On speaking for the dead

First off I feel like I should say three things.

1,
Sometimes I post things on here that I only half mean. This isnt one of those times. I personally feel like some people on here see me post and come straight in and try to wind me up. This isnt the best time to do that, or debate if I am just being paranoid and talking shit or not. I cant say what you ought to do, but on a human level I am asking you to take this straight up.

2,
When I say "speaking for the dead" I know I referencing a book. I read this book called "the speaker for the dead" and I didnt like it much, but the last month or so that phrase has just been sticking and sticking in my head.

3,
People who have been on here a long time and have long memories may remember some stuff ive spoken of. I will say:
a) I was taken into care (in US does this mean "group home") for a few months when I was a teenager.
b) Both of my parents made mistakes, and were also both human beings. Neither of them were evil, they were not sexual perverts, they were3 not fundamentally bad people. I was not the easiest personality to relate to until about age 22/23.

_

So as some people know my mum died in Feb of this year.

She was diabetic, she was on anti depressants, she had a heart condition and she still smoked.

She died 1 day after being released from hospital after having a stent fitted and she was 53.

There are some things that dont add up in the report by the coroner, and we have been given an inquest to try and clear things up. I have been elected to be the "speaker" for the family. In a business context I feel very comfortable to stand in front of MD's and CEO's and say what I think, correct them if I think they are wrong, etc. I give presentations to to the floor staff in my company (20/30 people) every month and I dont get nervous.

But I have been feeling nervous about the inquest.

I feel like I dont want to let my mum down. I think I can be assertive, and when I know my facts (in my job I do) I can relentless and quite aggressive. But when it comes to heart surgery I dont know my facts. When I stand in front of a the CEO or MD of a company and I talk about how a POS works and how it handles my companies cards, I KNOW what Im talking about and I dont feel any nerves, But if the surgeon starts throwing medical jargon at me, and I challenge him, and he comes back with more stuff I dont understand... will I look like an idiot?

Both my father and my sister have more "punchy" personalities than me. They both want me to speak at the inquest, and I think thats because they know that I will ask the questions in a calmer was than they can, and that I speak better than them (and I speak better than I write before someone takes the piss on that)... but one of things I am really scared of is that at the end of it my Dad or Sister thinks I havent pushed hard enough, that I have been too lightweight and get rolled over. If I was in a meeting at work I would never have these kind of doubts, but I do with this.

And like I said, I dont want to let my mum down. I dont necessarily believe that she is going to be literally watching the inquest and judging how I do, but I feel a responsibility to speak for her. I feel like she was talked/bullied into being discharged the day after her op, and if she was kept in hospital one more day she wouldnt have died, and I dont want to be spoken over in the same way. On the one side I feel like I wouldnt allow that, I know even if I can be sometimes clumsy in how I talk I am not stupid and I am not timid. On the other hand I am nervous that I am completely out of my depth and I do just get brushed aside.

I have six questions I want to ask in the inquest. I am sure of them, and I understand them. But I am not a doctor, and the coroner is. The coroner and the hospital staff could just talk above me and my technical knowledge.

_

I guess this is a long ramble, and why I posted it was to ask - has anyone else been through something like this?

Does anyone else have anything they can advise on how to hold the balance between my natural demeanor (and in real life - and not when we are talking about bears or dogs - I think I would describe myself as "calm but relentless") and the fact that both my dad and my sister want me to be more aggressive and more attacking in how I ask the questions.

 

I think it is quite admirable of you to feel as you do.

I can only wish you the best never having been though such an ordeal.

 

Do you know a cardiologist you could speak with about this to help you assess and present the facts you have? Perhaps you have a friend in the NHS who could hook you up?

In my experience, facts tend to overcome a lack of confidence. If you could bring what records, radiology, reports, lab results, etc you have to someone independent for an evaluation, it might help you.

By the way, please accept my sympathies for your loss.

 

Its not going to be like you fear hun. You have built this up to like The Ashes, but its more like village cricket. It is gentle. The coronor is the one who is there for your mum, one of my terminal friends said to me 'he is the last man who will treat you with kindness' - and he has lost many of his hospital friends, coronors inquests is a more likely topic of conversation between the dying than the living. I believe questions are directed, and statements read, and the person who gave the statement maybe asked to confirm or clarify, at least that has been my experience.
Might I suggest, most hospices have trained counselors, and this must be a topic they cover in training and in life experience. They will not mind a lost child asking for directions. Please consider calling one.
Also, NHS Direct can give you ball park advice, have someone call you and try to clarify things for you, a nurse experienced in that field.
After my Tims inquest, I went to the pub with his ma and his sister, and we raised a silent glass. He would have liked that, to see us chatting and supporting each other, beer in hand. The people who had been asked to give evidence were those that had been last to see him, and his landlord had explained how the rest of them had fled the burning house.
Take care, and no, your mum will not think you have let her down. If she can hear the proceedings, she is more likely to be wishing she had been stronger and had not put this unbearable weight upon you all. That old hindsight thing.

 

When those guys throw terms you don't know around and are making you look stupid, fix them with a masterful stare to erode their confidence and win the discussion.

