crumbbum

Many Palestinians did leave before the Israeli soldiers got there. Is that really surprising to you? Would you wait for the soldiers to tap their guns on your door before you decided to leave? There was a war going on, what do you expect these people to do? Why does them leaving to avoid an oncoming army deny them any rights to their land? Also, many did in fact choose to stay only to be forced out at gunpoint by the Haganah, the Stern and the Irgun Zionist forces. Why should they stay and become Israeli citizens? The point is, they had no choice. You say a few have a case for reimbursement. What if they want their home back instead?

Like I said, fear was deliberately sown in these people by those in the arab world that wanted them to leave, since anyone staying made the arabs look bad. There was indeed a war going on, but a significant enough number of Arabs stayed in their homes to prove that except in the cases where they were forced to live (33%), they had the choice to stay and live in peace with their neighbors. Why Israeli citizens? Arab-Israelis make the most money, have the best standard of living and enjoy more political rights than in any country in the Arab world. (Turkey is one possible exception). Most Israeli arabs, in polls, would not want to live in the Palestinian state, were it to be created.

"How can you say this area, so hotly contested for its importance to two religions (one the 2nd largest in the world), was barren and empty? I'm not surprised by your comments, they are common in the Zionist propoganda machine. The area was not underpopulated, it was a religious centre."
Those are the numbers, 250,000 arabs in the land before Jewish immigration. I don't know why more people weren't there- I would assume because it was so hard to live there, since there was rampant malaria and the ground was unfertile. It should be noted that the Israelis have always protected and respected the holy sites of other religions, even when it conflicted with their own (like the Temple mount). Israeli holy places, like Joseph's tomb in Nablus/Shechem, have been destroyed. The yeshiva and synagogue on the site of Joseph's tomb were burned to the ground, and a mosque built in its place. Then, more recently, the tomb itself was desecrated. Jerusalem had a majority of Jews before Jewish immigration began.

In every aspect of life, from education to health care, being an Arab is a hindrance to them in Israel.
Arabs in Israel receive the same health care as Jews. As far as education and other public services, the Arab population resembles in a lot of ways the Chareidim is Israel, having many children. Also, statistically Arab-Israelis have failed to pay their taxes as much as Jewish Israelis- as a direct result, the public services in Arab-Israeli areas are underfunded. I am not saying that there is perfect equality, but they are not 2nd class citizens.


"The doublestandard you present is remarkable. Bi-nationalism would cause Jews to be relegated to 2nd class citizenship? What about those Arab-Israeli's who live as 2nd class citizens today? In every aspect of life, from education to health care, being an Arab is a hindrance to them in Israel. Islam has always been accepting of Judaism. Mohammed referred to both Jews and Christians as people of the book. When the Spanish Inquisition started, where did the Jews run to? They ran to the Muslims for protection, that is why there's a Jewish population in Morocco. I don't pretend to make excuses for all conflicts, but to label Jews as 2nd class citizens in their history with Muslims is unfounded."'

Jews often were treated somewhat favorably in Muslim countries, certainly better than in Europe. However, this goodwill often changed overnight, and there were many massacres of Jews by arab mobs as well. Jews were 2nd class citizens- they "dhimmis". There were laws like "A Jew's head must never be higher than an Arab's", Jews had to pay special taxes, to wear special marking, like a yellow patch marking them as a Jew, their testimony did not count in a court, if a Muslim killed a Jew, he was only required to pay "blood money", instead of the death penalty resulting from killing another Muslim. Also, since Jewish testimony wasn't counted in court, even this often was ignored.
Under the most benign rulers, Jews basically had only to mark themselves, pay special taxes, live in ghettos and accept their 2nd class status. But when there were social or economic upheavals in the country, the Jews often paid the price, when angry mobs would go into the Jewish quarters and commit massacres. Jews were also forced sometimes to do the worst jobs, like picking animal carcasses off the street, or cleaning latrines, sometimes on their Sabbath, for no pay.
Basically, Muslim rule was far better than European, but it was still terrible for the Jews.


