Did force on force training this weekend...wow

So I took the insights 'street and vehicle tactics' course this weekend:

Street & Vehicle Tactics Training

and it was very educational. The first few days were spent practicing how to pie around around corners inside of structures, avoiding carjacking, shooting from vehicles, properly using cover to avoid ricochets and a lot of other useful stuff.

But really the highlight was the final day when we did the force on force scenarios with airsoft guns. Of course before we began they made sure we were completely disarmed of not just guns but also knives or anything that could be used as a real weapon, as they said people tend to get caught up in these scenarios and they didn't want any accidents to happen (which will become very apparent later in the post).

So anyway, the way it works was that the teachers would secretly give each student a role and they told the students not to tell the other people their role, so one knew who was a bad guy or a good guy. Also, typically only 1 or 2 students out of the group of 8 were given guns in the scenario, the rest were supposed to be just casual shoppers without any guns.

Just to backtrack a bit before I begin talking about the scenarios I have to throw this in. At the very beginning of the class it was emphasized that it's always good to trade "stuff" to a bad guy rather to start a gun fight. If the bad guy wants to rob a store, it's usually best to let him take the money. If he wants to take your wallet and phone, it's a lot cheaper to give him those things then shoot him and have to hire an attorney. Additionally they said in the seattle area there's typically 2-3 bank robberies in a single day without any violence and that for a 6 year period around the late 1990's no one got hurt in any bank robberies in the area. However, that being said if you feel your life is in danger they made it clear you should be prepared to defend yourself. It's a fine line but you have to make that decision in the moment.

So back to the scenarios.

The first one was a mock convenience store. It was set up in a conference room. They stacked some chairs on tables and put tarps on them to simulate aisles. There was a podium by the front door that was the "cash register" and a garbage can in the back that was an "atm".

When I was given my secret role I was a licensed CCW permit holder with a gun and that I was having a hard time finding food in a particular aisle.

So the instructor yells "start scenario!" and everyone starts doing random things. One guy is by the atm getting money out (monopoly money), people are walking up and down the aisles, one guy is walking up to the cash register, another guy is the store owner walking around asking people if they need help finding anything etc. This goes on for about a minute before he yells out "end scenario!"

So he then asks us if anyone noticed anything. None of us had. He then asked the guy who had went up to the cash register what had happened and he said "I quietly told the lady that I had a gun and to give me the money from the register." She gave him the money and he left. And the teacher said that's how the majority of robberies happen, no shots fired, no one ever knows it happened except the employee and the robber.

So we set it up again. This time I wasn't given a gun. I was told to look for food. So I'm looking for food as the scenario begins. This time I notice a guy circle around the entire perimeter of the store. And when he gets close to the cash register he takes a gun out of his front pants and aims it up at the ceiling and tells the employee to give him the money. I take cover behind an aisle but this is where it gets interesting. One of the guys close to the register was a "ccw holder" and crouches behind one of the aisles and starts shooting at the bad guy. The bad guy starts shooting at him and runs out the door at the same time. End scenario. I think they each shot at each other about 4 or 5 times each in about 2 second within about a 4 yard range . The bad guy said he only got hit in his knuckle and the ccw holder wasn't hit at all (they each said they focused more on the other person rather than their sights). Right afterwards we talked about if shooting at the bad guy was really a good idea or not, he did technically have a gun but he wasn't aiming it at anyone or acting particularly aggressive and now there's a shootout where there probably wouldn't have been one otherwise (the bad guy's role was that he was just interested in the money but he would shoot anyone that might oppose him). It was a situation were there was no right or wrong answer, but ideally it would be best to let him take the money and go.

There was one more scenario in the "convenience store." I was given a gun again. So I'm shopping as usual. A guy goes up the register with a gun and yells "give me the money!" (I think the bad guy may have pointed the gun at the employee but I'm not sure) I duck behind cover and watch what happens. Another ccw holder in the store yells out "drop the weapon!" and the bad guy freezes. What the other ccw holder didn't notice however was the person behind him pull out a gun and shoot him in the back. The 2nd bad guy immediately runs out with the 1st bad guy with the monopoly money. End scenario. The 2nd bad guy was there for his buddy as backup in case anything went wrong. By pulling his gun out and not checking his surroundings the other CCW holder got shot. If I had pulled my gun out I would have been shot as well given the angle the backup had on us both from behind (we were told to stay in certain areas of the store as part of our role.)

