1. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

Facebook Photos & Business Ethics, Or: I could use some help...

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by retrogunslinger, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. retrogunslinger

    retrogunslinger Vertical

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    I'm sure there are a few business or law folks on the board, so I have some questions.

    Backstory: I'm part of the local Rocky Horror shadowcast. We're a non-profit organization. Recently we left one theater (Theater A) to perform at another (Theater B). Now, I personally didn't like this idea and was the only one against it, on account of our group directors not informing Theater A that we were leaving in roughly two months. Long story short, we left the theater and there were no legal repercussions because no contract was ever signed. Theater A attempted to charge us storage costs from months back for keeping our equipment, but a lawyer in our group called bullshit and we got our things back in time to perform at Theater B. All seemed well, even if we did unnecessarily burn a bridge on the way.

    Today I received an email from the owner of Theater A in regards to pictures on Facebook. He didn't specify if it was my personal page or the group's, but since it was my email he sent the message to I'm assuming it was mine. Here's the email:

    Now, the casual viewer wouldn't be able to tell the photos were taken at Theater A, since they're all focused on the performers. My question is this: if he allowed pictures to be taken every month we performed and even then the photos are being posted on Facebook with no commercial gain whatsoever, does he have a case? My photographer's brain says no, that because there's no commercial gain I can post them all I want, but I'm a bit paranoid and would like to know if anyone can shed some light on this topic.

    Secondly, on Theater A's Facebook page the owner has been posting that Theater A is the only theater in the area showing Rocky Horror. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially a violation of business ethics? He knows full well that we do our shows the same night at Theater B and that we are the only shadowcast in the state, so in essence he's lying to the folks who come to see the full Rocky experience (i.e. the movie and the shadowcast) in order to divert them and steal Theater B's business.

    I could ask the lawyer in our group, but I have to see him and he's rarely around.
     
    retrogunslinger, Sep 28, 2011
    #1
  2. Craven Morehead

    Craven Morehead Very Tilted

    Location:
    third rock from the sun
    You need legal opinion, that's the best advice I can give.
     
    Craven Morehead, Sep 28, 2011
    #2
  3. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    I can answer a good portion of this. First some questions to get clarification:

    Who is the photographer and who are the subjects?
    Does the photographer give you permission to post the images?
    Do the subjects of the photographs give you permission to post the images?
    In the images are there very obvious shots that show unique features of the specific theater?
    How long have you had the images posted on the Internet?
     
    cynthetiq, Sep 28, 2011
    #3
  4. retrogunslinger

    retrogunslinger Vertical

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    The photos were taken by myself and another photog on the cast over the course of the last three years, all while still under good standing with the theater and even a different owner at one point. The photos are of the cast, who of course give consent, and unless you really know the theater to a minute degree there are no clear indications as to which theater it is.
     
    retrogunslinger, Sep 29, 2011
    #4
  5. the_jazz

    the_jazz Accused old lady puncher

    I don't see how he can win a claim of intellectual property theft or whatever his reason is. He operates a public venue. Unless he's actively telling people the photography isn't allowed and enforcing it with other groups, it's going to be hard for him to claim it now. That he gave permission in the past doesn't really help his case.

    That said, you guys put yourselves into this position, and you kind of did a shitty thing. His unethical (but not illegal) behavior is a direct result of your group's unethical behavior. Neither of you did anything illegal, but you both did things that are unethical and morally wrong.
     
    the_jazz, Sep 29, 2011
    #5
    • Like Like x 1
  6. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    Take time to get a model release for the new location. This is a simple one and there are more robust and complex ones out there.
    l
    MODEL RELEASE

    In exchange for consideration received, I hereby give permission to [ your name here ] to use my name and photographic likeness in all forms and media for advertising, trade, and any other lawful purposes.
    Print Name:
    Signature:
    Date:
    If Model is under 18:
    I, , am the parent/legal guardian of the individual named above, I have read this release and approve of its terms.
    Print Name:
    Signature:
    Date:


    Read more at New York Institute of Photography - Model Release Form - A Basic Model Release Form for Use in Photography Sessions and Photo Shoots http://www.nyip.com/ezine/techtips/model-release.html#ixzz1ZLYLTrwN
    That is correct. If he has nothing stating "No cameras, No photography," He has a very weak leg to stand on. It gets weaker if the photos existed and he is now revoking rights. One cannot revoke rights like this normally. From a sample location contract:

    location agreement:
    All rights of every kind in and to all photographs and sound records made hereunder (including but not limited to the right to exhibit any and all scenes photographed or recorded at and of the Property or reproduction of the Property throughout the world) shall be and remain vested in Company, its successors, assigns and licensees, and neither the owner nor any tenant, or other party now or hereafter having an interest in the Property, shall have any right of action against Company or any other party arising out of any use of said photographs and/or sound recordings whether or not such use is or may be claimed to be defamatory, untrue, or censurable in nature and hereby waives any and all rights of privacy, publicity, or any other rights of a similar nature in connection with the exploitation of any such photography or soundtrack.​

    So you can see in the sample above if you had a contract about the location to perform you still own the photographs and works that are derived from there. If he did not have any contract, he doesn't have much to say except act nicely.

    Models on the other hand, can easily revoke their right unless you make your model release state you own and control the rights 100% once they sign the release as they give permission forever to their likeness. They have to send you a letter revoking that permission.

    You could easily cover your photos via creative commons, but that still doesn't address the model release because lets say one of the actors decides to get a job where they are embarassed of the photos, they can ask for them to be taken down, again revoking their permission.

    Aside from the dick moves that people are doing here, there is nothing gray about the laws that are being tossed about. Ethics would be nice, but so would sunny days and rainbows every day.

    I'd tell theater A to blow chunks.
     
    cynthetiq, Sep 29, 2011
    #6
    • Like Like x 1
  7. retrogunslinger

    retrogunslinger Vertical

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    I figured as much. And believe me, I know how shitty my group acted. The thing that really irks me is that I was the only person on Theater A's side at that time and actively tried to broker some sense between both, and now I'm being attacked by the guy I helped defend. It's a bit distressing.
     
    retrogunslinger, Sep 29, 2011
    #7
  8. Redlemon

    Redlemon Getting Tilted

    Location:
    New England
    How much harm would you or your group befall if you comply with the request, or how difficult would it be? Could you take enough replacement photos this weekend to make up for the lost images?
     
    Redlemon, Sep 29, 2011
    #8
  9. DUANE

    Duane formerly DKSuddeth

    i would think that with no contract signed and none put forth by anyone, nobody made any effort to legally protect any intellectual property that is theirs and the pictures are clear public domain.
     
    Duane, Sep 29, 2011
    #9
  10. cj2112

    cj2112 Slightly Tilted

    Dude is blowing smoke, he's not gonna sue you over some pics posted on fb. It's just a pissing match.
     
    cj2112, Oct 5, 2011
    #10
  11. retrogunslinger

    retrogunslinger Vertical

    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Thanks guys. I pretty much knew all this, just needed some reinforcement. Lots of stress lately.
     
    retrogunslinger, Oct 5, 2011
    #11
  12. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    No not true at all. Pictures are never clearly public domain. Ever.
     
    cynthetiq, Oct 5, 2011
    #12