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asaris · 05-19-2005, 09:38 AM

Well, I don't remember the case as well as I used to, but as I recall, there is enough evidence that, at the very least, there was an itinerant rabbi named Jesus during the first part of the first century CE that it's simply ludicrous to think that this isn't the case. Think about it -- there are several writings, with very good provenance, all written within 60 years of his death, and some written within 20-30 years of his death, that say, if nothing else, that there was a guy named Jesus wandering around. Why on earth would you think that, not only did the apostles make up Christ's claims to divinity, but that he even existed?

Martin_Guerre: I don't really want to argue the point with you, since, for one, you're obviously more familiar with the scholarship than I am, and for two, I've done it before here (that argument was inconclusive, btw). But I do think that, if the word "Christianity" is going to mean anything, it needs to refer to a core set of beliefs, otherwise it's going to go the way of 'gentleman'. I happen to think that a good core set of beliefs happens to be the Apostles' Creed, though you could very easily convince me that even a couple of those beliefs are not necessary to be a Christian. I don't equate being a Christian with being saved, however. I don't know who's going to be saved; God could save all of us, though given scripture, this is unlikely, or He could damn all of us, though given scripture, this is even more unlikely, and with neither option could any of us justly complain. So I don't know if someone who denies the divinity of Christ is going to be saved, but I want to reserve the right to think that they're not a Christian.

05-19-2005, 09:38 AM	#35 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Well, I don't remember the case as well as I used to, but as I recall, there is enough evidence that, at the very least, there was an itinerant rabbi named Jesus during the first part of the first century CE that it's simply ludicrous to think that this isn't the case. Think about it -- there are several writings, with very good provenance, all written within 60 years of his death, and some written within 20-30 years of his death, that say, if nothing else, that there was a guy named Jesus wandering around. Why on earth would you think that, not only did the apostles make up Christ's claims to divinity, but that he even existed? Martin_Guerre: I don't really want to argue the point with you, since, for one, you're obviously more familiar with the scholarship than I am, and for two, I've done it before here (that argument was inconclusive, btw). But I do think that, if the word "Christianity" is going to mean anything, it needs to refer to a core set of beliefs, otherwise it's going to go the way of 'gentleman'. I happen to think that a good core set of beliefs happens to be the Apostles' Creed, though you could very easily convince me that even a couple of those beliefs are not necessary to be a Christian. I don't equate being a Christian with being saved, however. I don't know who's going to be saved; God could save all of us, though given scripture, this is unlikely, or He could damn all of us, though given scripture, this is even more unlikely, and with neither option could any of us justly complain. So I don't know if someone who denies the divinity of Christ is going to be saved, but I want to reserve the right to think that they're not a Christian. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche