Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - NJ Supreme Court: Same-sex couples guaranteed marriage rights.

JustJess · 10-31-2006, 10:36 AM

Roachboy, I think you're probably right....

Infinite Loser and NCB: Let me assess things further by going down the list of typical arguments against gay marriage.

1. It will ruin marriage as we know it.
Actually, Marriage as we knew it is already ruined. As has been stated numerous times, we already have a 48% divorce rate. Gay people certainly can't fuck it up worse than that, can they? Leading us to the Pro-camp's claim:

A. Gay marriage won't screw up marriage - how would someone else's marriage affect you? You're not married to them! Leading to Against-Camp's next salle:

2. If Gay marriage won't hurt anyone else, it won't help you, either, since you're straight. What do you care? Ahem, see Pro-Camp's next point:

B. We're not saying that gay marriage will help US in particular (except Gilda, of course). We're saying that it is wrong to limit the civil rights of any group of people, and marriage is a CIVIL right (not just a religious one). We want equal rights for all, and all rights for all, not just those we like.

3. Against-Camp's next point: marriage is for having babies, and gay people can't do that without a lot of help. It's not "natural". Leading to Pro-camp's point C:

C. Lots of hetero relationships do not result in children. By choice, and by natural occurence of inability to have children. Yet, they get to be married and enjoy all the civil rights associated with marriage.

Further, lots of hetero couples need a lot of medical/social help to have children. (I have a few friends who have gone down that road.) "Naturally" they should not be able to, but due to advances in science or the ability to adopt, they do have children. But they're allowed to be married and enjoy those civil benefits. Thus there is no biological reason for gay people to not be married with or without children (of one of them, or adopted).

Next! Against-Camp's #4:

4. Gay people are only 3-5% of the population. Why should they make the rest of us change what we think marriage should be? It's always blah-blah-blah special interest groups. Majority rules!

D. In terms of who we elect, yes. What products stay in business, yes. But for civil rights? No. All people must be treated equally under the law of the U.S. That is what we built this country on. "Hey, there are only two black people in this town, so they can just sit in the back of the bus." Uhhhh, no. Not anymore. Leading us to Against-Camp #5:

5. But this isn't anything like civil rights or suffrage.

E. Yes, yes it is. Rights are being denied to a particular group for no reason other than who they love. All people in the U.S. deserve equal treatment under the law. That's it.
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As for religion... religion needs to stay out of this. Religion is for the churches and temples and shrines. Religion is not for the courthouses or justices of the peace or the legislation. This is a civil issue. It should remain so.

10-31-2006, 10:36 AM	#307 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Roachboy, I think you're probably right.... Infinite Loser and NCB: Let me assess things further by going down the list of typical arguments against gay marriage. 1. It will ruin marriage as we know it. Actually, Marriage as we knew it is already ruined. As has been stated numerous times, we already have a 48% divorce rate. Gay people certainly can't fuck it up worse than that, can they? Leading us to the Pro-camp's claim: A. Gay marriage won't screw up marriage - how would someone else's marriage affect you? You're not married to them! Leading to Against-Camp's next salle: 2. If Gay marriage won't hurt anyone else, it won't help you, either, since you're straight. What do you care? Ahem, see Pro-Camp's next point: B. We're not saying that gay marriage will help US in particular (except Gilda, of course). We're saying that it is wrong to limit the civil rights of any group of people, and marriage is a CIVIL right (not just a religious one). We want equal rights for all, and all rights for all, not just those we like. 3. Against-Camp's next point: marriage is for having babies, and gay people can't do that without a lot of help. It's not "natural". Leading to Pro-camp's point C: C. Lots of hetero relationships do not result in children. By choice, and by natural occurence of inability to have children. Yet, they get to be married and enjoy all the civil rights associated with marriage. Further, lots of hetero couples need a lot of medical/social help to have children. (I have a few friends who have gone down that road.) "Naturally" they should not be able to, but due to advances in science or the ability to adopt, they do have children. But they're allowed to be married and enjoy those civil benefits. Thus there is no biological reason for gay people to not be married with or without children (of one of them, or adopted). Next! Against-Camp's #4: 4. Gay people are only 3-5% of the population. Why should they make the rest of us change what we think marriage should be? It's always blah-blah-blah special interest groups. Majority rules! D. In terms of who we elect, yes. What products stay in business, yes. But for civil rights? No. All people must be treated equally under the law of the U.S. That is what we built this country on. "Hey, there are only two black people in this town, so they can just sit in the back of the bus." Uhhhh, no. Not anymore. Leading us to Against-Camp #5: 5. But this isn't anything like civil rights or suffrage. E. Yes, yes it is. Rights are being denied to a particular group for no reason other than who they love. All people in the U.S. deserve equal treatment under the law. That's it. _________________________________________________________________ As for religion... religion needs to stay out of this. Religion is for the churches and temples and shrines. Religion is not for the courthouses or justices of the peace or the legislation. This is a civil issue. It should remain so. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.