 

I'm guessing you have read http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/burials-and-coroners/guide-charter-coroner.pdf

"An inquest is a limited, fact-finding inquiry to establish who has died, and how, when and where the death occurred. An inquest does not establish any matter of liability or blame."

So don't expect all of your questions to be answered, but if a technical term is used that you don't understand you are entitled to an explanation.

 

Don't let them talk down to you, if they try. If something they say doesn't make sense or if they start using overly technical terms, ask them to explain more simply, over and over again until it makes sense. Take breaks to talk it over with the family, so that you're all on the same level of understanding. And, if the outcome doesn't satisfy, appeal.

I don't share your opinion on Speaker For The Dead, but I do share your love of family. Best wishes.

 

THIS


Hi, SF. There's three of many elements involved here
1: You want the truth
2: Do the best for your mother
3: Not have the family slagging you off for being too soft.

I'll concentrate on number 3. THEY chose YOU ... asked you because you're the one they say who can do the calm stuff. But they'll be the ones who'll come down on you for not being hard enough if the outcomes don't satisfy them.

You GOTTA head that one off at the pass.

grumpyolddude firmly hits that nail.

Furthermore, THEIR understanding or lack of it becomes the criterion as to whether you demand the professionals' explanation to be simplified.

Think of this as a hard-wired flow-chart, that will solve most of what you're askingin this thread.



You've said that when you've got FACTS that you understand, THEN you've got the precise confidence you need in order to relate effectively with anybody ... CEOs.

Therefore, when you, SF COMMIT NOW .... NOW, that you'll ask for repetitions of simplifications UNTIL you understand, and can PROVE it by being able to explain it to your other family members in ways THEY understand ....
When you COMMIT NOW all this ... you can know now that any lack of confidence will be about your 'need to know more simply' - that sense of lack of confidence lack of confidence will simply mean "Please repeat more simply".

Being able to do that with that old sense of lack of confidence means that you can have ALL your usual sense of Great Confidence.
the only change is that you'll seek to stop 'game-time' for clarification whenever you need.

AND your other relatives will be part of the process and outcome to an extent that they shall NOT be able to whine at you later.

SF .... read this again in order to mercilessly check my reasoning ....

AND if there are any bits that you feel need clarification .....

INSIST that I clarify.




PS:
"seek to stop 'game-time' for clarification whenever you need."
I said SEEK to stop 'game time'.

I've never been to an inquest, and therefore don't know the procedure, or what kind of 'presiding' process decisions get made or how.
From my experience of boardrooms, I'm familiar with a Chairpersons' strategy of 'pushing things through' or rushing things through by using real or imagined/manufactured Time Pressuee as leverage. I will assume that you know how to handle that in the companies you've presented at, and urge you to have that resource, as well as your others, available at the meeting.


This is just one small segment of what you're needing to consider and become great at handling.
Other segments are outside of my sense of confidence to have 2penn'orth.
I wish you All The Very Best

And whatever the outcome of the inquest, and whatever your sense of satisfaction or dis-satisfaction with it when the time comes ...
I read your motivation in your first post, and judge that whilst you'll need to keep your nose clean and your wits sharp so's not to be scapegoated by the living, you're coming from that place that UFC MMA as commentated by Joe Rogan calls 'HEART'.
IMO, THAT is the biggest 'win', and you've achieved that now. Much respect to you.

 

First of all thanks for comments.

I didn't come back and write about the inquest straight away, because my feelings changed a bit as it all sunk in.

_

The process was a lot more emotionally draining than I expected. We were watching video's of the procedure that my mum had the day before she died on a big screen in the court room. And the doctor who did the autopsy had the most terrible "bedside manner" he a was talking about "I picked the lungs up and squeezed them and fluid was oozing out" and things like that 3 or 4 times which was kind of difficult to hear, when its your mum and your hearing someone talk about her like a piece of meat being butchered.

I found the coroner very gentle, very sensitive, and quite patronising (literally 5 times he said things like "oh, thats an excellent question", "this a very intellient and articulate family" etc... and obviously if he did think I was intelligent he wouldn't have been laying it on so thick, but I guess he meant well)

I came away quite disappointed that there were a couple of key questions about things that my mum had told my sister weren't answered fully and also some discrepancies about why she was released later in the day when she had a severe headache and high blood pressure) - but it just came down to the hospital said one thing and the things my mum told my sister were second hand and she wasnt there to answer for it...

The actual "in camera" inquest was only about 30 minutes, but we had a five hour "pre inquest meeting" before hand when the coroner just basically let me ask all my questions and he would chip in to clarify things and re-state the answers.

The main thing that couldnt be established was the actual cause of death, and because of that and I guess because I kept going on about the things that hadnt been answered the coroner gave a narrative verdict rather than just "natural causes" - when he just said she died of severe coronary artery disease as a result of diabetes AFTER a stenting procedure (because there was no proof that there was a direct causal link but she died one day afterwards in a way that couldnt be proven... although they speculated it was a "disturbance in the rhythm of the heart" which combined with the physical and emotional stress of the procedure and the existing chronic illnesses was too much.