So after that we switched to another conference room set up as a "bar". I still hadn't shot anyone yet, which was kind of a bummer, but I also hadn't gotten shot which is more important One of the key themes of the class was "you don't win gun fights by shooting the other guy, you win by not getting shot."

So the bar is set up with some tables and chairs and a foosball table. I'm given a gun and told to sit anywhere. So I sit in a chair behind the foosball table. The scenario begins. Some people are walking around, some sitting. A man and woman come in and sit at the other side of the room. They start arguing. This goes on for about 20 seconds. There's jazz music playing in the background on a radio. Eventually I hear "I've had enough of you! " from the man with the girlfriend and I hear the distinctive "click" of a pocket knife being opened. She screams and stands up and starts backing away from him and he stands up with the spyderco (dummy) knife in his hand and starts following her saying "get back here !" She is screaming and they are coming my way. I stand up from the chair and get behind the foosball table and yell out "drop the weapon ! drop it!" but he keeps coming and at this point they are only like 2 yards away from me. So I circle around the foosball to keep it between me and them and shoot the guy around 4 times in the torso while I'm walking clockwise and his side is turned towards me and he goes down (from the time I yelled out to when I shot him it was probably only 1 or 2 seconds). I then yell out to call the police and ask if he hurt anyone else (they tell us to say this is so the witnesses see you as the good guy) and reholster my gun. End scenario. The instructors said I did everything correct, however they did remind us as a class that legally speaking you do not have to protect other people if you choose not to and that if you have family members with you you may want to take that into consideration before involving yourself in a violent interaction.

So we set the scenario up again, I'm not given a gun this time and I can sit anywhere.

Oh yeah and remember earlier how they made sure we were completely disarmed because sometimes people get caught up in the scenarios? Keep that in mind!

So it begins pretty much the same as before. A couple comes in. They start arguing. The guy pulls out the knife and starts coming towards the girl. Everyone sees this and bolts for the door. They start coming towards me again and I look at the exit and realize there's no one left in the room and the guy has backed the girl up to a corner and started doing stabbing motions with the knife. So his back is towards me (and here's where I almost got caught up in the scenario) I run up behind the guy and almost punch him in the face from behind but at the last second I remember it's not real and pull it back, and then I make fake punching motions for like 2 seconds while he is "stabbing" the girl. Then I hear from behind me "Drop the weapon !!!" and I'm like "shit I'm about to caught in a cross fire!!" So I duck down and what I hadn't noticed before was that there was one guy left in the bar and he was a ccw holder. So I duck down and scramble out the door and look in. The bad guy is still stabbing the girl and the ccw yells out to drop the weapon like 3 more times while the girl is still being stabbed (and I'm thinking what the hell is the ccw guy waiting for, she's being stabbed!) before he shoots the bad guy. He then says to call the police so as a witness I "called the police" and he reholstered his gun. End scenario.

I still get pretty worked up remembering these last two scenarios, they both felt extremely real.

So at the end of that scenario we did a mini debrief as to what happened. There was actually two CCW holders in the bar. When the guy when the knife stood up, one of the CCW holders decided to just run out with the rest of the people. The instructors said that's a perfectly fine decision to make if you decide that your personal goal is to just protect yourself and/or your family. The other CCW holder was apparently taking cover behind a table which is why I didn't see him. And then my dumbass gets up and starts punching the guy with the knife from behind (not exactly the best tactical decision to make but I had zero time to think about it). The instructor said "Yeah when I saw you get up and start punching him I said what the hell, I didn't tell him to do that haha" So I guess after seeing me punch the bad guy for a while the other ccw guy decided it was safe enough to come out and shoot the bad guy. And they asked him "it didn't seem like you wanted to shoot him." And he said "Yeah, I really, really didn't want to." I was actually getting quite pissed off when she was being stabbed and the ccw guy kept repeating over and over for the bad guy to drop the weapon and it was obvious the bad guy wasn't going to stop stabbing her.

