Am I in an open marriage? Is it polyamory? Polyfidelity? Definitions please.
 

My wife and I have what I think is a very conservative open marriage.

The short and skinny version of the story is that I leave the country on business quite often and about 7 years ago, after about 6 years of marriage, she started going out with a male coworker while I was gone. Basically, it was dating. What other word is there for it when a man and a woman go to the beach, go to bars and play pool, go to his house for "movie night" etc? There was no sex involved at that point, but they were dating. I leave the country for four or five weeks at a time and this bugged the shit out of me, but I was being the 'progressive' husband and I didn't want to be a jealous asshole. I had a girlfriend before who was a jealous nut, and it used to drive me crazy, so I didn't want to be like that with my wife.

Well, the second time I left the country for a 5 week hitch, the dating went into overdrive and I didn't let that get to me either. In fact, I told her that it was ok. It bugged me, as I said, but what were my choices? Lock her in a closet until I got home? Why should she sit at home bored while I am travelling the world? So I let her have her fun.

And, by the way, when I am home, we go out and have fun a lot too, so it's not as if he was giving her something that I wasn't.

Well, that time after I got home, a few days later, she was getting dressed up. I said, "What are you getting dressed up for?" She said "**** and I are going out tonight. He wanted to take me to this restaurant that's also a brewery." So I told her that I don't mind them going out while I am gone, but I'll be fucked if they are going to go out and leave me sitting at home in the precious few weeks I have with her.

And let's be clear about this: My marriage at that time was fine. We weren't fighting. We were communicating well (we always have) and the sex was great. Ask her and she will say the same thing.

So back to the story: she said "But, **** and I planned this date 2 weeks ago" and I said "I don't give a shit if you planned it 2 fucking years ago, you are calling him up right now and telling him that the date is off. If you want to go out with me, that's fine, but I'll be fucked if you are going out with him when I am on vacation."

So, a month later, when I left the country, he made his move. They got drunk together and the next thing you know they were fucking. the best she can recall, the fling lasted longer than a week and less than two.

All I knew was that when I came back, she didn't call him. Didn't talk to him. Didn't talk about him. Never mentioned him. And I never liked the guy, I thought he was a weasel, so I never said "Hey what happened to your friend ****?"

So a year and a half ago, which is several years after the affair, I found out about it. She confessed everything. I was pissed of course, but, I already suspected something anyway.

Well, we came to an understanding, after long conversations about sexuality, marriage, commitment etc., we came to the understanding that our ideal is the traditional marriage, but that making unrealistic promises to only ever sleep with one another is foolishness. No one could ever promise that. To promise that means to say that you can see into the future and you know that there is no possible circumstance under which you would ever have sex with someone other than your chosen mate. It's just pure, traditionalist stupidity to me. I wish I had seen it that clearly before.

So, our agreement is that our marriage is a nearly traditional marriage. We are committed to one another. If you met us, you would never ever guess that we have an open marriage and we would never tell you. Even if the subject of open marriages and polyfidelity came up... unless we really knew and trusted you. But she and I were talking about that and we named all of our friends and family and there is only one that she said she would tell, and that was a 'maybe'.

Our marriage is now thus: she will not ever be on the prowl looking for sex outside of our marriage. Ever. She has never been slutty in her life, and there is no reason she would start now. If she ever gets into a situation where there is a guy who is 'dangerous', she has made me three promises:

1) She will be safe and use protection
2) She will let me know as soon as possible
3) She will never, ever leave me for a fling.

Of course, these promises work both ways, but frankly, she is a bit hornier than me :D (just a bit)

Since this arrangement has been agreed upon, she has made out with one guy. That's it. She went to a bar with about 20 people, only two of whom she knew, and she said the next thing you knew, two by two, they wandered off, to go dance or to the bathroom or whatever. Pretty soon she was left alone with a young guy. He was about 25. She is in her 40s. She said he was extremely handsome. Very good looking young man. She looked at him and said, "Well, it's just me and you now" and this motherfucker just grabbed her and started making out with her. He never said a word. Just shoved his tongue down her throat.

