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roachboy · 01-10-2009, 02:26 PM

gee, powerclown...what you're basically arguing is that to be arab is to be fascist.
nice. but it kinda makes you wonder how, for example, the moroccan sephardic community managed to survive from around 1492, when they were exiled from pain, until 1947.
it must have been an oversight.

or maybe your story is so riddled with holes to the point of being more or less meaningless as a history.

if one grants that the factoids you base it on are correct, it is still the case that your story explains nothing--at all---about the action in gaza. what it does do is provide a justification for it that has the convenient side effect of enabling you to sidestep everything about the actual empirical reality of the past 2 years.

but maybe that's the point.

your narrative is a demonstration of why i lost patience with trying to frame israeli actions in gaza in terms of a history that goes back to 1947 and the, with increasing arbitrariness in your particular case, beyond that.

by no rational standard is post -67 israel the same as pre-67 israel in terms of military capabilities, in terms of actions, even in terms of the ethico-historical arguments that you run out above. post-67 israel is a military superpower. post-67 israel has indulged the occupation. post-67 israel has undermined it's own connection to it's past as beleagured.

the problems with thinking about israeli military and/or colonial actions since 1967 based on your narrative are obvious--you don't and you can't.
instead, you erase it.
all of it.

=======================================

slims---i've said this repeatedly, but again the main fuck-up i attribute to the bush administration is their participation in and support of the decision regarding the jan 06 elections. both are simple matters of record. there's no debate about them. we can discuss the question of whether this was in fact as catastrophically bad a decision as i think it was---and i would argue that the situation that is happening now demonstrates just what a bad idea it was---but if we do, at least we'll be on the same page.

supporting an ally does not preclude making horrible choices.
rigid, unthinking support is characterized by the inability to recognize horrible choices and allowing yourself, and your ally, to be boxed in by those horrible choices.

that is a Problem. that is a Problem visited upon the civilian population because of the bush people. and i think that this Problem is more determing of the fiasco in gaza than are the actions of hamas---and this without in any way saying that hamas plays no role. they do, they have. this is self-evident.

=======
baraka--thanks for that information. it's really interesting.

01-10-2009, 02:26 PM	#157 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	gee, powerclown...what you're basically arguing is that to be arab is to be fascist. nice. but it kinda makes you wonder how, for example, the moroccan sephardic community managed to survive from around 1492, when they were exiled from pain, until 1947. it must have been an oversight. or maybe your story is so riddled with holes to the point of being more or less meaningless as a history. if one grants that the factoids you base it on are correct, it is still the case that your story explains nothing--at all---about the action in gaza. what it does do is provide a justification for it that has the convenient side effect of enabling you to sidestep everything about the actual empirical reality of the past 2 years. but maybe that's the point. your narrative is a demonstration of why i lost patience with trying to frame israeli actions in gaza in terms of a history that goes back to 1947 and the, with increasing arbitrariness in your particular case, beyond that. by no rational standard is post -67 israel the same as pre-67 israel in terms of military capabilities, in terms of actions, even in terms of the ethico-historical arguments that you run out above. post-67 israel is a military superpower. post-67 israel has indulged the occupation. post-67 israel has undermined it's own connection to it's past as beleagured. the problems with thinking about israeli military and/or colonial actions since 1967 based on your narrative are obvious--you don't and you can't. instead, you erase it. all of it. ======================================= slims---i've said this repeatedly, but again the main fuck-up i attribute to the bush administration is their participation in and support of the decision regarding the jan 06 elections. both are simple matters of record. there's no debate about them. we can discuss the question of whether this was in fact as catastrophically bad a decision as i think it was---and i would argue that the situation that is happening now demonstrates just what a bad idea it was---but if we do, at least we'll be on the same page. supporting an ally does not preclude making horrible choices. rigid, unthinking support is characterized by the inability to recognize horrible choices and allowing yourself, and your ally, to be boxed in by those horrible choices. that is a Problem. that is a Problem visited upon the civilian population because of the bush people. and i think that this Problem is more determing of the fiasco in gaza than are the actions of hamas---and this without in any way saying that hamas plays no role. they do, they have. this is self-evident. ======= baraka--thanks for that information. it's really interesting. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 01-10-2009 at 02:29 PM..