Like I said, the scenarios felt extremely realistic. I think everyone involved had some adrenaline going. This training was extremely valuable and at the end of the class we all expressed our interest to the instructors in having more classes of this nature, so hopefully there will be a 'street and vehicle tactics 2'.

Also a few key aspects of "gun fights" were reinforced: 1)They happen very quickly and usually the shooting happens from unconventional/non static positions. 2)It's best to not draw your gun unless you absolutely have to (duh).

 

Sounds like an interesting weekend.
What kind of folks took the class with you?

 

Sounds like a great class with realistic scenarios and realistic goals.

Non-gun people forget it's not just about guns... but options.

Training + firearm = lots better than using a chair:



Thumbnail: Why are these women running for their lives in heels? Totally fuckin' retarded.

...

3 Tactifatties
2 CrossFit groupies / GWoT vets
1 Police Officer
1 Racial Minority
1 Hot Chick

 

sounds pretty good. we did force on force training, but coming from a uniformed officer perspective. things like a car is stopped and someone is yelling that they are being kidnapped. Who do you cover with your weapon? he/she could be lying to lead you out. one training we did at the local state bureau of investigation was a 360 degree video screen system with a gun that would show your shots on the screen. one scenario was to go into a biker bar with two local officers to arrest a guy with a stolen motorcycle. Stupid to go into an unfriendly place, but that's the scenario. You were assigned to cover the crowd in the bar while the other two officers make the arrest. of course he starts to resist and the crowd gets agitated. Most of the officers turned to watch, allowing one guy to draw.
Last week I stopped a car, male driver female passenger. Ran his info, he had felony larceny warrant, $20,ooo or greater. I call for cover, a few minutes later several deputies are in the area. I hear over the radio that they are at the gas station, but they dont see anything. I tell my dispatch that I am aroundthe side of the building. A few seconds later a deputy comes around and walks straight up to the passenger side of the car. He could have been shot. No weapons and the guy was not violent or resistive, but you never know. With a felony I would have had the deputy with me on the other side of my car, I would have told them to put their hands out the windows, I would have the passenger exit and back up to us. One would have patted her down and cleared her, then we would have ordered him out. Down to his knees and then forward to cuff him.

 

And I'm guessing the hot chick was not also a member of the other groups listed? Like, say a Tactifatty, minority hot chick police officer?

 

Sounds like a well run class, educational and maybe just a bit fun.

This bit reminded me of something that I've often read about random encounters with violent criminals. Basically there are two types of violent criminals who pick random targets; the kind that want your stuff and to GTFO as fast as possible and the genuine sadists who are after you. When you encounter the first kinds it's usually pretty obvious because they ask for your stuff and in that scenario you should just give it to them. The other type will generally not ask for stuff but ask you to do something, typically something that increases their control over the situation. They will try to take you somewhere, restrain you or something else and this is the kind of person you must fight back against, immediately. Even if the odds aren't good, they get much worse once your bound or relocated, so give it all you got.

They talk about anything like that in the class, threat assessment I guess you would call it.

 

...who has time for that shit in an urban area where you're thinking about what to make for dinner? Oh, yeah... nobody.

Mmm, I don't know if anybody smart wants to play bad guy psychic in a situation where lethal weapons have been introduced.

When a firearm enters the equation, the motivation doesn't really matter. The guy could puss out or freak and shoot you a dozen times.

Hope is not a viable self-defense policy. I.E. the second you falsely assume someone will bug out after you give them your wallet.

It's different when someone is in your living room at 3 AM and you're upstairs with a shotgun. Let them take the friggin' TeeVee.

The big problem with trying to combat a situation like this is that you won't have backup, distance or the advantage of surprise.

The smart thing would be to give the guy your wallet. But there isn't some underlying social contract that means he won't cap you.

 

what I have been told is that if someone tells you "give me your wallet or I will shoot you" they are giving you a choice. Believe them that they will shoot you if you resist. The ones who want to kill you wont give you a choice first. they will just shoot.
"if you are going to shoot, then shoot. Don't talk"

 

I must have missed the part where I said that giving the guy your wallet means you definitely won't get shot. I'm sure you'll point it out for me.