She said they made out a bit, but it went no farther than that. They were drunk. What can I say? It proved that I have no jealousy anymore. None. At all. I wasn't angry or hurt in the least. Not even a tiny bit. In fact, when she told me about it, I smiled quite broadly.

And there is a guy in Scotland who wants to fuck her so bad, he can't stand it, but she has been keeping him at arm's length for about 5 years now.

There will never be a situation where she and I will be in a bar and she will be making out with a guy and someone will say "Hey, why is your wife making out with that dude?" and I will say, "Oh, it's ok, we have an open marriage".

We once knew a couple like that. They were friends of a friend of ours. In fact, the man asked his wife to snoop around and see if my wife would be interested in fucking him. She told the woman "Abso -fucking -lutely not!" She was extremely put off by it. Those two were always on the prowl.

So, the reason for the post was to request definitions, because I don't know anything about this shit. Open marriage? Polyfidelity? Polyamory? Swinging? (although I think I have that one figured out)

Am I correct? Do I have an "open marriage"? A very conservative one, or is there another term for it? Is my marriage polyfidelity? Can someone read all this and help figure it all out?

Thank you

PS: By the way, I posted my concerns on the "off-topic" section of a libertarian/left-leaning political forum I frequent, and you would not believe the hatred and vitriol leveled against me from supposed non-traditionalists. Society is ill-equipped to handle people who have different ideas about marriage, I guess. They insisted I couldn't be happy. I said I was. My marriage is better now than it ever was. That is no exaggeration. Our marriage is stronger than it was even before she slept with that half-man.

Another guy said that I have "self-esteem issues" I said "No, my self-esteem is fine". He replied, "I disagree." So, I retorted, "Well, I know me. You don't. Therefore, my opinion of my self-esteem necessarily trumps yours. I win the debate, automatically."

Maybe anyone in a similar marriage or relationship to mine could address societal non-acceptance as well. Really, I was quite surprised by it. I thought they would say "Congratulations on finding a mutally beneficial solution to your earlier marital problems." but no, it was things like "DUMP THE BITCH" and "UR DUM LOL"

Hard story.

I had a wife that cheated on me when we were first dating. We put it behind ourselves and moved on.

12 years later she did it again and we got a divorce.

I have trust issues now.

Hope things work out for you.

sounds tough... basically, you did get mad when she was openly going out with this guy so you need to be sure you are ok with all of this. I think most importantly, are you getting some action on the outside too? What i mean is are you having flings too? or is it just your wife? Personally I dont know I could handle all of this, but if you are ok with this then great for you.

As for defining what you have, you have an open marrige if you are each hooking up with other people outside your marrige and are "open" about it with each other. So i guess thats what you got!

Well, it was hard before, but we had hours long conversations, days in a row for several months about it. That is how we came to our present arrangement.

In fact, I have zero trust issues now. I know that if she ever sleeps with someome, I will be the third person to know about it, and I will know about it immediately after it happens. And since she is free to have as few or as many flings as she likes as long as she stays with me, she has no reason to leave me for someone who is going to offer her a more restrictive relationship.

As I said, I am now happier than I have ever been in my life and so is she. She isn't on the prowl for cock, but if a guy starts pursuing her and he really turns her on, she is free to have a fling if she likes, just so long as the three golden rules are adhered to.

I can't even imagine going back to the way our marriage was before. We had a good marriage before, don't get me wrong, but now we have a great marriage.

Thanks for your thoughts. I almost got some from a gal at work once, but I chickened out. I told my wife about it too. She was cool with it. Yes, the deal goes both ways.

And you are correct, I did get very upset about her seeing that half-man that she slept with, but that was a two part thing: First, and foremost, I never liked the guy. I thought he was a worm. And secondly, I was jealous. But that was then. She has since made out with a (she says) stunningly handsome, much younger man, and I actually smiled about it when she told me. I was happy for her. It was a little bit of a thrill.

I am a much different person now. Her cheating, and our subsequent conversations, changed our marriage, as I said, for the better.

I just had to check to see what forum I was on. Oh, TFP. No wonder Daniel responded like that!
You might have to wait until some of the more enlightened respond here.
I'm not an expert and don't know what you call it. You could try a swingers board, like http://www.swingersboard.com
It sounds like a reasonable way to keep a marriage alive if you are away for weeks at a time. Do you also have a woman to take care of your needs while you are gone?

Hi GP,

Well, whatever you make out of your marriage is up to the two of you. I don't really see the use in trying to come up with a term that defines what you have.. It just is your marriage.

I have to say though, I feel that through this thread you're trying to justify your current choices. I'm wondering why you feel the need to do that (just curious).

On another point, I can't help but wonder if that is what you want, or what you end up having to do because of her needs. The fact that she kept 'dating' someone you didn't like, and then slept with him too, is a bit odd. However, even if you're doing this because it's what she wants, that's not wrong either. It's just your decision.

I would be curious though if she would be really non-jealous if you actually did sleep with somebody else. Something for you to find out at some point, possible.

Good luck with your marriage, in any case :)

Well, I am not trying to justify it. I don't try to justify much, ever. But I do want to write about it and communicate with like-minded people, just so I can figure it all out.

I don't think definitions are that important, in and of themselves, but we do need names for things so that we can cummincate. We as people, I mean. Let's say one day she and I decided to go to a Meetup for like-minded people. Do we go to the polyamorous Meetup? I don't think so. I don't think our mariage is necessarily polyamorous, per se. It has the potential to get that way from time to time and then return to normal, but we aren't polyamorous, I don't think. Not by my understanding of the definition. That is why I wanted to make a post about it.

What was your other point? (checks)

Oh yeah: She didn't know I didn't like the guy. In fact, she once said something like "Well that was back when you liked ****." And I said, "I never liked that motherfucker. I always knew he was a snake in the grass."

And your point about it being what I really want, or if it's what I feel must happen to preseerve our marriage and keep her happy. I reworded what I think you meant. If that isn't what you meant, please correct me.

It started out as the latter and evolved into the former. At first, I told her that if that is what she needs from time to time, to have a fling, then I am willing to pay that price. And of course, she was crying saying she would never do it again and all this business. But later, after hours long conversations and many tears, and actually some laughter at that poor bastard ****'s expense (he had a small dick and was a dud in bed) we finally came to this arrangement.

What actually happened was that we realized that we had had something of an open marriage all along. The only difference is that now it's official. And now there are ground rules. And now, the jealousy is not an issue.

I was never that much of a jealous person before anyway. She has always been flirty and it never bothered me. She would flirt with guys right in front of me, and it never bugged me at all. But when she started actually dating this fucker. Well, that bugged me. And of course, her having sex with him was enraging to think about. But as I said, I can't imagine us going back to what we were before as individuals or to what our marriage was before.

Definitions schmefinitions. Who really cares what you are--what matters is that you've got an agreement that works between you. And you survived a trial that would have ended weaker relationships. AND you're enjoying the benefits of communicating with each other on the level that non-monogamy demands.

There's a saying in the Polyamory community: there are as many different poly configurations as there are poly families. In other words, no two couples or "clumps" have the same rules or agreements. Yours are just as unique as everybody else's.

The only thing I'd say about this is: I generally align with the philosophies and attitudes of those who identify as polyamorous. But the polyamory community is largely made up of ren-fest geeks or grey-bearded hippies, which really isn't my demographic. So while I support and generally follow the beliefs of the community, I find myself slightly embarassed by the community. I wish there was a term for hip, urban 20- to 30-something people whose lifestyle and choices allow for multiple romances and lovers.


I hear you completely. I had a lot of fun on Friday night telling lurkette all about the first date I had that afternoon. That was weird in itself--I haven't had a "date" in at least 15 years. But it went great, she's a really fun girl, and I'm looking forward to seeing her again. And I love that who lurkette and I are for each other is solid and stable enough that we can demonstrate that by allowing each other the freedom to explore.

