseller in the Arab world, and in the Palestinian territories? Are you surprised? By advocating more concessions from Israel, you are advocating giving the Arabs greater ability to kill Jews. That is the only reason they want the land. It is NOT a holy land to them. The only site of significance to them is the Mosque on the Temple Mount- which is protected and guarded under Israeli law, and which is open to pilgrimmages from Muslims the world over. Even the most bitter enemies of Israel are allowed to enter and worship freely. There is no excuse for murder Sun-Tzu, and I really think that if you have learned anything about history, you should know better. It is also ironic that the Israeli far left has gotten a monopoly on the word "peace". All the sites you have linked to- the "center for middle east peace", "Peace now", etc.- it reminds me of a pretty famous statement by Neville Chamberlain after ceding Czechoslovakia to Hitler in an attempt to appease him. "I have just bought peace in our time", I believe is what he said (maybe not exact, "peace in our time" is the part I am sure about). He was wrong- it only emboldened Hitler to continue his aggression and started WW2. Don't think that the far left has any monopoly on peace. All of the Israeli political parties want peace- they just disagree about the best way to achieve it. They are, after all, dealing with a fanatical, homicidal enemy bent on their destruction (though many have a hard time understand such hatred, and think that it can be appeased by uprooting settlements and whatnot). "They must not understand that we REALLY want peace". It isn't a question of understanding. It is a question of intent. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.