1. We've had very few donations over the year. I'm going to be short soon as some personal things are keeping me from putting up the money. If you have something small to contribute it's greatly appreciated. Please put your screen name as well so that I can give you credit. Click here: Donations
    Dismiss Notice

Education costs and student debt: a crisis or simply discontent?

Discussion in 'Tilted Philosophy, Politics, and Economics' started by Baraka_Guru, May 16, 2012.

  1. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm not sure if this is making news where you are, but there are long-term, widespread, and disruptive protests ongoing in Quebec among post-secondary students. I say I'm not sure because even in Canada there is a strong sense of disregard concerning a) the seriousness of the issue, and b) its legitimacy.​
    Many would write the students off as "extremists" (though a small proportion are, admittedly) or "spoiled" (Quebec has relatively low tuition in Canada, admittedly). But these criticisms/indifference miss the mark when you realize the bigger picture.​
    First, some background from Wikipedia:​
    The 2012 Quebec student protests are a series of ongoing class boycotts and student demonstrations led by Quebec students' associations, students, and their supporters against the 2012-2017 rise in university tuition fees advocated by the Charest government. The class boycott officially got under way on February 13, 2012, and, as of March 26, 2012, involved 193,000 students and 171 student associations. On March 22, 2012, in Montreal, a large march took place, with the demonstration organisers estimating that 200,000 people took part.​
    [...]​
    University tuition fees in Quebec were frozen at $540 per year from 1968 to 1990. In 1994, tuition rose to $1668 per year, after which it was frozen until 2007, when it grew by $100 per year until 2012, making it $2168. Overall, tuition increased 300% between 1989 and 2012, not including other fees that are paid to universities (e.g. administration fees, student service fees, etc.).​
    [...] Only a third of OECD countries have tuition rates higher than $1500 USD.​
    It would seem that much of the criticism comes easily from established baby boomers who not only received their post-secondary education at a fraction of the current cost (in real terms) but also had the benefit of a much more favourable job market. So much has changed in a generation. I think these protests underscore the deep divide and disconnect that exists, and it is just now boiling over.​
    What's more, it looks as though things might get a bit hairy: Quebec gets ready to play hardball with student protesters - The Globe and Mail
    What's interesting is that this seems relatively contained. It's only happening here in Quebec. Surely they are not unique with regard to their financial situation as students. Evidence points to a wider problem that too could reach crisis levels:​
    It's crazy-expensive and getting more so every year while middle-class incomes stagnate or worse. As states cut back on support, families are having to pick up the tab. This has sent student debt skyrocketing past $1 trillion. The share of students taking out loans to attend public college has increased from 42% in 1992 to 93% in 2008. Thirty years ago, one in 100 students at nonprofit private colleges took on more than $50,000 in debt. Today, it's one in seven.​
    • What do you think?
    • Will this crisis boil over provincial and national borders? Is it a crisis?
    • Do you sympathize with the students, or do you view this as a basic reality?
    • Is Obama right in seeking to alleviate the cost of education?
    • Should Canada do more on a federal level to help?
    • Should schools be held accountable for their costs?
    • What do you see as the biggest risks to high education costs?
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2012
  2. Bodkin van Horn

    Bodkin van Horn One of the Four Horsewomyn of the Fempocalypse

    I think the whole system is fucked from a finance perspective.

    First, anyone with a pulse can get a loan, which means that schools have zero incentive to not raise tuition every year. The president of my alma mater was bragging about "holding the line" on tuition last week because he only proposed a 3.5% increase for next year. He makes something like $600,000 a year to pose for pictures, because as far as I can tell, PR seems to be his main responsibility.

    The US Government, which can issue debt at around 2%, hands out loans at interest rates substantially higher than that, so it has no incentive to change the system.

    The simplistic response is to blame the students, but whatever. These kids have been told their whole lives that college is the only way to get ahead in the world, and that regardless of how much college costs, it's worth it. These are kids, by the way. 17 or 18 years old. Can't buy alcohol. Can agree to decades of crushing debt.