 

Come at me, lizard guy! Relax, Whole Post Quoter. Just musing on the whole "threat assessment" thing as it applies to "random encounters" with "violent criminals," especially those with firearms. A threat/risk assessment is something you do when you're planning a 48 hour operation... not something you do in 1.8 seconds when someone levels a .38 at your gut. Most people could probably draw their own pistol in less time than it takes to play FBI profiler in a dark parking lot. Pretty obvious that this situation is super shitty for a number of reasons and your options are equally bad.

 

I disagree, you can't make decisions without first taking stock of the situation. Making an 'assessment' if you will. At least, you're not likely to make the right decision for the right reason without figuring out what's going on. If someone tells you to hand over your wallet it's usually the best move. If someone tell you to get in the car, it's usually the worst move. You can't break it down into simple rules like 'always cooperate' or 'always draw'. Different situations call for different rules and in order to know the correct one to follow you first have to know what the hell is going on.

 

Or knife. Or lead pipe. Or 3 dudes that each weigh 100 pounds more than you.

Yeah, you tell that to Bruce Wayne's parents.

/What If... Game'd!

 

exactly. but rehearsing at least helps you summarize your options quickly. Mine was based on probabilities, but it's certainly not 100%. by rehearsing you at least have a couple of options so that you can move quickly, whatever your choice is.

 

Whether anybody thinks they're Jason Bourne or John Lennon is totally irrelevant... hostile confrontations have a way of making people do all sorts of outta character stuff. All that matters is that you get training, practice on your own time and play the worst case scenario game in your head occasionally. If you don't believe in weapons, cool. If you do, get more training. Either way, be realistic about what you're going to do in one of those crap scenarios. I concur that giving your wallet up to a mugger is usually the smart thing but the other side of the coin is that it is equally reasonable to shoot a mugger that points a gun at you. Some people say, "I don't own anything worth fighting over." Response to that is: "How about your life?"

I don't give a fuck about guns. I'd be lying if I said I carried all the time. What I do know is that if the option is available, I'm confident it's better than crossing my fingers. Again, since I'm such a big prick and love hearing myself talk: firearms are not the option, just another option. For fuck's sake.

 

Looks I finally fully understand what 'packing heat' means.

My understanding of violence/aggression is that it breaks down into two types that are useful to talk about: instrumental violence, which is a means to an end (Give me your wallet or I'll shoot!) and affective violence which is retaliatory, emotional or just plain fun for it's own sake (Here's Johnny!). Knowing and understanding the difference seems obviously useful to me in the context of self-defense and particularly relevant as a pretext to understanding the kind of force on force scenarios outlined in the OP thus, the original point of me bringing it up and asking about it.

 

Uh? English?

Hey, I took criminal psychology, too. Did you do a case study on the Virginia Tech incident as well? Man, talking to the surviving students and faculty was really depressing. Anyway, I'm not trying to troll anybody here, man. I'm just playing devil's advocate for your escalation of force / negotiator thing. Context is great... when you've got time for it. I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm likely giving up my wallet. Rampage shooter situation? I'm probably bugging out because I don't wanna get shot by a cop or deal with lawyers. Difference between John Q. Public and, say, ChrisJericho is that ChrisJericho may have a legal concealed weapon on him and may decide that his life is threatened and that he wants to stop that threat immediately.

 

I wish someone had been concealed carry at the theater in aurora.

 

Odd thing to hear coming from a LEO (assume you're one, anyway).

 

I am, and I think many LEO's would agree with me. the guy who goes thru the effort of getting a permit is probably pretty much on the law-abiding side. i have had two people tell me they are carrying during stops and i tell them that i appreciate them telling me and then to keep it light i will tell them if they dont show me theirs i wont show them mine.

 

Must be the politics of where you're located.

A lot of cops where I live prefer to be the only ones with guns because it "makes it easier to pick out the bad guys" and "shooting bad guys is my job (even though I only hit the range twice a year)." That and they forget that they usually show up 15 minutes after whatever bad happened already went down. I'm not knocking the boys in blue; it's just a bit odd to hear that there are LEOs that are actually okay with concealed carry permits.