It's definitely not how we're mostly raised to believe that relationships are "supposed" to be, though, so I generally think people's negative reactions are understandable, though unenlightened.

Well first you made a mistake with that whold friend thing. No guy just wants to be friends with a girl, and there is nothing over controlling about telling your wife not to see the guy, but thats over and done.

I dont' follow this really. This sounds like you gave her permission to flirt and then have sex with the guy if she thinks he will rape her.

But anyways what matters is what works for you. For me an open marriage is not something either of us are interested in, and while we have no problem with extramarital sex we would never be comfortable with a true open marriage.

Were you thrown off by my use of the word "dangerous"? I put apostrophes around it to show that I am not using it in the literal sense. I meant figuratively dangerous. As in, she is in danger of getting turned on by the guy and falling into bed with him for an evening of romance. In other words: there's danger afoot, because the conditions are right for extramarital sex.

If that's not it, then I can't help you out. You'll just have to remain confused.

Yes....You have an open, and by the sound of it quite healthy Marriage.

Good Job, its not easy.

Open marriages are fun. While neither of us have actively gone out "on the prowl" so to speak, we both do engage in a fair amount of extramarital sex. I know I'd like to find a woman to mess around with like that. I think it would be a blast!

Sounds like the issues you two had are pretty much resolved. Good luck with it all.

You and your wife have freely agreed upon what is acceptable and not acceptable in your relationship. Any other opinion about how you conduct yourselves as a couple is unimportant imo. There is the possibility that the agreement may be violated by either one of you in the future, but that is also true of monogamous relationships.

And welcome to tfp. :)

I think your options hinder on this paragraph:

If you feel that this accurately describes you, your wife, and your relationship with her, then you really only have two options. First, ignore this sentiment, and lie to yourselves and to each other about your (in)fidelities. This will most likely end up creating a huge distance between you two, eventually ending up in seperation and possibly hatred for one another.

The second is what you're doing. Which involves being honest and caring to one another. You're accepting each other's faults as human beings, and minding the other's feelings while you're doing it. I think with this route you're more guaranteed to find happiness in the end. You guys aren't going to be horny and sleeping around when you're elderly, so do what you gotta to do to get there. You might might have to roll with some punches along the way (like dealing with The Weasel), but it's better than lying to each other.

Yes that what I figured you meant but in the context it was unclear to me.

Good luck to you, but having been involved in swinging off and on for several years, I can tell you that open marriages often end in disaster and I wouldn't recomend it to anyone. Someone gets left out, and gets hurt. Often it seems they leave for a play partner, and I've seen the sob story again and again on swingers boards, which tend to get posts from open marriage types as well even though they are not the same.

With swingers or poly's the is a respect by all for the underlying relationship, with an open marriage the other partner doesn't give a rats ass about your relationship with your spouse. At best I see it as having 'allowed' affairs, at worst I see it as a ticket for divorce.

Maybe its just me with a biased perspective based on what I've seen, but I've never known a happy long term, until death do you part, open relationship, I've only seen the broken marriages.

What you do have going for you is that most open relationships have people looking for sex, its not a circumstantial thing like you described, so I suppose you may be more like 'condoned affairs' than an open marriage that most people seem to talk about having.

I thank you for your input, but I am not too worried about it at all. Our marriage is quite strong, and in fact, it occurs to me that our marriage has advantages that tradition marriages do not.

For one thing, if she has an extramarital fling, I will know about it the very next time we talk, whereas in a traditional marriage, the cheating spouse will typically try to keep it a secret as long as possible.

You might not think that is a big deal, and I used think it wasn't a big deal, but during the years she was keeping her affair a secret, our marriage was hell. She had so much guilt and remorse it was tearing her and us apart. She would spontaeously cry for no reason. Once she said it was because she was thinking about her cat that died. The cat had been dead for 5 years. Another time she started crying while we were having sex.