    It isn't just the english majors either. My undergrad was in mechanical engineering. When I graduated, the starting wage for my degree had just dropped about $10,000 and people with experience were taking all the jobs that normally went to new grads. So, despite having a "money" degree, I couldn't get a job in my field. Because I was lucky, I was able to find a job doing something tangentially related to my degree that enabled me to help feed my family, but it wasn't near what I'd been promised by the assholes in the career counseling office.

    A lot of the other folks in my class decided to go on to grad school instead of work because jobs didn't exist. I worked for a year and went back to school, and I'm about 7 days from being done with the second time around. I've doubled my debt load, but unlike mechanical engineering, my current field, statistics, is a fairly good field to be in right now. If I continue to be lucky, I will be in a position to repay my loans in a fairly timely manner (you know, 10 or 20 years from now).

    I think schools should be held accountable for the number of their students who default. Or, at least they should have to pay into a fund used to fund debt relief for students who have a good excuse for being unable to pay off their loans on schedule in order to qualify for federal financial aid.

    We need a system that lets talented people go to school and doesn't crush people for taking the risk of going to college and losing.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. martian

    martian Server Monkey Staff Member

    Location:
    Mars
    There are indicators that the protests may move into Ontario. I certainly wouldn't blame the students; college debts are unreal.

    I never went to college, and was fortunate enough that I managed to land on a good career path despite that. I'm grateful that in my case I didn't have to take on thousands of dollars of debt to get ahead, but I also believe that I'm the exception instead of the rule.

    Recent studies have shown that higher education impacts nearly every facet of life, even for people with 'soft' degrees. In general, a greater degree of education leads to better health, and better social mobility. Education ultimately helps people make better choices about their lifestyle and moral outlook, which ultimately leads to a more prosperous society.

    We should be doing everything in our power to make college education more accessible. Instead we seem to be going in the opposite direction.
     
  4. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    So now that we found all this gas & oil in the North Central & West states.
    Can we all have a free secondary eduction like some of the Middle Eastern countries???
    PLEASE...pretty please with a cherry on top.

    Wait a minute...we have no shmuck overly consuming outside nation like US to buy all the oil/gas and give it to the national pool.
    It all goes to corporate stock holders...while we pay for oil/gas subsidies.
    Oh, that's how it works. :rolleyes:

    Hey, I went to CA way back when...when it was $5 per credit. (CT where I started was much more expensive)
    Used their community colleges...setup a Tag program with a "name" school to finish in. Saved tons. Don't have a bill today.

    Don't know what I'm going to do to get any Masters or PhD now.
    I guess I have to make LOTS of money, so I can get more education, and make LOTS of money.

    Nah, I think I just win the Nobel Prize for my idea, win a million,
    then save that, when they give me an honorary degree for my brillance. :cool:
     
  5. Plan9

    Plan9 Rock 'n Roll

    Location:
    Earth
  6. Levite

    Levite Levitical Yet Funky

    Location:
    The Windy City
    I am deeply, deeply in favor of prioritizing, funding, and providing everyone with maximum education and minimum cost.

    In addition to believing that all schools should be very well-funded and supplied (and control of curricula and programming localized and decentralized), I actually believe that education at state schools should be free from Pre-Kindergarten through undergraduate (including costs of textbooks, room, and board); and that any citizen or legal resident of the US who gets into a properly accredited private college should qualify for grant monies equivalent to the cost of tuition at a state university, and an interest-free loan for the balance of their tuition, textbooks, and living expenses. I also believe any US citizen or legal resident who gets into a properly accredited graduate program should qualify for grants covering some percentage of their tuition, and interest-free loans covering the balance of tuition and living expenses. I think mandatory repayment of those loans should begin not at graduation, but at obtaining employment in their field following graduation. And I think that people who get degrees to work in public service fields should automatically qualify for at least partial forgiveness of their graduate loans.

    I also believe that people who agree to work in the public sector for a specified period of time following graduation should qualify for complete forgiveness of their graduate loans.

    And I believe that private lenders of educational loans should be prohibited from charging more than 1% interest, and should be compelled to at least partial loan forgiveness in the event of the borrower's bankruptcy.

    To pay for these things, I advocate several changes to produce revenue:
    first, I advocate a slight surtax on extremely high incomes of a capital gains nature.
    Second, I advocate a slight reduction in defense spending (let's say, reducing the US defense budget by around $50 billion or so, adjusted).
    Third, I advocate the universal legalization and taxation (and regulation) of marijuana and industrial hemp.
    Fourth, I advocate decriminalizing (but not legalizing) all drugs currently classified as "Schedule III" or lower, and most drugs currently classified as "Schedule II."
    Fifth, I advocate the universal legalization and taxation (and regulation) of prostitution and gambling. (These latter three will not only generate massive new tax revenues in and of themselves as well as in subsidiarily related or tangentially generated industries, but will save enormous sums currently wasted on attempts on enforcement, petty judicial procedures, extra police and guards, and excessive prison building and maintenance, among other things.)
    Sixth, I advocate a corporate "monopoly" surtax, whereby corporations that have their fingers in too many pies (e.g., General Electric), or monopolize certain sectors of product (e.g., Merrill Lynch or Morgan Stanley) must contribute something extra to the treasury to compensate for their poor corporate citizenship.
    And seventh, I favor ending all Federal subsidies to corporations in the business of non-renewable energy (oil, gas, coal, etc.), or in corporate agribusiness; and drastically reducing if not eliminating most Federal subsidies to corporations of any kind with annual global gross incomes above $1B.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Perspective from the school side...

    OK, first question I have is, WTF does a college need to have it's own airport & golf courses??? (please note the plural...)
    You're not really winning for your side here. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2012
  8. PonyPotato

    PonyPotato Very Tilted

    Location:
    Columbus, OH
    Ohio State has a program for training pilots,hence the airport. The golf courses are faculty, alumni, and donor things.. They still charge membership fees, I believe, but are largely networking locations.

    The issue of privatizing parking on campus is a Big Issue here right now. We're switching over to semesters right now, largely in an attempt to save money in administration costs. I'm glad the university is forming a long term plan, but tuition here has increased 60% in the last 8 years, (I think it's 8) so my cost for grad school is ridiculously higher than it was at the same school during my undergraduate term.
     
  9. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Some good points here. I agree in principle that education costs need to be kept low, as it is mostly cost alone that creates barriers to entry into post-secondary education. It is especially important in societies where the gap is widening between the well-to-do and the not-so-well-to-do, as these barriers will only serve as an infrastructure for a de facto caste system. Furthermore, it's a question of global competitiveness. The nations with the highest college-educated populations will be in much better positions to lead economically and politically.

    Also, anyone who is interested in the specifics. The Quebec provincial government just passed emergency legislation instituting punitive fines for protesters of up to $5,000 for individuals and $125,000 for groups. As you may have guessed, this was like throwing gasoline on the fire. Now even Molotov cocktails are out.

    "My view is that this legislation is part of the extreme reaction that this debate has provoked. Violent demonstrations provoke violent reactions."​
    John H. Gomery, BCL, BA, QC, Canadian jurist (Ret.)​

    Hours after crackdown bill passes, Montreal protest erupts in violence | News | National Post
    Quebec emergency law goes 'very far', ex-judge Gomery says - Politics - CBC News
    Quebec student bill 'worst law' since War Measures Act: law professor - Winnipeg Free Press
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2012
  10. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    Schools aren't beholden to any kind of track record for dollars spent to dollars recovered for students. I'm saying that there is not correlation to the amount of money spent to the amount of money earned.

    Many people where I grew up went to CSUN which is in the Cal State system instead of the UC system. Also there was a community college close to CSUN that many of the CS professors also taught the same courses and materials for 1/3 the cost.

    Children are also taught to blue sky their future, which is a great thing. I do think that what is missing is the tempering of reality wherein taking out $100k in loans for a job that is going to pay you gross $40k/year is pretty folly.

