guthmund

First of all, I re-read a lot of what I put up and I was a quite flippant. So for that, I apologize.

Truth be told, I'm not arguing for or against anything. I have no particular stance to defend. It's impossible to definitively prove or disprove anything as it concerns religion. I just enjoy the discussion and the easiest way to keep the discussion going is to play devil's advocate...no matter how poorly you play the role sometimes.

Is God's word sufficient? Isn't the Bible good enough to stand as a definitive source on its own? Yes and no...like you said, your approach is based on your belief. The problem, if you can even call it a problem is that you assume I do as well. So because the word of God is law, for you the Bible is an authoritative source.

It's probably true that if you believe in Heaven, it also stands to reason that you believe in God as well. God, as keeper of the keys to the kingdom gets to set his rules for entrance to his home. That's really not the issue though, in my opinion.

nezmot asked what had happened to the practice of sacrifice. I quoted Jeremiah and Hosea, which I felt was sufficient to cover that corner. But there is also some significant historical records concerning the end of the practice of sacrifice among the early Jews. Well, indirect historical records.... Anyway, since nezmot didn't ask why God Himself stopped the practice of sacrifice, I felt that the straightdope article was worth a mention.

I can see why you're confused as to what the hell I mean, I've read over what I posted two or three times and it's really not that clear. My apologies. I have poorly tried to write what my brain was attempting to explain.

The phrase, "Jesus died for our sins" implies to me two things. The first is that his choice to die on the cross was truly altruistic. That his sacrifice was designed to bring salvation to mankind unequivocally. That whether I want it or not, Jesus has become my sin for me and saved my soul from eternal damnation free of charge. But it's not free of charge, is it? You have to proffer belief. You have to believe in both the Father and the Son. You don't get to Heaven if you don't believe in its divine kingship and you don't get to Heaven if you deny Christ. Faith is what is asked of you for salvation. Belief in the Holy Father and belief that his Son was sent to save you. So there is an exchange....and salvation isn't 'free' after all. Is 'belief' all that important? To some it is nothing...what does it matter if I choose to believe in Christ. It can't hurt to cover all my bases, yes? To others belief is everything and should not be thrown around lightly and needlessly.

The second is that it sort of implies that all sin is gone. That our sins are gone, which isn't really all that true.. I mean, if Jesus' sacrifice had washed away the infinite offense we've done to God then why does salvation still require faith? If the infinite offense has been nullified, then doesn't everyone who leads a just life and not just those that have accepted Christ has personal savior and such get to go to Heaven?

That's just it, God isn't asking for anything..He's designed the rules such that I've no choice but to acquiesce to his demands if I want to go to Heaven. If I'm a Christian and I want to go to Heaven there is no choice. I can live my life in service to God, I can abide by all his rules and do good works and none of it matters if I refuse the notion of Christ as savior. There is no choice. Well, no realistic choice. I could choose to deny Christ and spend eternity in Hell, but what kind of choice is that. Here buddy, life eternal, all your loved ones, Christmas everyday or....fire and brimstone, a really bad landlord to deal with and the ever present threat of being poked with pitchforks. It's only a 'choice' by the basest of definitions. "Allow us to ask for forgiveness," indeed. It's easy to be seen as benevolent when you make all the rules.


Good discussion. I've confused it a bit...but good, nonetheless

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