The closest we ever came to divorce was when she was keeping that secret and I couldn't figure out why I couldn't make her happy.

Another advantage of our arrangement is that not very many men could offer her more freedom than I have. It is very unlikely that she would leave me anyway. She is crazily in love with me, but it doesn't make sense that she would leave me for someone who would, in all likelihood, offer her a more restrictive relationship. I am giving her the freedom to have as few or as many flings as she wants, and still come back to me with open arms and passionate kisses. Do you honestly think she could find a better deal than that?

I don't worry at all about our marriage. She isn't going to be out hunting cock at age 70. She is going to be hanging out with me watching PBS. She is the woman I will grow old with and the reason she is that woman is because she and I have a marriage that is perfect for us. If we had maintained our marriage as it was before, we would be probably end up divorced. This "open marriage" business saved our marriage.

I know that like I know I am sitting here typing these words.

Good point, and in fact, that's why I wasn't even sure if it could be called an "open marriage". As I said, the only other couple we knew in an open marriage were two horny creeps who used to get each other laid. He would hunt for guys for his wife, and she would hunt for chicks for him.

I take that back. When I was in the Navy, there was a guy who was supposedly in an "open marriage" but the way he talked about it... man, he was really uncomfortable. He tried to act like he was all cool with it, but the more he talked, the more I suspected that SHE wanted the open marriage so that she could fuck other men while he was at sea. I really believed that was what was going on.

Thats what most open marriages I hear about turn into which is why I think its so often a bad idea. Often its brought up by the man, but the man quickly finds out how much easier it is for a woman to find casual sex.

What you have wouldn't work for me, I don't trust other people enough to trust my wife in those situations. I have faith in her, its my fellow man I don't trust. Of course what my wife and I have wouldn't work for most people either so I'm not being judgemental.

Would she get upset if you got some when you aren't in the country?

Have you ever tested this out?

Would there be a problem if her number got to be much higher than yours?

Whoa there, my Canadian friend.

Hold your horses, eh! :lol:

I made it clear in my post that I have trust issues, but hope the poster can make things work for him. I was not judgemental about his choice of lifestyle - that is never my style.

I was saying that the question in the OP was one that I would not want to find myself in the position of having to resolve for my own life, as it's hard to think that I could trust anyone enough to live the way that is suggested here.

One piece of advice I'd give to the poster is that he ought to think about agreeing that he be the second person to find out about his wife's intentions, not the third.

I'd say that if either of them want to have a fling, they should run it past the other in the marriage BEFORE they tell the lucky flingee.

I was trying in my post to say that TRUST IS EVERYTHING and to achieve this requires great levels of discussion and openness.

Thank you. I ditto this too. Yesterday I started reading this thread and was .......well, interrupted and wanted to get back to it! However, I am so glad I waited on some of the comments made. But, I have no comments either way, I always have questions! LOL! But, that is just me! :D

So, can you answer those questions please? Except that I don't understand if her NUMBER gets higher than yours since you have let her have free reign for some time now! :lol:

And please, I am not making light of your situation, I just try and see the humor in most things. I find that humor is good for the soul. However, I have also found out that humor during the middle of sex "might" not be his idea of humor. Heh.............but that is another story for another time! :D

EDITED COMMENT(an add on) : And another thing that I found out reading through this thread is that most folks try and ............well, let me try and be politically correct on this and not bite the other poster........(at least I will try! LOL!)........

I find that other folks try and see something in your words and then make a judgement/opinion on your feelings or character because they either don't understand or don't want to be open-minded to an issue that they don't believe in themselves. But, I PERSONALLY think that you only wanted to know the term (and evaluation) of your relationship with your wife. Is that not correct? I understand this concept for I think I annalyze most things to the ground! :D

Point noted, my english friend.:)
I just wanted an excuse to post the link as I thought it might be helpful.

Whatever works works I suppose although I pity the man who tries to "date" while with me...

...now where DID I put those bolt cutters...