    I decided early on that it wasn't smart for me to take on student loan debt as a business management major because the return of investment of dollars did not make sense based on the potential return I had.

    What I'm currently baffled with are parents today who are paying $20k for children in kindergarten and grade school. What's that mean for the cost of university? It has to be more than that right? I mean it has to have more value than the cost of kindergarten correct?
     
  11. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    Paying for a year of tuition and fees at the state university I went to is cheaper than paying for a year of childcare at the facility I work at. Part of it is just that childcare is expensive--we have a 1 to 4 caregiver/child ratio in the younger room.

    I had an acquaintance freshman year of school that had just graduated from a Catholic private school in the Portland area (Jesuit). Her tuition for a year at Jesuit was way more than a year of tuition at state school. What's the point?

    One anecdotal phenomenon I've seen--and perhaps others recently in school have experienced this as well--is that people who attended school before tuition skyrocketed don't comprehend that you can't just work your way through school anymore. It's not feasible. Debt is a fact of life unless you have really generous parents--and many people don't. I think this may be contributing to the disconnect we see between students protesting tuition and the older generations scratching their heads.

    Even if you do two years of community college to make it more affordable, you eventually have to transfer to finish a 4-year degree. I've also seen a lot of people start at community college and languish there because they didn't want to take the plunge into 4-year school. I'm grateful that my local community college has a direct transfer program with my university--my husband, his brother, and all of his cousins have gone that route, and out of his generation, 3 people have now completed college degrees.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2012
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    I don't think I'm a rare case when I say that my parents could not afford to give me anything to earn a post-secondary education. That's actually one of the factors in determining a student's eligibility for low-interest loans via the federal and provincial governments to attend school. These programs are heavily used, and I assume it's because borrowing to attend college has become necessary due to costs that have increased far beyond inflation.

    One could argue that students should then plan for their own education costs. I mean, I could have in theory. I held part-time jobs between the age of 14 and my graduation from university. However, I never received any education, tips, guidance, or encouragement regarding sound financial advice. Many who were raised in a working-class family may know what it's like to live in a spend rather than save environment. I never learned money management other than observing how my parents scrimp by through decisions to delay, do without, or buy ultra-cheap. How is that kind of thing supposed to help a kid realize he needs to put himself through school? I didn't even know I was going to get to college. I was one of the first in my extended family to do so (one cousin beat me by about a year or two). No one in my family talked about college. They were lucky to get high school diplomas. Not all of them did.

    That said, when it came time, it was either borrow or don't go. I could have saved up, but I would have done so at a menial job (probably retail), and it would have taken forever. Am I better off having chosen the course I did? I would say yes. I haven't maximized my income by any stretch, but I'm doing something I love and getting paid reasonably well. I can't get the kind of job I have with just a high school diploma.

    I would have loved to work part-time during school and full-time during summers and pay my way through school. I get the feeling this was totally possible back in the day. I did work part-time during school and full-time during summers all the way through a college diploma and a university degree, but that was to offset living costs. Loans help with living costs (you get more if you live on your own vs. with your parents), but they don't cover them.

    I don't envy students today, as they're paying more than what I did, and I had a rough time of it. It will take me ten years, $300/month to pay off my student loans. That doesn't include the costs I offset while working through school or the credit card balances for costs exceeding my means at the time. (And I hardly lived the good life while in school. Little time and money for play, that's for sure. Toronto isn't cheap, even when you don't do anything.)
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2012
  13. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    I hate to say it, Baraka_Guru, but I think you're a great illustration of some of the issues facing today's students and graduates.
     
  14. cynthetiq

    cynthetiq Administrator Staff Member Donor

    Location:
    New York City
    Back in 1987 was my first year of college, it was already $20,000 for my first year of private university up from the $8,000 for my college preparatory Catholic high school. I didn't want to go because I understood that community college for 2 year prerequisite general education was going to be a huge cost savings. My father insisted that "No son of his was going to a community college," and I went to this private school.

