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No Children

Discussion in 'Tilted Life and Sexuality' started by Mysugarcane, Aug 27, 2012.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    That's really my wider point: Happiness isn't dependent on children.

    I haven't really gotten the "persecution" for being childfree, but I often have had to field questions about when (not if) the children are coming. I suppose our differences in perspective might be influenced by the feeling I get when considering how I fit into society. I get the feeling that many view having children as a foundation of society, and not having children is somehow letting society down or is otherwise viewed as not pulling one's weight (the selfishness of the voluntarily childless!). It is assumed by many (thankfully not too many in my immediate circles) that having children is one's natural progression in life. It's as expected as eating, breathing, sleeping, having a job, having a home, and having sex. The failure (whether intentionally or no) to have children is then viewed as some kind of defect. I guess you're right in that it is kind of parallel to being atheist or intentionally single. After all, what kind of human can you be in not accepting Christ and a spouse?

    All of these things I view as aspects of attachment. They are all good, if they remain good, but often they can turn sour. This is rooted in the fact that we become emotionally and philosophically attached to these things. We expect the pleasure we get from these things, and we fear the displeasing things, but it's only in accepting that both pleasure and displeasure is a fact of life in all areas that we realize there is no "need" for children, religion, or a spouse.

    This is not to deny there is a need for loving relationships, but that is another story.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
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  2. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member



    I kind of chuckle at this comment because I'm one of those people.

    Which direction were you going with that comment?

    That people whose dogs have crazy spoiled lives are unknowingly replacing a child with it?
     
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  3. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Imagine that: Caring for an emotionally sensitive creature such as a dog. Imagine that: The both of you getting happiness from your relationship.

    I do draw the line at treating dogs like humans. Dogs need to be treated like dogs in order for them to be happy.
     
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  4. Stan

    Stan Resident Dumbass

    Location:
    Colorado
    My daughter's might argue that Molly gets treated better than they do. Unlike my kids, I cover her heathcare, recreation, and food.

    Both of my daughters are proof that birth control isn't 100%. While they weren't planned, we tried to screw up as little as possible. At this point, we are childless again, with a couple of adults that we are pretty fond of. Zero "empty nest syndrome" in our household, my wife was redecorating our youngest daughter's bedroom as she was moving out. :rolleyes:

    Decisions don't get much more personal than the choice to reproduce. I can't imagine life without my daughters; but I'm sure it would have been just fine.
     
  5. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Expecting your kids to be subordinate will fuck them up, too. People don't have any goddamned balance. That's a persistent parenting challenge for a lot of people. Not being a pussy (per se) and not being a dick.

    Plus, too many people are self-loathing. They hate or are ashamed of the things that they did when they were children therefore they place unrealistic expectations on their own kids as if human development were a rational, discrete sequence of events that can be controlled if you just tell your kids the right stories, give them the right warnings, make them fear the right consequences. As smart as we are we've yet to figure out two simple things: chaos happens and rebellion is developmentally rational. If you're not prepared to deal with those consequences it's probably another reason why not to have children. You're gonna fuck them up.

    Getting off course, I guess. I have to go to work.
     
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  6. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member


    Yes.

    Here are the categories developmental psychology/human development people break parenting styles down into, according to Baumrind (1967, 1987) and Maccoby and Martin (1983):
    1. Authoritative
    2. Authoritarian
    3. Permissive
    4. Traditional
    5. Indulgent
    6. Indifferent

    There are three factors that go into determining a parenting style: the level of parental support (responsiveness), the level of parental control (demandingness), and expectations of maturity. The parenting style associated with the most positive outcomes is authoritative parenting; in this style, parents have a high level of support for their child, but they also have moderate strictness to go along with it. Their expectations of maturity are moderate but reasonable, and typically in line with what's developmentally appropriate for their child.

