Quote:
|
Originally Posted by archetypal fool
jorgelito, where do you live? I'll admit that I live in Florida and my story revolves around the local people. Every immigrant I know here knows or is actively studying English, except for my father. I really don't know what the case is like in the west. I assumed it was similar to here, but that was just speculation on my part.
|
I live in LA. It is completely different from the East coast. Besides, the so-called "Hispanic" demographic is a disparate group. The Ecuadorians hate the Peruvians, and the Guatemalans refuse to work with the Hondurans, the Bolivians and Columbians don't get along, none of "them" will hire black people, and the Cubans and Puerto Ricans are always at each other's throats here. Even within the Mexicans, they are not uinified. I live in an Oaxacan neighborhood and they are pretty territorial. I found it interesting when my Mexican friends say how much they hated the Oaxacans for refusing to speak Spanish and assimilate into Mexican culture. I was shocked and speechless.
In any case, the Minutemen et al are NOT racist nor xenophobic. They are not anti-immigrant, they are anti-illegal immigrant. BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG difference. People all too often clud the issues and can't or won't make the distinction.
There can't be any racism simply because Latino's are not a race. If you can show me how Ricky Martin and Sammy Sosa (both Latinos) are the same race then I will eat my hat.
The Minutemen (God bless them) are also posted on our borders with Canada so let's not cloud the issues and try to create racism where none exists. The only thing shameful is the fact that they are doing the job our own government refuses to do and they are not even getting paid to do so. They would ratehr shake down my grandma at the airport than protect our nation's porous' borders. When my international friends ask how they can get a visa or emigrate to the US, I tell them, don't bother. Just go to Mexico and cross over from there.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by willravel
You didn't say please, but I'll post a source anyway:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13
They've tried to avoid official ties, but they do recruit heavily out of the National Alliance. It only makes sense, really. Who would be better to keep Mexicans in Mexico than people who want to 'keep America white'? When Gim Gilchrist, the head of the Minutemen, was on Democracy Now!, he was challenged in a debate about having ties to the National Alliance. He didn't deny it, but ended the interview without giving response. Had he publicly made any negative statements about the National Alliance or any other white supremacist groups, he would have been risking losing a great deal of Minutemen. In fact, when Gilchrist has rarely come out and said that the Minutemen is not a supremacist groups he has lost members.
The Minutemen are not good guys. They are both racists and xenophobes. They prey on those that are less fortunate and have no choice but to try and cross the border. I really enjoyed the episode of 30 days where a Minuteman had to live with an immigrant family. I only wish all Minutemen had that opportunity. |
They are not trying to "keep Mexicans in Mexico" they are trying to uphold the laws of our country. Again, no one is anti-immigrant, they are anti-illegal immigrant and the flagrant flouting of the laws of this country.
I would also like to point out that the so-called Hispanic population in Cali overwhelmingly voted against driver's licenses for illegals. The Latino-American demographic is also against unlawful entry and illegal immigration. ILLEGAL, NOT, LEGAL.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by willravel
... and have no choice but to try and cross the border.
|
Of course they have a choice. They can legally immigrate. We all did. Again, no one is against anyone legally immigrating here. In fact, I welcome them with all due enthusiasm. Immigrants made our country great. What I cannot abide is the unlawful, illegal immigration.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by The_Jazz
Cyn, perhaps another point in your favor in that my neat little solution was neither neat nor a solution - just like the real world. You fall outside my xenophobia/racism argument for the most part. Honestly, most first and second generation immigrants usually do, and they're typically harder on illegals than others.
What I find interesting is that no one has mentioned the thousands of illegal European immigrants that are here. The two Polish women that work for the cleaning service my wife hired are almost certainly illegally working, if not here illegally. I know of at least 5 fencing coaches in Chicago that are here on expired visas, one of whom coached 2 athletes to national championships and makes well over $100k/year. They're all here illegally, but because they got off a plane and didn't have to walk in, they get less attention.
|
Actually they get more INS attention but less media attention. That is the other problem with this framework is that typically the crowd screaming "you racists" are too narrowminded and only see this as a "Hispanic' issue.
Again, no one is anti-Hispanic nor is anyone racist (mostly due to the fact that Hispanics ARE NOT A RACE). What people are against is illegla immigration, NOT legal immigration. How would that make us racist or xenophobic?
I think part of the problem is that roachboy, Mixedmedia et al (besides insulting us) fail to understand our point and quickly reduce our viewpoint to a one-dimensional "they are hate filled raciast vitriolic fascist etc etc blah blah" instead of the basic argument and premise that we have laid out and keep laying out which is the issue of legality. That's it. Plain and simple.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by dc_dux
As to the bilingual issue:
The 14th amendment to the Constitution provides that "no state shall abridge the privilieges of citizens... nor deny any person equal protection under the law."
If that means bilingual education, multilingual ballots and other govt documents, while at the same time providing the opportunity for learning english....whats the big fucking deal? How does that hurt you or me?
|
Um, yes it does. It adds more cost to an already strained system as well as impeding the development of the students they are supposed to help. I am grateful I wasn't given a bilingual education, that I wasn't lazy and worked hard in school. Again, what is so hard or wrong or bad about learning English? I would think it would be beneficial to the student yes?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by archetypal fool
You (Pan) still don't seem to understand something, man. Actually, to be more fair, we have a difference in morality, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I want you ot get something strait. People don't come here explicitly to ruin your life. They come here because they have some problem (war, poverty, etc...) and the solution is to move to a more prosperous country. If they can't move to said country hastily enough, what do you expect them to do? Stay there and starve or die while they wait for visas to clear and their governments (or ours) to get the ball rolling so they can come here? That's ridiculous. And yes...It's illegal. No one's debating that. But realize that this is one of those laws which splits people apart (case in point...).
It all goes back to moral arguments.
I don't remember where I read this, but consider this situation: In biblical time, you and your family are poor for reasons beyond your control, dying of starvation. You get caught stealing a piece of bread for your family. Did you break a law? Absolutely. But should you be condemned to prison (or killed) because of it? After all, you did break the law, and anyone who breaks the law is automatically evil and a shit of a person, right? According to your logic, this person is as bad as a murderer, or rapist. After all, they are all criminals...
Put yourself in the shoes of a person fleeing their country to come to ours. Get rid of this division of "me" and "them".
Since my case didn't make any difference in your view of us, consider the story of Jose Gutierrez. By your standards, a notorious criminal who deserved to rot in jail (for illegally coming to this country). He went to the join the Marines, to serve for his country, and make money for college and his sister. He was the first combat casualty of the war with Iraq. He died for us. Do you think if he hadn't been such a scumbag, you would be grateful? Whatever...He was just another dirty "illegal". |
Archetype, I appreciate your humanity but I feel you are making en error in arguing for a moral angle. Obviously all these people are coming here for a better life. But your story is just an attempt to play on emotions and only serves to cloud the issue. I'm sorry that guy died in Iraq but what does this have to do with this thread? If I don't support the war in Iraq then why would I be grateful to Guttierez? He didn't die for us? Please, not in our name. Does this make me xenophobic, racist now? Does this mean all the people against the war are also anti immigrant xenophobic racist because they don't support the war?
Why do you keep saying us? Who are you identifying with? Do you mean you as an American or something else?
You say "get rid of this division of me and them" yet you choose to create a division by using "us" when you say "your view of us" then go back to saying "our country". What do you mean by us? Us Mexicans? Us illegals? Us Americans?