^^^^ :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll share mine if you can't find yours. :thumbsup:

That's the ol' "open marriage" spirit!

Elph and I will only charge you $300 to watch! :D

Mr. Elph insists on $1000 since he claims it will require three surgeons with chain saws. :D

I would try dating around if I were you. Test out the waters on her ability to handle it. She has shown she has no qualms about breaking her vows with you, but the true test is if she is ok when she sees you with another girl. Open marriages will NOT work unless both sides are truely equal.

Not true. There absolutely are stable, solid relationships in which one person has the freedom to date outside and the other person isn't interested or for some other reason doesn't have that freedom. Whatever a couple agrees on and works for them, works. It's really not your or my or anyone else's place to make grand statements about what will work and what won't--people will surprise you with what they can create and have work for them.

ratbastid I know you are trying this and personally I'm worried for you long term.

There is a big difference to me between casual sex, being poly, and going on a 1-1 dating situation.

This paragraph bears repeating and emphasis. I have a friend who has all kinds of guys on the side while her husband is deployed overseas. And as much as she loves to reassure me that it's all good, I'm having a hell of a tough time buying it.

If you can look in the mirror and go to bed and feel that everything's alright, by all means, don't let my unimformed prejudice about the situation stop you from doing it. But if there's any whisper of doubt anywhere in your brain, stand up for yourself. There's nothing worse than a relationship in which one person is taking advantage of the other and the other doesn't put his foot down. You're better off not being in a relationship than you are being in a relationship in which you're not respected and have no control.

Ok. I appreciate your concern, but I'm confused by this.

What exactly do you think polyamory is?

A better question is what do you think it is?

All I can determine from a message board I frequent with a poly forum is most polys don't really have a clue to this question either.

To me it would have to be a together thing, with everyone in the group being 'equal' in terms of love etc.

What I find are terms like 'secondary', and question like 'Would it upset you if your secondary looked for their own primary' and other even more confused people. Some seem to be swingers that don't want to say that love and sex can be seperate, some are basically harems. I see a lot of FMF's where its a husband and bi-wife who picked up a younger stray female along the way.

What I think would be very bad though is a situation where two women love a man but don't love each other. What makes one fall in love I don't know but I'm not a romantic, its chemical, and its hard to be rational about it. I've seen this as a topic time and time again, and its always a disaster for someone. This is why I think 1-1 dating is bad.

I'd say MFM poly would be even worse in this case, but you almost never see that, as men are still men, and MFM goes against their nature. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but if you knew a couple were a triad and would be given money by guessing if it were MFM or FMF, the safe money is always on the FMF.

I was sort of disapointed from my investigation of poly relationships. It seems that few are able to last long term, (though my money is on the MFF+ types being the only ones who could make it) and most seem no different than swinging with close friends.

Unless you get to play around, it's a one-way open marriage. I don't understand it myself. How would she feel if you acted the same way?

Ustwo: You're mistaken or operating from poor assumptions on several levels here. I suspect you're bringing a swinger's view of things to polyamory. I don't know what other view you'd bring, of course, given that you've got experience with the one and not the other.

It's not that there's any particular type of relationship or poly-family structure that works and others that don't. People make whatever works for them work, end of story. There are plenty of relationships where one woman has two men. There are plenty where one man has two women who aren't with each other. Happens all the time.

The only guideline here is: Does everyone know and does everyone consent? If so, it's polyamory. Now, there are people who get into it for lousy reasons--same as swinging. There are people who are curious and try it and it doesn't work for them. There are people who get into it with good intentions, it works for a while, and they quit doing the work (putting jealousies to bed takes WORK!) and it goes to hell for them. But it's a mistake to turn that into "X type of relationship is fundamentally unstable". For every example you can find, I can find counter-examples. Whether it works out or not has a lot more to do with the individuals than some "IS" or "ISN'T" about it.

I'm finding myself drawn to defend my lifestyle here, which my rational mind knows is unnecessary. I do appreciate your worrying about us, but trust me when I say, we've worked out everything we need to work out to be very comfortable with our choices, and we're clear we're both committed to doing the work in the future.