    The other parenting styles have less positive outcomes associated with them, and while I could write a whole paper on it right here and now (I've got like three books in front of me at the moment, no joke), I won't. Anyway, authoritarian parents have a low level of support, a high level of control (to the point they may rely on corporal punishment), and high expectations of maturity; permissive parents have a high level of support but absent control and low expectations of maturity; traditional parents (this term came about to reflect the influx of people from communal cultures, mostly Asian, in the late 70s and 80s) have a high level of support and are considered strict, they have high expectations of maturity; indulgent parents (similar to permissives) have high support, rare control, and low expectations of maturity; indifferent parents score low across the board and basically show their children that they don't care about their well-being in any way, shape, or form.

    As you can see, the authoritative style balances the three indicators of parental functioning fairly well. But yes, it is difficult; it's the kind of behavior control I have to engage in when working with small children one-on-one. Quite frankly, it can be exhausting.
     
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  7. Fangirl

    Fangirl Very Tilted

    Location:
    Arizona
    I skipped a bunch of posts so if this observation has been made...oh well.
    I have kids. Both were unplanned. 'Unplanning' can be stupid because of the all-consuming, expensive task of raising children up properly.

    I don't romanticize parenthood. Both kid #1 and me went through the ringer when he was very young and again, from age 12 through adult. I learned a lot about how to cope with really fucked-up situations and I learned about being at my wit's end. I did without--a lot of without--but I never resented that because it was my choice not to abort. My choice and the consequences were mine and his. Why should he have borne the consequences any more than what life brought his way?
    And now, the unthinkable has happened and we are estranged. And that is OK, too. Like the old, tired but true, phrase says, you don't pick your family. It was his choice to dump us (me, really--no relationship with any other family members now that his grandmother is dead--again, his choice).

    I was 10 years older when unplanned kid #2 came along. I had already had one abortion due to marital rape (child #1's father) and though it was going to be hard--I was in grad school and finances were tight, I was in a committed relationship and we could afford to raise him. I won't wax on about him but he's pretty cool. I would have loved to have had a daughter but it wasn't in the cards when adhering to the practice of zero population growth. We made sure of that via vasectomy upon the successful birth of child #2.

    My observation about the child-free couple I know best is that they've never learned to sacrifice, to unselfishly give of their time and finances for another person the way you just do for your kid. It is my only sibling of which I speak and I love him and my sil to bits and yet in some ways, to me, they've never grown up, because maybe, they have never had to?

    I really enjoy child #2. He's way smarter than his dad or me. Unconventional. Reads all the freaking time, huge gamer. I would not have a relationship like this with a man his age if I hadn't birthed him. I wouldn't be able to relate to a lot of you if I hadn't had both my kids because you learn their language.
    On the whole, I've gotten way more back from having children than what I could have had.
    But this is what my life was like. Diversity is fantastic. Freedom of choice is awesome. No one pressured me to have or not have kids. I'd not dream of doing it to another. And judging? Judge not lest ye be, no?
     
  8. GeneticShift

    GeneticShift Show me your everything is okay face.

    I think that's an extremely unfair observation based on one experience. While it's true that I will probably never have to sacrifice for a child, that doesn't mean that I have never or will never learn to sacrifice due to not having a child. I accept the fact that I am relatively young and privileged, and most of my sacrifices are different, but that in no way insinuates that I will "never grow up".

    In my opinion, the decision to be childfree can be the ultimate sacrifice.
    Wanting children and deciding not to due to financial status or lack of resources is an extremely "grown up" and responsible decision.
    Deciding to be childree due to not wanting children is also incredibly unselfish. Why have a child if you know in your heart you can't give them the life that a child deserves?
     
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  9. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    It is, and sometimes it makes me goggle at people when they ask me about having children. Like, have you looked at our economic situation? We're both finishing school and we don't have careers yet. Sure, let's just pop out a couple of crotchmonsters. "People do it! They manage!" I'm SURE people do it, that doesn't make it responsible or a good decision for me.
     
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  10. DamnitAll

    DamnitAll Wait... what?

    Location:
    Central MD
    Indeed, the fundamental and most significant reasons behind my decision not to have children, in my mind, have always been unselfish:
    ...as much as some might question my judgment and priorities.

    Calling the only childfree relationship with which you have firsthand familiarity one in which its members "have never learned to sacrifice, have never had to grow up, etc." seems somewhat judgmental in and of itself, in my opinion. Just an observation.