_

Right after the day I just felt drained and battered, and upset that we came away still not knowing why she died.

But after a few days I started to think that we did now know a lot of things she didnt die of. The heart surgeon that did the op didnt come accross at all as either careless or stupid. He knew his stuff, and he seemed to answer everything honestly. It came over that he was passionate about what he did, that he was up to date with all of the latest theories in it, that he understood it, and that he really had searched himself honestly about what had gone wrong.

My mum was in a bad way healthwise and she didnt live a very healthy life. They didnt say it in these kind of words, but it sort of came over that they all felt "she was really not very well, and this is just one of those things that happens when someone has a really bad circulation system"

My sister and my dad both had the impression that she had been treated badly by a health system that was incompetent and didnt care. And I saw a man who was competent and clearly did care. All of the most obvious risks he did check for before she was released. In retrospect obviously she shouldnt have been sent home later in the day. And at the time I still think they shouldnt have, but they did a lot of tests before they did.

_

I pissed off my dad by shaking the heart surgeons hand when the court session had ended and we were all filing out. I guess in that sense I didnt do the best job of keeping everyone happy, but I felt like my first duty was to my mum. If i had just let things drop I wouldnt have been doing my best for her, but I also didnt feel like taking some position of irrational position of hostility and trying to cast blame where in my own heart i didnt feel it was wasnt doing my best for her either.

I just felt that he had had a hard time (being sat on a stand for 4 hours being bombarded by questions about someone who ultimately died under his watch)... I respected him for being honest and answering as best as he could. He's a human being also and even thought its his job it must haunt him a bit when someone he operates on dies even though he must know statistically some people do. I didnt want him to walk out the room feeling like I blamed him for it, and so I shook his hand.

Maybe I should have thought more for my dad's feelings than someone I dont know and wont meet again, I dont know.

_

Im thinking most of this wont make any sense given that nobody its addressed to actually knows the context that my mum died, but I cant really find a way to talk about it other than just a stream of thoughts like this.

Sitting in the pub straight after court I felt bad - partly because of how calm I had been (and always am) - my dad and sister were fighting back tears or getting angry, and I was just calm and asking my questions and just going on until I either understood or understood for sure they couldnt or wouldnt answer it... and I dont know if its that I just dont care as much as normal people, or because I can talk and describe how I feel more than most people I dont show signs like crying or shouting, etc. And also just felt bad that after it all we still didnt really know why she had died, just that all of the obvious causes had been ruled out.

But after time I have started to draw comfort from that fact that she was cared for, she was in the hands of someone who knew their work and did their best. I think its worth something.

 

Strange Famous even though you didn't get all the answers you were hoping for I hope you got enough to help you find closure and peace.

 

Sounds like you thought more for the truth, than for an hostility-bash, treated the inquest as an inquest and gave respect to the surgeon who did so too, rather than engaging in professional defensive-bash.

I believe you have done more for your father's long term feelings than any soap-operatic agonizing would have.
_

Please DO know that you don't NOT care as much. As you moe fully realise that it is the very STRNGTH of your care that over-rode the tears etc. NOTHING was going to get in your way of demanding the very best information you could. You've done her proud. You've done her Proud.

At some pint, bro', tears may come or they may not, or half a sniffle that may be tearful, or may just be high pollen count.

It doesn't matter.
You've done her proud.
That she may truly Rest In Peace.

All Respect to you

 

Sounds like you did well. Sounds like the doctor tried his best - sadly, they cant win them all, and the patient has a responsibility to look after themselves too. Very sad. You have done more than your bit, so you hold your head up - you fought your mums last battle for her with dignity - your dad wont see clearly through his own grief.

 

you can drive yourself crazy with "coulda woulda shoulda"'s and hindsight. the truth is there's no way of knowing how things would have turned out. keeping her in the hospital might not have changed a thing. if you look at the universe and time and space and then see how short a time we have to live in it with our skins and identities, it doesn't seem like enough time to even show up as a blip on a radar in the scheme of things. i'm 38 and i feel like i've already had a great life and at this point if i died tomorrow and i was still conscious somehow after death i'd feel like a had a great run and made the most of it.

and i would echo the sentiment to give yourself a break when it comes how both your mom and dad might feel about you. just keep in mind that no matter how you handle a situation and how they feel about how you handled it, that you are their son and they love you very much. from there you have to be your own person and listen to your own instincts when it comes to situations like this. THAT will minimize any possible regrets when you have some time and perspective as you move through your own life.

 

I think you've handled this throughout with a level of caring and thoughtful consideration that I would like to believe I could maintain, in similar circumstances.

Rather than attempt to assuage your grief by placing (or misplacing) blame, you sought to find the Truth of what happened and the Intent of those who cared for her. Though the Truth may not be entirely known to anyone, I think you've ascertained that there was no ill-intent on the part of the medical staff. If the rest of your family prefers to harbor the need to "blame" someone, that's up to them. I don't think it does them any good but we all handle grief differently.

You at least, can move on now and hopefully be there to support and comfort your family in their attempts to do the same.