Taken to PM's, to far off the OP I think at this point :thumbsup:

Interesting stuff UsTwo and Ratbastid. I hate to think we lost our OP. Hurry back Player! Jeeze. I want to see the answer to our questions. I'm curious! :D

Good replies all. I would be happy to sit and write a long response, but I simply can't. I am sorry.

Can I, for now, suffice to say that her 'numbers' and my 'numbers' don't matter? I am actually gently encouraging her to have her first fling with my knowledge and consent.

As far as her reaction to me having a fling, it wouldn't be as good. She told me, she would tolerate it, but she can't smile about the idea of it, like I can smile about the idea of her having her fling. And actually, that's ok by me. Someone in the thread said that what matters is what we have worked out for our own mutual benefit (or words to that effect) and this is what we have worked out.

I am not interested in pursuing pussy outside the marriage. She has already shown that, upon occassion (about once per decade or so) she can become interested in finding cock outside of the marriage. If she is overcome with the desire to fuck someone, she can.

I wish I had time to write more, but I can't now. Can you wait for about 12 days for a far more detailed answer?

Cheers

Sounds like we are moving into the Hot Wife catigory here.

From what I gather most these guys are not really interested in other women , and I'm not sure if MFM qualifies as a 'hot wife' but its a wikki piece. Can't say I understand it, but it seems to work for people.

Honestly, I think the "putting a term on it" will cause more problems then it's worth.

I generally am a "term" person and I try to find the proper name/name with the right characteristics to go along with what's going on. However, I also found that term ended up limiting what I was doing, made me more confused, caused more guilt, etc. So, if you're anything like me, forget the term.

As for you and your wife, honestly, what works in each relationship is different for every single couple out there. It's hard to believe that only the few terms that exist are acceptable and encompass all the issues and situations that come along with relationships.

I guess the most I can say is: kudos for you and your wife. As long as the communication is clear and honest, there shouldn't be any problems.

Wow. This just gets deeper and deeper.

About 'terms'..........well, sometimes it helps to define groups/ associations/organizations which help the reader to determine what the heck is going on. LIKE ME! LOL!

Holy cow. Does Barnes & Nobles carry this topic UsTwo?

Well, I just want her to get her first consentual fling out of the way.

There are several reasons for this, but the conversation that made me decide that she needs to have one required fling went something like this:

Me: "Honey, if you had a fling this week, and I got home next week, I know you would tell me about it, but how would you tell me?"

She: "I don't know"

Me: "Would you cry when you told me?"

She: "Maybe"

Me: "But you would tell me, right?"

She: "Yes, of course. I promised I would and I would"

Me: "But you don't know if you would cry or not?"

She: "No"

There were a couple of other reasons, that I can't really get into now, that were making me start to think that she might need to have one fling and get it out of the way, but this conversation was the clincher.

Later I asked her: After you have that first fling, will the next one, even if it is years later, will it be easier to tell me about?

And she said: Oh yes, of course! It will be much easier.

That is when I told her that she needs to have one. After her required fling, she can have as few or as many as she likes, but she must have one.

As I said, there are a few other reasons. One other reason, a far less important reason, is that when she cheated on me, the sex was so bad. She said she deserved bad sex for doing something so immoral and stupid, but I told her she never deserves bad, boring sex. If she was going to risk our marriage, the sex should have at least been worth it.

But as I said, that is a less important reason. The reason above was the clincher, and there are two other reasons that I just cannot get into, but I can tell you that the other two reasons have nothing to do with me wanting to watch.

First, I'm not getting into the value and stability of polyamorous marriages. I don't know enough about them to fairly judge, but I don't believe that my judgment is really relevant. What works for a couple is what works for them, even when it isn't something I'd be interested in.

However, I do have to take issue with your statment here. You know yourself better than anybody else here, so you can say with some certainty what your view of your marriage is. I won't dispute that. But to generalize that to everyone is simply inaccurate.