    On the flip side are the many, many couples with children that have sacrificed nothing at all for their kids; for these, becoming a parent has nothing at all to do with learning to sacrifice or growing up.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
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  11. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member



    This is something my wife often says, and while it isn't one of the main reason we don't have children, it is something we think about too.




    Here's my take on the "selfish" comments:

    If you don't have kids because you don't want to invest the time, energy, finances, and emotions into properly raising them, I say that is not selfish at all, that is prioritizing your life. Your life, your choices.

    If you DO have kids, but don't invest the time, energy, finances, and emotions into properly raising them, then you ARE selfish. Because children need and deserve that total commitment.

    Can child free people be selfish? Absolutely. Is it the decision not to have children that makes them selfish. I'd argue absolutely not.
     
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  12. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
    I'd be selfish to not have kids during a zombie apocalypse, sure... but right now?

    I really think we've got the whole human population clown car thing covered. Muslims, Mormons, etc.

    I mean, if it was like 1776 and I was a typical landowner, I would have been laying that pipe like my middle name was Bangalore.
     
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  13. Herculite

    Herculite Very Tilted

    The world is less fucked up than it ever has been.
    The "overpopulation" is a myth in the West at least. Our populations are generally shrinking and have been for a while.

    In the long run this problem will sort itself out, genetics being what it is. I do find it sad so many people think they would be bad parents, the fact you are thinking that most likely means you would be good parents unless you are totally fucked up. Parenting is not all that difficult. Like everything in life you can read the horror stories and use that to convince yourself its not for you, but if you did that in all things you wouldn't even take an aspirin.

    My guess is this trend for childlessness is due to just how good we have it over all, and birth control. In the past, maybe you weren't not sure if you wanted children but sooner or later mistakes get made birth control wise. Only recently would these become major selective traits. Added with the "global village" our brains are simply not evolved for, it gives an outlook on life and the future which wouldn't have happened 100 years ago.

    I honestly do feel sorry for you all who choose not to, I can't think of any activity that would be worth, in retrospect, not having children for.
     
  14. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    It's frustrating to see people backed into a corner where they have to defend themselves from unfair characterizations. Also frustrating to see them go on the offensive.

    It's not selfish to choose not to have babies.
    It's not selfish to choose to have them, either. Even in this world. Even if you're not rich.

    There seem to be a lot of misconceptions all around. I really don't get. Maybe because I've seen it done both ways. I'm a parent, but my older sister never married, never had kids and is completely happy. And not selfish or immature at all, she's a teacher. And not all that different from me in lifestyle and values. It doesn't matter whether you have kids or not. You're still going to be the same person. Maybe that's hard for people to believe? I'm just kind of flummoxed by people's attitudes.
     
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  15. Borla

    Borla Moderator Staff Member

    I for one don't need anyone to feel sorry for me for the choices I make of my own free will, I sure don't. @Plan9 is in preproduction on the Hallmark story of my life. It's actually pretty good and pretty rewarding IMO. Am I choosing some rewards over others? Sure. But if you want to feel sorry, feel sorry for the people who want kids and can't have them. Or feel sorry for the kids who have parents that don't want kids. Those are the people who deserve sympathy.

    I also don't think I'd be a bad parent. I think I'd be an awesome parent. In large part because I had awesome parents to show me how its done, and some of my friends are awesome parents. Also because I actually do view it as a huge responsibility and an important job, and I think I'd carry it out as such.
     
  16. DamnitAll

    DamnitAll Wait... what?

    Location:
    Central MD
    I still don't like what humanity has done to the world, overpopulated or no, and I'm not contributing to it.

    End of story.
     
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  17. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    It's only a myth when you account for the fact that the world population could double and be better for it if we all lived like most Chileans, Brazilians, Argentineans, or several other South American people (many African and Asian people too).

    A baby born in the U.S. will have a far higher lifetime impact than a baby born in any of those regions.

    Don't worry too much.

    We'll be okay.
     
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  18. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    Is that an implication that life ain't worth living without children?
     
  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    He seems to mean: having children > everything else.
     
  20. mixedmedia

    mixedmedia ...

    Location:
    Florida
    It's just one thing.
     
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