Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post

crumbbum · 06-16-2003, 07:16 AM

I looked at the website, and from the links I saw on the main page it apparently blames Israel for the fact that Palestinian terrorists kill it's civilians. Posting these things isn't constructive, since it IS a fringe viewpoint- not only doesn't it speak for the vast majority of Israelis, but it's understanding of the conflict is not shared by the US, any of our congressman, or basically anyone who knows what they are talking about either.

About aid to Israel- Israel getting a lot of aid has nothing to do with corruption in the Palestinian authority. They are separate issues, so don't dodge the first. Why does Israel get so much aid? One, they are constantly under terrorist attack, which devastates the economy. Two, many of Israel's neighbors and enemies have billions in oil money. The US, wanting Israel to exist since we derive great benefit from this, gives the aid to keep Israel strong, to keep a balance. It is also for the same reason that the US has turned Egypt into a military juggernaut, second only in the region to Israel. Who else would they attack? This is standard foreign policy- you make a conflict balanced, with both sides dependent on you, then you have maximum influence. This is standard poitical theory.

Also, Israel is the west's front line against terrorism. Israel absorbs all of what would be directed at us if it didn't exist. On top of that, Israel supplies the US with valuable intelligence info, military upgrades, and a lot of economic cooperation. It also gives the US a lot more leverage when dealing with the arab states. Also, the aid is not just forked over- most of it is in loan guarantees. Israel has never defaulted on a loan to the US. There is a big difference between loans and "free money". When it comes to just pure aid, it is just military aid that the US gives, for the reasons stated above. Anyway, this has nothing to do with this thread.

As far as my agreeing with Popo's statement, my point was that if the Palestinians seriously wanted peace, as opposed to the Phased plan that he mentioned, and it was actually feasible for a Palestinian state to exist next to Israel in peace, and if that would truly solve the conflict, then I'd be for it. The fact is that it won't though. Again, there will never be peace until both sides want it. Based on history and recent events, I don't think the Palestinians collectively will seek peace until all dreams of destroying Israel have been extinguished, and until those who foment rejectionism and hatred have been unequivocally defeated. There won't be peace, no matter what the plan, when "collaborators with Israel" are publicly lynched and their bodies hung on lampposts in Bethlehem square. No peace plan will work, since they assume certain premises that must be true for it to succeed. The primary premise is that both sides want peace, to co-exist. Seeing as Israel initiated the Oslo accords a long time ago, and even Sharon has publicly stated that it is not desirable for Israel to maintain military control over the Palestinians.

I don't think it is Israel that has a problem coexisting with Palestinians. I think they have a problem coexisting with the murder of their civilians, and with a palestinian government that sows hatred and is bent on Israel's destruction. The Palestinians were granted autonomy in 1993-4 and it only led to more terror since than in all the years proceeding. I can only imagine what a state, with full rights and independence, would bring while the current reality still exists. Nuclear war comes to mind.

06-16-2003, 07:16 AM	#60 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	I looked at the website, and from the links I saw on the main page it apparently blames Israel for the fact that Palestinian terrorists kill it's civilians. Posting these things isn't constructive, since it IS a fringe viewpoint- not only doesn't it speak for the vast majority of Israelis, but it's understanding of the conflict is not shared by the US, any of our congressman, or basically anyone who knows what they are talking about either. About aid to Israel- Israel getting a lot of aid has nothing to do with corruption in the Palestinian authority. They are separate issues, so don't dodge the first. Why does Israel get so much aid? One, they are constantly under terrorist attack, which devastates the economy. Two, many of Israel's neighbors and enemies have billions in oil money. The US, wanting Israel to exist since we derive great benefit from this, gives the aid to keep Israel strong, to keep a balance. It is also for the same reason that the US has turned Egypt into a military juggernaut, second only in the region to Israel. Who else would they attack? This is standard foreign policy- you make a conflict balanced, with both sides dependent on you, then you have maximum influence. This is standard poitical theory. Also, Israel is the west's front line against terrorism. Israel absorbs all of what would be directed at us if it didn't exist. On top of that, Israel supplies the US with valuable intelligence info, military upgrades, and a lot of economic cooperation. It also gives the US a lot more leverage when dealing with the arab states. Also, the aid is not just forked over- most of it is in loan guarantees. Israel has never defaulted on a loan to the US. There is a big difference between loans and "free money". When it comes to just pure aid, it is just military aid that the US gives, for the reasons stated above. Anyway, this has nothing to do with this thread. As far as my agreeing with Popo's statement, my point was that if the Palestinians seriously wanted peace, as opposed to the Phased plan that he mentioned, and it was actually feasible for a Palestinian state to exist next to Israel in peace, and if that would truly solve the conflict, then I'd be for it. The fact is that it won't though. Again, there will never be peace until both sides want it. Based on history and recent events, I don't think the Palestinians collectively will seek peace until all dreams of destroying Israel have been extinguished, and until those who foment rejectionism and hatred have been unequivocally defeated. There won't be peace, no matter what the plan, when "collaborators with Israel" are publicly lynched and their bodies hung on lampposts in Bethlehem square. No peace plan will work, since they assume certain premises that must be true for it to succeed. The primary premise is that both sides want peace, to co-exist. Seeing as Israel initiated the Oslo accords a long time ago, and even Sharon has publicly stated that it is not desirable for Israel to maintain military control over the Palestinians. I don't think it is Israel that has a problem coexisting with Palestinians. I think they have a problem coexisting with the murder of their civilians, and with a palestinian government that sows hatred and is bent on Israel's destruction. The Palestinians were granted autonomy in 1993-4 and it only led to more terror since than in all the years proceeding. I can only imagine what a state, with full rights and independence, would bring while the current reality still exists. Nuclear war comes to mind. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.