    I ended up going back to community college, and languishing. Not because I wasn't driven to transfer to another school, just that the tech sector was starting to boom and I was faced with taking a history class at 2PM or making $500 for the afternoon consulting on networks or workstation builds. I could have theoretically worked my way through college to afford the 4 year uni costs, but I didn't think that was as valuable as me going out and putting my head down and actually working. I had already worked in major corporations so the only place a degree held me back and still does is the finance sector.

    But the difference between myself and my friends is that out of the gate I didn't saddle myself with $75,000 in student loan debt.

    If people aren't able to afford college costs, how are they about to afford regular school, middle school, and high school costs?
     
  15. snowy

    snowy so kawaii Staff Member

    A nice graphic to supplement the conversation, illustrating the difference between sticker price and net price at colleges:

    [​IMG]

    That said, there are a lot of people whose parents make too much money for them to be Pell eligible, but don't make enough money to fully pay for their child's college education. There are other factors that play into a family's ability to contribute to paying for college. Take my cousin--her dad makes a good salary, but she also has a developmentally disabled sister. On paper, their family contribution is higher than it should be, because the formula doesn't take into account the extra expenses generated by having a developmentally disabled sibling.
     
  16. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    Nice, snowy

    I wanted to return here to talk more about the numbers. I know that education inflation is still rocketing along at more than 8% annually. That's up to four times faster than overall inflation.

    The Quebec protest/student strike is in its 102nd day despite the recently passed draconian "Truncheon Law."

    This isn't about tuition alone. This is about debt. This is about an imbalance between resources. This has more to do with OWS that a lot of people realize.
     
  17. Jetée

    Jetée Getting titled

    And here is the topic to which I was looking to contribute to; came across this article in the last week, and thought it pertained greatly to the initial impetus of why the media is focusing its lense so intently on this issue.

    - - -
    "When President Obama spoke in the State of the Union of the need to send more Americans to college, it was in the context of economic competition with China, phrased as if we ought to produce graduates like steel. As the near-ubiquitous unpaid internship for credit (in which students pay tuition in order to work for free) replaces class time, the bourgeois trade school supplants the academy. Parents understandably worried about their children make sure they never forget about the importance of an attractive résumé. It was easier for students to believe a college education was priceless when it wasn’t bought and sold from every angle."
    — Malcolm Harris, for n+1. ​

    [Read of Interest: Education in the context of the economy]
     
  18. rogue49

    rogue49 Tech Kung Fu Artist Staff Member

    Location:
    Baltimore/DC
    Many "name" schools have special programs with smaller ones.

    The method I did to save money, since I paid it all in cash over my time doing it.
    Is that I first went to in-state community colleges.
    I got all the basic course out of the way...
    Signed up for the special TAG program, or connection program with the name school.
    Got as much required and finished still at the community college,
    Then I only had a half-year to finish my full degree at the name university.

    Saved money.
    It allowed me to play in the water a bit...decide what I wanted to do in truth (which time...a bit of waste...but worth it since its cheaper)
    What worked, what didn't (including my own scholastic sins...)
    The classes were smaller and more flexible
    And I still got the degree to show off from the name school. (still "in-state" BTW...that's also a key to save)

    Unless you've got a full ride
    Why do it the hard, expensive way?
     
  19. Baraka_Guru

    Baraka_Guru Möderätor Staff Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    The world is starting to take notice of the goings-on in Montreal and other parts of Quebec. Maybe this includes the rest of Canada.



    Montreal Pots And Pans Video Of Protest Against Bill 78 Goes Viral
     
  20. Jetée

    Jetée Getting titled

    You are quite right.

    [​IMG]
    Benoit Tardif is a great Montreal illustrator.

    Here he’s capturing the casseroles - Every night at 8pm, Montreal neighbourhoods take to their balconies and streets, banging pots and pans in support of the student protests - which have gone on for over 100 days now. The Guardian is covering this pot-banging protest today also.
     
    • Like Like x 1