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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
Slavery exists not where there's simply an exchange of currency or property or work, I recognize that as the capitalist system and I don't object to it.
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I don't care if you object to it, unless you are qualifying your definition of slavery to be "and, I don't object to it".
You work for other people, or you starve to death, in modern society. You can't support yourself. This, if you get anal about it, is slavery.
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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
Slavery exists when one side has all the power in the relationship and can dictate the terms to the other. Yes, I'm not being told I have to work in the cotton fields, but I am being told what to do, I'm being taxed while I work, and my work enriches other people to an extent far greater than it enriches me.
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How are you being told what to do?
For the most part, laws are property laws and harm-laws.
There are a pile of morality laws, ranging from drug laws on down -- are you talking about those? I find them regrettable and avoidable.
Or just tax law?
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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
Exactly wrong. Paying a fixed tax would be a better system, then you're only paying a fee for the services provided. Paying depending on how hard you work is just like slave labour. What the slaves worked for was given directly to the plantation owner, granted, in that case it was 100% of the slave's work, whereas here it's 33% or so.
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When you work, as a personal trainer, for a gym, the gym takes a cut of your pay from the people you train. Is the personal trainer a slave of the gym?
A fixed tax says 'you must do X for us, or we put you in jail'. A marginal tax makes no such demands.
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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
Right, all the land has been claimed by rich people. They own it, because they say they do and because they have weapons which can kill me if I don't respect their property boundary. That they will continue to own it forever doesn't make it right, it just means they have a bigger leviathan than me. (and again, I have no desire to kill or be killed, so please don't take this the wrong way).
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By rich, you mean 'North Americans'? You don't have to be that rich to own a small plot of land.
The people here before you own the land. Do you feel that you are owed the land simply because you where born near it or on it?
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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
Well, if you mean it matters less than genocide or something, sure, but it does matter to me, since I'm the one being exploited for other's pleasure.
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If you are exploited, and better off, is this evil? Ie, they offer you a job for 1$ an hour. They earn 3$ an hour. If they didn't offer you the job, you would be able to earn 0.50$ an hour. Now, is that exploitation evil?
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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
I admit, I don't know what you do for a living, perhaps you're a porn star or something, but I think you have the flow chart upside down. Money and resources are how you purchase things, how you employ others, and how you make life easier for yourself. When you have a lot of money, you can do this a lot. When you have very little, you have to purchase the cheap vodka, or do these things to a lesser extent than the rich people do. Also, in this country (America) the system is designed so that the rich people stay rich without having to continue to work. When someone owns a factory, he doesn't even have to work in it to make money. He makes money because other people pay him to use his stuff, which is only his because he says it is.
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Laugh, why would I care how expensive my vodka is?
I make life easier for myself by living an easy life. I'm no porn star. I just don't bother needing shit.
I don't need to employ others, other than in the abstract: people already build roads for me, serve me food whenever I want it, and serve me when I need it. And it's cheap.
If others can employ others more, well, more power to them. Jealosy is stupid.
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Originally Posted by Master_Shake
Yeah, those are the children working in sweatshops in Thailand, or the illegal immigrants brought over to serve as prostitutes. I'm glad you're so happy at the idea of exploiting others.
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Or, my Brother, who works as a consultant, and works 60-70 hour weeks. He's working fucking hard, and in general makes the rest of the world a slightly better place for me.
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When it's an equal exchange, bargained for consideration, both parties gain something and both parties lose something, then you're right, it isn't slavery. But when one has all the power in the relationship, and can dictate the terms, that is slavery.
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Heh, well, then, nobody has 'all the power in the relationship' when dealing with me. So, by your definition, I'm not a slave.
I'd suspect anyone with any marketable skills has some power in every employment relationship. Even in a democracy, you have your vote, which is a very small amount of power, but some power. You also have your voice, yet more power.
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Rich people don't provide anything to society, they leech off of it. They claim ownership over everything, and because they employ the cops and the army they prevent you from doing anything with "their" property.
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Lets start with one rich person. Bill Gates.
Now, the company he build does lots of not nice things. But it also works extremely hard to build a computer operating system that serves the needs of the people.
Lets take a less rich person. A random hollywood star. They spend their lives working on movies whose purpose is to entertain the masses.
Even people who just trade money generate information that makes the economy run smoother.
There are flaws. You can make money in a way that fucks everyone. But, they aren't all that common. Usually they involve things like pollution and the like. (meme: corperations are externalizing machines)
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Rich people exist to take your money, not to give you anything.
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I suspect your problem is you don't understand the mathematics of a well designed market capitalist economy.
And the west has reasonably well designed market capitalist economies.
The point of a MCE is that the easiest and best way to advance your own self interest is to benefit everyone else. How do you get rich? You provide something that many people want.
Even people who just live off investments are doing that, in a small way. Their capital is deferred consumption -- resources that someone had managed to get, and decided they'd rather invest. Those investments generate wealth, and generate things that people want.
There are times it breaks down. But I'd be surprised if our MCE was more than an order of magnatude off the ideal.
Market Capitalism and Democracy are wonderful tricks to pull on the 'powerful'.
They both subvert the will to power, and turn it into something somewhat benefitial to the masses. MCE makes the easiest way to wealth be making everyone else better off. Democracy makes the easiest way to social power finding out what is best for people, and telling them you'll do it.
It's a wonderful judo trick. It isn't perfect -- and, to me, your complaints look like someone spotting a crack in a window, and then saying 'the draft coming in is so bad, there might as well not be a window!'
Neither are perfect. Anti-trust laws exist for this reason. Freedom of Information acts to prevent corruption. Checks and balances galore.
I don't
trust the government. I use it. I don't
trust the motivations of the rich. I use them.
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Originally Posted by flstf
You say I have no rights over the house I was born in and given to me by my parents. I guess they were under the false impression that they owned it (and the land) to give. But if I refuse to pay tribute (property taxes) to the current polititians in power, they will take it from me, kick me out and auction it off. So I guess you are right even though I think I have every right to stay here they don't unless I pay them what they want this year.
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No, I said you have no rights over it. Possibly your parents have limited rights over it, as given to them by the person they got it from. And possibly they'll give it to you.
Those limited rights could include the requirement that you pay property tax for the sundry services provided.
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Originally Posted by flstf
I have to eat so if I grow crops on my land and sell what I don't eat I have to pay tribute or they will throw me in jail. They will only let me keep a portion of what my labor has wrought. I feel like a sharecropper which is just about like slavery.
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"Just about" isn't equality. And feels like just about has enough if, ands and buts to fill a south park genetics lab.
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Originally Posted by flstf
You say I have to justify my existence but why? My existence is justified by the fact I was born. I am not asking for anything from the ruling class but they are asking plenty from me and threatening to imprison me if I don't comply. Why can't they just leave me be to live in peace instead of forcing me to work for them? They have the same approximate physical makeup as me, let them work for themselves.
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Because you take resources. Your existence isn't free.
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Originally Posted by flstf
Even if I wished to pay a share of the road cost the corrupt polititians have rigged the costs to be hundreds of times higher because of all the kickbacks and nepotism involved.
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I think you massively misunderstand the level of corruption in modern western society.
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Originally Posted by flstf
If the overpriced road wasn't in my way my neighbors and I would get togather and build our own when we had time. Besides it was here long before I was born and had no say in it.
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You where born. There where roads. All that was built was there. Much of it makes your life easier.
You want to use the net profits of human civilization, possibly. They come with a debt.
If you want to live without the net profits of human civilization, tough nuts. Human civilization is nearly everywhere. Pay your way outside of it -- there are still a few areas. I suspect you'd die very shortly.