Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
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let's not play the game of pretending that this conflict is written in stone. it isn't. the starting point is not text 2000 years old nor is it texts that are 800 years old--this conflict dates from 1967. it dates from the start of the israeli occupation of the west bank and gaza. unless we agree on this, we aren't talking about the same thing.
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let me say it another way: american conservatives are delusional both in general (look around you) and in particular when it comes to politics involving israel. the policies of the bush administration with respect to gaza are evidence of this. the result of them is that alot of people end up dead for nothing.
there is not question but that israel is laying siege to gaza, and has for 18 months. read some actual information about what reality looks like and take the trouble to interpret it. if you rely on american conservative talking points, you'll never know anything. read through the material i linked to from electronic intifada above. you might not like it, but much of it is reality, deal with it, then we'll talk.
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rb....you and I have major differences on this one, and you know I am not a conservative.
You suggest the Gaza problem started in 67. I would agree that the current Palestinian problem was exacerbated at that date. But what caused it? I would suggest it was the combined attacks against Israel by Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
The starting point was 1947 with the partition of Palestine. The Israelis accepted the partition, the Palestinians and the neighboring Arab nations did not and declared their intent to remove every drop of Jewish blood from the Middle East and drive Israel into the sea.
Every conflict since then, including the 6-day war in 1967, was initiated by the Arab nations, in massive numbers against a nation surrounded by its enemies. Over time, Egypt and then Jordan, recognized the senselessness of further aggression and made peace with Israel.
As late as the 90s, the Israelis and Palestinians had negotiated a two state solution, with Israel trading land for peace....only to have it fail at the last minute at the hands of Arrafat.
And yet, Israel continued to make concessions. In 2003, in a further attempt at peace, Israel
unilaterally dismantled all of its settlements in Gaza and withdrew, giving Gaza political autonomy and a pledge to continue peace talks.
The response....the election of Hamas on a counter pledge to continue its aggression against Israel.
The current situation in Gaza is as much a conflict between Hamas and Fatah as it is between Palestinians and Israel.
Hamas' priority is not governing in Gaza, but maintaining the instability to secure its position by blaming it on Israel.
The Israeli siege was a response to the continuous firing of rockets into Israel for the last 5 years. An over-reaction? perhaps. What would you suggest they have done to stop the rocket attacks against Israeli civilian populations?
The solution is in the hands of the Palestinians......put peace above terrorism and they will find a willing partner in Israel.
Until such time, I support Israel's right to defend itself.
Where we do agree is on the failed Bush policy and its refusal to negotiate with Hamas.
I am hopeful that Obama will pursue a policy that will bring all parties, inlcuding Hamas, to the table and perhaps the peace deal that Clinton brokered may finally be achieved.
But make no mistake about it, it will require Hamas recognition of the right of Israel to exist, or short of that, the Palestinian people turning their backs on Hamas and electing a government that makes peace its number one priority.
-----Added 28/12/2008 at 01 : 00 : 45-----
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dunedan
Typical communist. You hard-left gasbags wonder why nobody trusts you? You wonder why everybody's buying every gun they can get their hands on? THIS IT WHY, ASSHOLE! YOUR SMUG, SELF-SATISFIED WILLINGNESS TO USE FORCE AGAINST PEOPLE WHO DON'T AGREE WITH YOU SCARES PEOPLE! YOUR CULTURALLY-IMPERIALISTIC BULLSHIT REEKS TO HEAVEN! AND YOUR HYPOCRISY IS TOO APALLING FOR WORDS!
Left-wingers, champions of free speech my stinkin' asshole.
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Totally uncalled for. If I was a mod, I would have booted your ass for this personal attack.