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crumbbum · 05-18-2003, 06:48 AM

SLM3, this could go on forever, but it has only been established that Sharon gave the ok for the Phalangists to go into the camps to carry out their mission, which was to clear out the PLO presence. This was done, by the Israelis all over Lebanon, and is not the paradox you have presented it as. The PLO had a pseudo-army- there were bunkers and weapons caches at Sabra and Chatila, and there were, it was estimated beforehand, between 100-200 PLO fighters holed up there. Sharon gave the ok for the Phalangists to go in- that is not in doubt. But it is a serious allegation to say that he had knowledge of, or even more serious, gave an order for a massacre.
Since in court he has already been found innocent of these things, in his suit against Time magazine (and the Israeli publication), as well as the Kahan commission, the burden of proof is on you if you are trying to prove that despite the findings in these three cases, that they are wrong and he had direct knowledge and/or participation. I don't see how you assume he knew everything that was happening- the Phalangists went in alone, and as Minister of Defense in wartime, I assume he was a pretty busy man- he had many other things going on at the same time as well. If he had been listening on the radio, or somehow in direct contact, that would have been surfaced. The Kahan commision, although you don't take it seriously, was ordered by people who were political enemies of Sharon, and it was meticulous. I am not expecting you to rely on that as the only proof, of course. But you have presented no evidence that would indicate his guilt or direct compliance- at most, he is guilty of poor judgement, as the commission found (he "should have known"). Again, no one else predicted this either, it wasn't obvious before it happened. They did not have orders to carry out a massacre.
And about your trivialization of the Jordanian massacre of Palestinians, yes, the PLO tried to overthrow the government. It was civilians that were killed, in the thousands. You don't care about this? The Phalangists, representatives of the Lebanese, killed Palestinians in a revenge attack for the assassination of their president, and the years of brutalization by the PLO.
The Syrian occupation of Lebanon is not a historical fallacy, that is ridiculous. That is a terrible thing to say. Lebanon is a sovereign country.
Anyway, like I said before, the burden of proof is on you, and you haven't presented any. I understand your suspicion, I had much of it myself on learning about the topic. I didn't make up my mind until I learned the details, and observed the facts. I am not arguing with you to defend Sharon, I'm only trying to defend the truth. Anyway, unless you can post something which proves your point I'm done with the discussion.

05-18-2003, 06:48 AM	#46 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	SLM3, this could go on forever, but it has only been established that Sharon gave the ok for the Phalangists to go into the camps to carry out their mission, which was to clear out the PLO presence. This was done, by the Israelis all over Lebanon, and is not the paradox you have presented it as. The PLO had a pseudo-army- there were bunkers and weapons caches at Sabra and Chatila, and there were, it was estimated beforehand, between 100-200 PLO fighters holed up there. Sharon gave the ok for the Phalangists to go in- that is not in doubt. But it is a serious allegation to say that he had knowledge of, or even more serious, gave an order for a massacre. Since in court he has already been found innocent of these things, in his suit against Time magazine (and the Israeli publication), as well as the Kahan commission, the burden of proof is on you if you are trying to prove that despite the findings in these three cases, that they are wrong and he had direct knowledge and/or participation. I don't see how you assume he knew everything that was happening- the Phalangists went in alone, and as Minister of Defense in wartime, I assume he was a pretty busy man- he had many other things going on at the same time as well. If he had been listening on the radio, or somehow in direct contact, that would have been surfaced. The Kahan commision, although you don't take it seriously, was ordered by people who were political enemies of Sharon, and it was meticulous. I am not expecting you to rely on that as the only proof, of course. But you have presented no evidence that would indicate his guilt or direct compliance- at most, he is guilty of poor judgement, as the commission found (he "should have known"). Again, no one else predicted this either, it wasn't obvious before it happened. They did not have orders to carry out a massacre. And about your trivialization of the Jordanian massacre of Palestinians, yes, the PLO tried to overthrow the government. It was civilians that were killed, in the thousands. You don't care about this? The Phalangists, representatives of the Lebanese, killed Palestinians in a revenge attack for the assassination of their president, and the years of brutalization by the PLO. The Syrian occupation of Lebanon is not a historical fallacy, that is ridiculous. That is a terrible thing to say. Lebanon is a sovereign country. Anyway, like I said before, the burden of proof is on you, and you haven't presented any. I understand your suspicion, I had much of it myself on learning about the topic. I didn't make up my mind until I learned the details, and observed the facts. I am not arguing with you to defend Sharon, I'm only trying to defend the truth. Anyway, unless you can post something which proves your point I'm done with the discussion. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.