Slims

Roachboy, I just got finished riding my motorcycle and my hands are a bit frozen, but I will try to respond.

First, I read the background article you posted, and I found it very informative. However, while I understand the situation is very complex, it is natural to try and boil it down to it's 'essence' in order to have any form of manageable debate about it.

I don't see how the article really helps your position. It seems like it would when you start reading it, but then you get into the part about Galad Shalit...The Israeli hostage that Hamas (the government of Gaza) is holding. Egypt has said that they will not reopen the border crossing until/unless Hamas agrees to release a hostage. Since Hamas refuses to release him, the border has remained closed. I understand the issue is far more complicated, but Egypt made the offer and Hamas refused it; preferring instead to put their people at tremendous hardship so they won't have to return an Israeli who was kidnapped IN ISRAEL.

I found the last paragraph to be particularly interesting:

"Looking ahead, Israeli-Egyptian tensions over border security are likely to
continue. One day after the border breach, Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan
Vilnai stated that “We need to understand that when Gaza is open to the other side
we lose responsibility for it.... So we want to disconnect from it.” Hamas itself has
expressed a desire to see the border reopened and managed by the Palestinian
Authority. Ironically, both of these positions pose challenges for Egypt, which wants
to keep Hamas isolated, but not be held solely responsible for failing to do so by
either Israel or the United States. Nevertheless, as violence between Israel and Hamas
and other Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip continues, these issues will continue
to fester. With Hamas showing no indication that it is ready to renounce its stated
goal of Israel’s destruction, all parties would appear to be a long way from seeing the
Gaza-Egypt-Israeli region at peace."

Even the article you have posted indicates that Hamas is in no way willing to stop trying to destroy Israel. How can Israel be expected to negotiate with an enemy who continues to promise Israel's destruction at all costs?

How can that conversation possibly go?
Israel: "Ok, we are willing to give you complete autonomy and self-rule, etc. etc. Just please stop trying to destroy us"
Hamas: "We accept your offer, except for the part about not killing you"
Israel: "Done!"

It's silly to think negotiations are possible when one side has committed to such an absolute. When Hamas is willing to allow Israel to exist, then negotiations will be possible, not before.


Which brings me to another point: What country tolerates it's people being held hostage? If the Government of Mexico openly held American hostages as leverage, I would support a full blown invasion to get the hostages back (if possible) and topple the government that held them. The fact that Israel has handled the situation involving Galad Shalit the way they have is testament to their honest desire to not just lay waste to the Palestinians in order to regain control of the region.

The Israeli concerns about smuggling across the Gaza-Egypt border appear to be founded...Hamas has been shooting an awful lot of rockets recently.

Additionally, the concern about tunnels is also founded, Egypt reported in that article to have found more than 100 tunnels along their 8 mile shared border last year. Many of the munitions Israel has been dropping are low-yield bunker busters intended to destroy tunnels. They are heavy, with very little explosives so they penetrate and then collapse tunnels while minimizing civilian casulties.


Your second article is also a good one. I did mention that Egypt kept their border crossing "mostly closed" because I had read a similar article detailing a very limited re-opening for casualty evacuation and humanitarian assistance.

It also mentions how Israel is conducting it's attacks:
"The first wave of air strikes was launched by 60 warplanes, which hit a total of 50 targets in one fell swoop. The IAF deployed approximately 100 bombs, with an estimated 95 percent reaching their intended targets. Most of the casualties were Hamas operatives"

Seems like Israel isn't wantonly killing innocent civilians after all.

And:
"Immediately following the first wave, some 20 IAF aircraft struck 50 Palestinian rocket launchers in an effort to minimize Hamas' retaliatory strikes. "

Also good 'kills' in my opinion.

Your second article is from an Israeli news service, I think. Are you sure you meant to build your case with it?

I can read English well and Arabic passably, but not French. So I have no idea what your third article says.

-----Added 29/12/2008 at 05 : 43 : 40-----
Oh, and please lay off on the Ad Hominem attacks.

Roachboy, I like to discuss issues with you, and I seem to be the chief dissenter from your point of view in this thread so I have to assume that some of your statements are aimed at me.

Such as this one, immediately following one of my posts: "american conservatives are delusional both in general (look around you) and in particular when it comes to politics involving israel"

and this one after I mentioned the Egypt-Gaza border for the first time in this thread: "nothing is as simple as american conservatives would prefer to imagine. not even the egypt-gaza border."

I don't mind shrugging off a bunch of things, but I feel you are consistently marginalizing my posts simply because you disagree with them. I don't know whether it is intentional or not, but that's how it's coming across to me.

I am not oversimplifying the issue. I understand it to be enormously complicated, but in order to discuss it in any sort of meaningful way it becomes necessary to focus on one thing at a time. If we each tried to post comprehensive arguments covering the Israeli-Gaza issue, they would be far too large for anyone to read.

Furthermore, I am not part of the 'American Right' as you put it, and my politics are far more flexible than you seem to give me credit. I enter into these discussions in order to test and refine my own point of view, rather than out of a serious attempt to change the opinions of others.

I don't think the Bush administration has handled foreign policy well in general, but I am not about to automatically dismiss everything they have done as being wrong. Nor do I really think Israel's current strategy is optimal for Israel, but I do believe it is better than doing nothing except continuing to eat rockets on a daily basis. Were I in a position of power, I would push hard to force Hamas and Israel to some form of stability from which, over time, negotiations could begin and a lasting truce could be reached.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence