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Originally Posted by shakran
What you call elitist bullshit I call mature debating. You seem to be saying you'd like this forum to descend into an anarchic free-for-all in which anyone can spew any crap they want without being called on it. .
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No, I just don't believe people need to put up pages upon pages of bullshit that they find on the internet that back them up, when I can find the same crap.
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Political debate requires at least two sides. If everyone runs and hides under a rock the minute someone says something they don't agree with, you don't have much debate
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But debate is done with respect not personally attacking as you have done in your reply to me (and yes, there were personal attacks as I will show later).
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The number of contradictions here is staggering. First you say move on when you don't agree, and then you complain that people want you to shut up rather than give your opinion. Not to mention the fact that you're not exactly moving on by disagreeing with me. Let's be realistic here. If someone spouts what you feel is bullshit, you should call them on it. Period.
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No, I said move on if you don't like the post and feel it is bullshit and cannot civilly reply to the person. If you have to personally attack the person or their belief in a way that is demeaning (much like you did in your reply)... then move on. NOONE should be demeaned and talked down to for their beliefs.... that is elitist, holier than thou, "I'm right and you're just stupid" attitudes and those have no place in debate.
Attacking the idea and showing where there are holes but treating the person with respect and allowing them dignity and the oppurtunity to see another side is true debate.
If I say Bush is destroying the economic infrastructure and I give my reasons and opinion based on my experiences and what I believe and then you argue the opposite, based on your experiences and beliefs.... we may show each other something that we can think about and influence our opinions as well as others who maybe reading.
But, if in your reply you ignore what I said, or rip it apart with no respect and showing no interest in what I believe and why.... then you are just flat out attacking and you won't change anyone's views.
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You thought wrong. You have the right to speak your opinion without getting arrested for it. If your opinion disagrees with mine, then *I* too have the right to speak my opinion. I'm sorry that you view disagreement with YOUR (meaning you, Pan, not the collective you) opinion as harassment, but that's simply not the case.
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No, you can disagree with my views and ideas all you want.... however, when you attack me personally for my ideas and views... you are then in a way trying to censor what I say and believe.
Look at the tone, the attitude of what your reply was and tell me you gave respect and could see my side.... You can't you believe your side to be 100% right and when I made my post you had to rip me personally... not the idea.
You don't want to debate you want to destroy me and my views. You want what I said to look foolish, ignorant and unintelligible so that you can feel good about yourself and believe you won something.
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Acting as though fundamental truths are 99% opinion and should therefore be welcomed with open arms is cowering from the debate.
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What truths? Politics is not about truth..... it's all about winning people over to your beliefs on how the government should be run.
As I stated and you seem to not touch on, you can find 10 pages of bullshit supporting your beliefs, I can find 10 pages of bullshit supporting mine.... it all comes down to opinion.
Take global warming for instance...... some say it is man made.... some say the Sun is overly active and Mars' icecaps melting show it's not just us, thus it's not manmade, some say it's just hooey, period.
You take a stance and get piles of bullshit proof, I take a stance get piles of bullshit proof.... neither of us have done anything but supply others with piles of bullshit.
Tell people in your own words why you believe what you believe... (I'm not saying don't have the proof at hand, use links... use parts that show what you want shown.... but don't bog the people down).
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Pan it sounds to me like you're saying you don't see the point of this forum at all. If you don't like debate, and you don't like it when someone contradicts you, then that's your perogative, but don't expect to find a happy home in a forum that is defined BY debate.
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I like debate, Ace and I have had some very good debates, Stevo and I have had some very good debates.... we never once had to attack the other, we could show respect for each other while at the same time getting our points across. We didn't have to rely on just posting articles and saying, "Yeah, what this said." We pushed each other to be intelligent and to show why we believed what we did.
It is far more intelligent and harder to support your ideas and beliefs when you have to actually think for yourself then just post some articles and say, "yeah...." or attack the other person and show them or their beliefs no respect.
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And that's the point. Of course it's opinion. When did opinion become bad?
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Opinion is a part of individuality, it is part of what makes us all different, of course it is good..... but the attacking someone personally, treating them as lessers, acting superior over someone because their opinion differs from yours is wrong.
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And if I post that I believe the world is flat and Europe doesn't exist and it's all anti-religious bullshit, you don't think I should have SOMETHING to back me up on that? Dude I can sit here and make stuff up all day long, but if that's the kind of crap you want this forum to devolve into I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. There's no point in debating with someone if they're just making up the facts that led to their opinion as they go along. If you want people to realize you're not just inventing lies in order to support your fantasy world opinion, then you're going to have to show us where you got your facts. That's just how it works.
No, Politics became one of the more intelligent political debate forums on the internet. You don't see a bunch of crap in here about Bush being a closet nazi or Clinton (Mrs) being a closet lesbian because people in here realize that you can't just spout cheap bullshit without being called on it. Now unfortunately some OTHER people around here have decided that's "elitist bullshit," presumably because they can't be bothered to actually inform themselves of the issues before jumping to an opinion. All opinions are welcome here, but you'd better know the facts underlying those opinions or you'll get crucified. And frankly, that's how it should be. You can find PLENTY of forums out there where you can make shit up or form an opinion that's not based on the real world at all. Do we want to copy them, or do we want to set a higher standard? My vote's for the latter.
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First od all, I am not an elephant's phallic hair, so I am not a "DUDE".....
Ok so you post crazy ass bullshit, soon noone reads your posts, you get no replies, you get no audience.
I look at what your doing and what I see is someone trying to take what Isay to extremes and read more into what I wrote than what was truly there.
And you show your elitism and holier than thouism...... ordinary people can't debate, they'll say stupid shit and not have anything to back it up... only those of us that are educated and read the news truly know what is going on and thus only OUR views count. Unless you have 10 pages of bullshit, you have nothing to add.
My belief is that your post was to justify the elitism and to keep things the same in an area that is dying rather than face the truth.... the truth is there are some here that just want to keep politics bogged down with pages of bullshit and as Mixed put it....lowblows and bullshit but sourced only from those sources they agree with.
Of course what do I know, I just spent 1/2 writing this post, doing exactly what I accuse you of doing, being holier than thou.
Awww fuck it my views are right, I am right you're just a peon. (BTW that was meant in humor and sarcasm.)
What I find amazing and Mixed just touched on this...... the lefties here seem to like the board the way it is....... the reason they may not want change is because then people from the Right may actually come back and true debates and ideas will be exchanged from newcomers..... and their monopoly and hate tactics will have to cease.
(BTW..... I am far more left than Right but I see what some are doing in politics chasing away the Righties and not having any debates at all.)