"Your post reeks of religious bias. The Jews have been in exile? What about the constant Jewish presence in the region and especially Jerusalem? Israel is their home? According to whom? Are you gonna tell me God works in real estate? If that is your contention then there's really nothing more to say. Jewish prayers are legitimate enough to displace an entire population? According to Arafat himself, he was born in Jerusalem. Others say he was born in Cairo. There is no internationally accepted answer. For you to steadfastly claim one answer is intellectually dishonest. However, we KNOW that his mother and father were Palestinian as well as his family lineage. Is that not good enough for you? Must he be born in Palestine? Tell me, what is Sharon's background?"

First, there has been a constant Jewish presence in the land of Israel, but it was small. Most Jews never could have come. Israel is the Jewish homeland because it was where the Jewish kingdoms existed, and where the Jews were exiled from by the Romans. In the Jewish religion, the land was promised to them by G-d. But from a secular perspective, it was simply where they had been a nation. The land is filled with archaelogical evidence of the Jewish kingdoms there. Since the Jewish exile 1900 years ago, religious Jews have prayed facing the Land of Israel, and it is mentioned constantly throughout the Jewish liturgy. I am not saying anything from religious bias, these are just the facts of the matter. I never said that the Jewish religion is reason to expel a population. The only arabs that were expelled by Jews were expelled in 1948, for military purposes. It is important to note that no one would have been expelled if the Arabs hadn't declared war on Israel. There wouldn't have been any fighting, and no one would have been expelled. In fact, under the UN mandate, there would have been a Palestinian state then, which the Jews accepted.
About Arafat, he says he was born in Jerusalem because this is what he would like people to believe, as the founder of the PLO. He was born in Cairo. I don't know about his parents, but I know about his uncle, the Mufti. The Mufti, who I talked about in my last post, met with Hitler and Eichmann, and begged them to bring the"Final Solution" to Palestine. He was also responsible for fomenting hatred and fear in the Palestinian arabs, and for ruining co-existence. He was the head of the Fedayeen. (So that's where Arafat gets it....). He came to Jerusalem to live with his uncle as a boy. As far as his parents being Palestinian, again this means that originally they are from a surrounding country, I don't know for sure which one, although it is probably Egypt. Sharon is a Jew, descended from the Israelites, who were exiled from the land of Israel 1900 years ago.

"Look at the conditions the Palestinians live in and tell me how they could possibly build a sustainable economy. Are you serious? Curfews, demolitions, destroyed power plants. This is an every day way of life for these people. How can they be expected to thrive under these conditions? Are we not seeing the same slums on tv?"
I agree completely. This is why they deserve new leadership not compromised by terror, monetary interest or a political agenda. The only time this development could have happened was after Oslo, when the Palestinians were granted autonomy. Arafat and the PA's corrupt leadership stole money from the people, crashed the Palestinian economy and ruined chances for peace and development. It can't happen as long as Israel has to carry out curfews and raids, etc. The terror needs to stop so that the Palestinians can have their lives back. Without an end of terrorism though, Israel has no choice but to defend it's citizens.

I'd like to end with one point about the Palestinian refugees- there would have been no refugees had there been no war. There would have been no war if the Arab countries hadn't collectively declared it. It is the fault of these countries not only for starting the war, but for urging and intimidating the Palestinian arabs to leave their homes when they didn't have to. There could have been a Palestinian state in 48, and no refugees at all. The primary responsibility for refugees expelled because of military necessity, by Israel in the course of the war, rests with the Arab countries that started the war. The same countries are guilty of ignoring the Palestinians humanitarian needs, and leaving them in refugee camps as a political weapon against Israel. This is a really sick exploitation of human suffering. The same countries also owe reparations to the Jews that were expelled. The reason it is unlikely that the few refugees who do have legitimate claims of disposesion will ever be able to return to their homes, is because it wasn't Israel's fault that they were expelled, it was the fault of the Arab countries, and it is unlikely that Israel will accept that responsibility. These people should, however, be monetarily reimbursed for their losses, and maybe even offered Israeli citizenship, if they were not enemies of the state.

__________________
Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.