Dating the Mentally Retarded?

[Halx]

I just read this on reddit. I felt like it would be an interesting topic of discussion here:

Is it socially acceptable to date a retarded woman? : reddit.com

There is a woman who lives on the same floor as me that is mentally handicapped yet super hot (you have no clue she is retarded just by looking at her). She isn't Down syndrome level but she is about 5-10 iq points below Forrest Gump. We get along well and she seems to like me, she always compliments my clothes and I always say how pretty she is which makes her blush and let out a hearty retard laugh that makes me feel warm inside (as well as incredibly turned on).

While I will admit that Retarded is up there with midget on my dream fetish list I do genuinely like her as a person, while I could probably manipulate (not force) her into a one night stand with some coaxing, Id really like to do this the old fashioned way, take her out on dates, meet her parents etc. I just don't want to seem like some sort of sick creep that is trying to take advantage of her. (I know my ex would have a field day with this). I know there will always be people that don't approve, I just want to know if this is something that is universally frowned upon, they seem to always date their own kind. I guess we good always move and I could tell people she is my wife who suffered a brain injury and people would admire me for staying with her and caring for her, but that is a worst case scenario.

How would you react if you met a normal guy dating a retarded chick?

While most comments tell this guy to steer clear, I am thinking otherwise. If he is genuinely looking to make his case to sleep with the girl, he needs to put in the work to ensure that she knows what she's getting into and agrees to it. Who am I to judge if a mentally retarded individual knows or doesn't know about sex? It is the internet's knee-jerk reaction to distrust the intentions of someone who asks questions like these, but if this guy has the initiative to question his ethics and hold them up against an community's opinion, he can't be all that bad. Or he could be a troll.

[shakran]

i tend to distrust the intentions of someone who describes it as letting out "a hearty retard laugh." And he's already thinking of ways to "excuse" dating a retarded girl by lying and claiming her to have "suffered a brain injury."

Guy's a dick. She can do better.

[ratbastid]

Depending on her capacity, consent would be iffy at best. I think the real question for him to ask himself before taking any action with her is: what would a jury think?

He should watch Season 3 of Arrested Development.

---------- Post added at 10:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 AM ----------

Originally Posted by shakran

Guy's a dick. She can do better.

Nice.

[Cervantes]

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Depending on her capacity, consent would be iffy at best. I think the real question for him to ask himself before taking any action with her is: what would a jury think?

He should watch Season 3 of Arrested Development.

QFT

If he's serious about dating her and pursuing a real relationship with her then all the best to him. but like shakran wrote, there is just something not right with the way he describes her. She may be mentally retarded but they way he describes her it seems almost as if he subconsciously despises her for it.

In the end, he's gonna run into trouble, if not from the people around him then from the parents and non retarded siblings etc. My experience with people who have a lowered cognitive capacity than normal is that their family (and friends of the family) are extremely protective of them.

If he's serious about a relationship with her, his first obstacle will be to gain the trust and approval of all those who care for her at the same time as he's initiating the relationship with her.

[Halx]

Asshole aside, could a decent person date a mentally retarded person and have them consent to sex?

[Xerxys]

^^ Very much doubt it. Can a mentally retarded person "consent" to anything? Nope.

As far s the dude is concerned, yeah he just wants to hit that!

[Cervantes]

Originally Posted by Halx

Asshole aside, could a decent person date a mentally retarded person and have them consent to sex?

A decent person, yes of course but it's a tricky situation no matter what IMO. The whole deal with if the person in question is capable enough to make informed decisions in sexual matters would have to be decided on a case by case basis.

It's just that the potential of abuse is so much higher. Someone, like the mother or responsible sister, would have to step in and keep an ongoing dialog with the two regarding their sexual life. If the guy is decent then he should have no problem with that...

[Nisses]

I suppose they would have to get "rated" as to how accountable and responsible they are. --> How well they function in society.
If they qualify for everything else that society throws at them, I see no problem with them being able to consent to sex.

[MSD]

I'm going to call trolling because of the fact that he says a "hearty retard laugh" turns him on.

"10 points below Forrest Gump" puts her at 65, which is severely impaired intelligence by any test's standards. I just don't think I could date someone with an IQ significantly lower than half of mine. It's not simply a matter of intelligence to me, but someone with that kind of impairment. observes and comprehends the world around them on a fundamentally different level. I seriously doubt that she would be capable of the same level of emotional maturity, judgment, and critical thinking. To me, I would feel like that sort of relationship is on the same ethical level of pedophilia -- not the guy who kidnaps and murders young children, but the NAMBLA ones who say that their desire for relationships with prepubescent children is normal and healthy for both them and the children. Maybe someone with severe impairment won't grow out of emotional immaturity and incomplete psychological development to the point that they'll suffer the same psychological harm as an adult, but it's inherently exploitative for the same reason that sexual relationships between adults and children (up to mid teens) are abusive. There is a chance that there will be no lasting harm, but the power imbalance between the two of them is so great that I couldn't consider it healthy.

[FuglyStick]

Originally Posted by MSD

I'm going to call trolling because of the fact that he says a "hearty retard laugh" turns him on.

"10 points below Forrest Gump" puts her at 65, which is severely impaired intelligence by any test's standards. I just don't think I could date someone with an IQ significantly lower than half of mine. It's not simply a matter of intelligence to me, but someone with that kind of impairment. observes and comprehends the world around them on a fundamentally different level. I seriously doubt that she would be capable of the same level of emotional maturity, judgment, and critical thinking. To me, I would feel like that sort of relationship is on the same ethical level of pedophilia -- not the guy who kidnaps and murders young children, but the NAMBLA ones who say that their desire for relationships with prepubescent children is normal and healthy for both them and the children. Maybe someone with severe impairment won't grow out of emotional immaturity and incomplete psychological development to the point that they'll suffer the same psychological harm as an adult, but it's inherently exploitative for the same reason that sexual relationships between adults and children (up to mid teens) are abusive. There is a chance that there will be no lasting harm, but the power imbalance between the two of them is so great that I couldn't consider it healthy.

It'd be like dating a six year old in a woman's body. I agree, it amounts to pedophilia.

[SSJTWIZTA]

does she live on her own (not alone, but does she make it by herself) and make her own decisions in life?

this would be a nice piece of info before i go judging people.

[Martian]

Yeah, one of the big problems here is how we define 'retarded.'

As an interesting aside, I auto-censored that first sentence and replaced retarded with developmentally disabled. Guess that comes from a lifetime of close contact with folks who're outside the cognitive norm.

Anyhoo.

There are a number of factors that go into this, mostly dependent on the individual's capability. The term retard (or the more socially acceptable alternative, developmentally disabled) is really just a catch-all that refers to a wide range of causes and symptoms. The major questions are:

1) What sort of cognitive capacity does this woman have?
And
2) What sort of adaptive ability does this woman have?

Cognitive capacity is what's being focused on here. If we take the estimate of 65 IQ as accurate, then this woman is quite high functioning, relatively speaking, and may be fully capable of making her own informed decisions so long as circumstances and repercussions are explained to her clearly. I've worked with individuals at this level, and they can and will surprise you if you give them the chance.

The real determining factor is adaptive ability though. A personal with lower than average intelligence may be fully capable of living independently, or with only minor assistance. Conversely, it is quite possible for someone to be highly intelligent but with no adaptive ability at all; such an individual may be able to compute complex functions in their head, but not be able to dress themselves. Think severe autism spectrum.

So, we have a hypothetical (for our purposes) woman, no apparent physical disfigurement, high functioning but cognitive impairment. For this woman, I would say in my decidedly inexpert opinion that a relationship is definitely an option; however, it's important for the gent in question to understand precisely what he's getting into. Suspicions have been mentioned from friends or family, but nobody even considered the woman's case worker (she most likely has one if she's living alone). His motives are going to be frequently questioned, at least in the beginning, and it's my experience that it's very difficult to pull a fast one on any social worker worth the job.

That isn't to say there aren't bad social workers; however, I've known more good than bad in my time. It's not a field you get into for the money or accolades.

The actual dynamics of the relationship would depend largely on just what this woman is capable of. Odds are that he would have to work with the case worker to start with in regards to finance (and possibly on an ongoing basis, assuming the relationship continues) but past that it's hard to say for sure what would or would not happen within the confines of the relationship.

Assuming that she's mentally or emotionally equivalent to a child is premature. That may be true, but is not necessarily the case.

So to answer the question, yes it can be acceptable but it's a highly contextual thing.

[dippin]

I doubt this guy has access to the real information on her, so I would guess that the "retarded" part is his perception which may or may not be clinically correct. In any case, hotness aside, it seems like nothing attracts him to her, and he is already making excuses for being together.

If he can't come up with a reason other than "she is hot," if he has thought about how to 'coax her into a one night stand," and if he already has an excuse to others as to why he is not exploiting her, I think the answer to the question "should he date her?" is self evident.

[levite]

I don't know. Leaving aside the guy in the original post, who was indeed a dick, I am not sure about even a decent person dating someone developmentally disabled.

I suppose if a qualified mental health professional deems her to have capacity to consent, there is nothing illegal about having sex with her. But still, it seems...I dunno, somehow a little sleazy?

Maybe that's unreasonable. I know some folks who work with the developmentally disabled, and they respect them, and honor them, and really relate to them; why not in a relationship?

And yet, I am a huge believer that a good relationship is one that never involves power differentials. One partner being DD and the other being of normal cognitive ability would seem like a permanent, insurmountable power differential to me....

Maybe this is all tainted by my aesthetic preferences, also: I am a fairly bright guy, and my taste-- more than anything about body type, hair color, etc.-- is for aggressively intelligent women. I like them at least as smart as I am, if not smarter, and the less intelligent a girl is, the less interest she holds for me. Maybe I just can't see it, and therefore it looks strange to me.

I guess I feel like, I wouldn't necessarily take someone to task for doing it, but I could never do so myself....

[World's King]

This guy has no respect for this woman. He's calling her a Retard. Isn't that evidence that he doesn't actually have good intentions with the woman?

[Crack]

How hot are we talking here?

[FelixP]

The guy above is a douche, but I think its possible to date someone who's MR/DD. If you get to know a girl who's retarted, and you like her, and you think she's good looking, why not go for it? Its wrong to take advantage of someone, but if she's mature enough to know what's up, I don't see a problem with it.

Think about this way: have you ever hooked up with a girl who was three sheets into the wind? I don't see much of a difference, except the drunk chick will eventually be sober. So I guess it would be like dating a raging alcoholic.

[Martian]

Originally Posted by World's King

This guy has no respect for this woman. He's calling her a Retard. Isn't that evidence that he doesn't actually have good intentions with the woman?

It's noteworthy that I didn't intend my post to address the link provided, but more as a general 'can a cognitively normal man have a functional relationship with a developmentally disabled woman' thing.

Reddit guy is a douche.

[Cynthetiq]

wow, for some reason this reminds me of 2.05: The War Between alt.tasteless and rec.pets.cats

I'd have to say he's already disingenuous by his opening. If he was interested in her to begin with, and then found out that she was retarded, that would be a difference.

It's the intention that is at the core of the OP not the action.

[Lucifer]

This douchebag aside, cause he obviously has no respect for women, much less for this particular woman, I think it is possible, probable and in fact know of two cases where it has in fact worked out. The first was a girl who was a few years ahead of me in public school who was struck by a car while crossing a road. She survived, but was left with speech impediments and diminished mental and cognitive abilities. She eventually married a man who worked at her father's garage and they raised a few kids together. He obviously had no problem with it, and you've got to believe he had a hurdle to cross to be dating the bosses daughter!

the other instance was a young woman who was my next door neighbour for about 10 years. She was in a head-on collision with another car on a Christmas Eve; her fiancee was killed instantly, and she spent about a month in a coma before coming out of it with slightly diminished cognitive ability. I just heard about her recently, she is married and just had a baby. Obviously there is another man, who had no issue with it.

[Strange Famous]

Its a very grey area and it really depends on the individual conditions of the girl in question. The judgment to me would be is the girl capable of informed consent to sex? If she isnt then its pretty much sexual assault, if its just the case that she isnt that bright - then I dont see it as a problem in itself... but it doesnt seem like he is interested in a relationship, just on screwing someone who is way out of his league and wouldnt look at him twice if it wasnt that she had some learning difficulties

So I guess the guy is either a creep or a jerk. Being a jerk is less bad, but it isnt something Id aim for myself. I personally cant imagine having much interest in a relationship with someone who didnt excite me emotionally unless it was just pure animalistic rutting... and if I did enjoy it Id probably feel like shit afterwards.

[Bear Cub]

Originally Posted by Crack

How hot are we talking here?

Beat me to it.


In hindsight, I think this situation reflects most of my past relationships: I'm always the asshole, and they're always retarded.

[allaboutmusic]

Question put another way - I happen to know at least one person who could be classed as having moderate developmental or learning disabilities (I say moderate - I would describe severe as someone who has difficulty communicating and understanding simple concepts). She is well over 18 (early 20s) and extremely frustrated at how difficult it is for her to have normal social relationships, but in particular to date and have romantic relationships.

If we are to say that those with these issues are unable to consent, do we have the right to withhold their right to seek fulfillment for their romantic and sexual desires? If we say yes, are we to restrict this to pre-screened "decent" people, or to others with similar conditions and difficulties?

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Crack

How hot are we talking here?

Let's be honest here. Isn't that what we were ALL wondering?

Originally Posted by MSD

I'm going to call trolling.

Yep. Me too. I've known some big ol' douchebags in my 47 years walking this planet. But, I've never met this big a douche.

[Zeraph]

If she's smart enough to live on her own (not super clear in the article) then she's smart enough to consent. And hey, everyone needs a little lovin. Even if the guy is a douche, who hasn't slept with a creep/douche/bitch? If they both enjoy it who cares. Just because of her condition doesn't mean she can't have one night stands.

[Punk.of.Ages]

If the girl's got the mental capacity of a child, it's the same as pedophilia. If she has the mental capacity of an adult then she's capable of making her own decisions. It really seems that simple to me....

Well, as long as I leave my opinions about the mentally handicapped breeding out of it.

[Willravel]

If she can provide knowing consent, then yes. If she can't, then no. The only way to provide knowing consent is to have the equivalent intelligence and emotional maturity of about an 18 year old, or someone in late adolescence. The 18 years old age for legal consent wasn't an arbitrary number.

[Charlatan]

This thread is useless without pictures.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Punk.of.Ages

If the girl's got the mental capacity of a child, it's the same as pedophilia.

Is it? This is the third time that I've seen that comparison. I'm not so sure. But, that's a subject matter for another thread.

[Punk.of.Ages]

Pedophilia is wrong because a child is not mentally capable of handling or consenting to sexual situations...

Unless I missed something.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

This thread is useless without pictures.

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Punk.of.Ages

Pedophilia is wrong because a child is not mentally capable of handling or consenting to sexual situations...

Unless I missed something.

Nope. I'm pretty sure that you've missed nothing POA. That's not the problem that I have with it. I'm just not sure that the situations are synonymous. While they may be "wrong" for similar reasons, I feel that the motivations involved are diametric. It's apples and oranges. Both are fruit, but that's really as far as it goes.

[Punk.of.Ages]

I see what you're saying....

All I'm saying is that if you are fucking somebody with the mental capacity of a child, you may as well be fucking a child.

[Shauk]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

This thread is useless without pictures.

mentally retarded people get action too.

[dlish]

This isnt about paedophilia people. lets stop splitting hairs. if she's over 18, she's legal age. the issue is about consent regardless of mental age.

so lets play the other side of the coin here.

if she was to have sex with a person who was also mentally disabled, where does consent fall here?

if they are so incapable of making decisions, but have sex anyways, does this mean that they didnt have sex because neither gave consent? the event would have occured without doubt....ok heres an example...

lets say two people are driving, they accidentally have an accident. they both didnt consent to the accident, but it happened. no issues..right?

another example, two people are driving, one intentioally drives into the other for some reason or other. the reckless driver gets jailed/reprimanded for breaking the law.

so when you look at it, the only difference is the mental capability and intention of the male.

[Charlatan]

It sounds like you are suggesting that you can have sex by accident...

[dlish]

just trying to use logic in a murky situation...doesnt work does it?

sex by accident sounds good though

[SSJTWIZTA]

[dlish]

fits in well with your signature SSJWITZA

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It sounds like you are suggesting that you can have sex by accident...

Hey! It could happen.