No one could ever promise that.

Complete nonesense. People can, and do promise just that in full sincerity.

To promise that means to say that you can see into the future and you know that there is no possible circumstance under which you would ever have sex with someone other than your chosen mate.

Again, nonsense. A promise isn't precognition, it's a commitment to behave in a certain way, a way of focusing yourself on what is important to you and profiding incentive to honor what is important. It's a statement of intent to do what it is in your ability to control to honor that promise. That we are imperfect and may not always be able to keep our commitments does not mean that making them is foolish. Having goals and ideals and striving to meet those goals and live up to those ideals is important.

It's just pure, traditionalist stupidity to me.

I'm happy for you that you've come to a realization about what is best for you and for your marriage. I'm not one to judge other people's relationships. I know of a family that consists of a triad, a married couple and the woman's transsexual girlfriend, and their child. Because it works for them, I have no problem with it.

I, however, am comitted to just one person and she to me. It isn't exactly "traditional" (I don't think anything about my family is really traiditional in the mainstream family structure way), but we are traditionally monogamous in that we don't, and won't sleep with others. It's not a matter of jealousy or insecurity or not being able to communicate with each other--we're very solid in all those areas--it's that we've decided that outside romantic relationships would detract from our core commitment to each other.

It's good that you've discovered that traditional monogamy doesn't work for you. You now have information that you lacked, which can only strengthen what you have (assuming your judgment on this is sound). But that monogamy doesn't work for you does not mean that it's unsuitable for others. It can, and does work, and it isn't stupid if it's what is best for the couple involved.

Gilda

Similar experience
 

Let me start by thanking you for opening this thread. I came across it while looking for others who are going through what I am. So, with that, I will give you a little bit about my wife and I and how we have negotiated a path very similar to yours. I haven't had time to read your entire thread, but I have read enough of the messages to understand and relate to where you are coming from. We have been together for 17 years and married for 15.

I am a soldier, currently in the National Guard, but I have been either in the Guard or Active Duty for 15 years. About 7 years ago, my wife revealed to me that she had had a sexual relationship with one of the wives of a soldier in my unit some 5 years previous. We were in Germany at the time, and spent an average of 6 months "in the field", or away from home. In those days, I was a very religious person who led a church group on post, and I never saw any of this going on. In fact, I was in bible studies with the woman involved, and years later, my wife told me the real reason she was in our apartment so much. To say the least, I was shocked and amazed that I could be so blind. I lead men in combat, and yet I was so poorly tuned into female needs, that I realized something was terribly wrong in my life. My whole perspective began to change, and much like the title of this forum, I began to evolve away from traditional thinking. I was a naive, religious young man when I first joined the military. Once I began to see the end result of religious fundamentalism, I began moving away from religion. I understand it's purpose in society, but I don't have much use for it after seeing cultures like Bosnia and Islamic Afghanistan. Religion, of course is one of the largest obstacles keeping us in line, or at least preventing us from living more progressive and enlightened lives. We came to a similar agreement about what you refer to as traditionalist stupidity.

We first began discussing the possibility of even considering something like letting people inside our relationship not long after the "revelation" circa 1999. We spent the next 5 years talking about it and exhausting every possible option if it were to ever present itself. We live in a very conservative region of the US, so the likelihood was doubtful anyway. About 2 years ago, while I was away again with the Army, my wife was better able to tell me what was going on in her life. We didn't have email when the first experience occurred, and she was too afraid to tell me 12 years ago. By 2004, email was so integrated into our lives, that communication was almost hard to go without. She told me that she wanted to pursue a relationship with a couple we had been friends and talking with since she and I had begun looking at evolving. I consented this time with rules that are almost word-for-word the same as yours.

It is good to see someone else with the same thought process. My thinking was that she should be safe, happy, and balanced. I also agree with your comment that we cannot possibly see decades down the road of life and think that a promise today will cover all of the life's experiences and maturation we go through as modern, educated adults.

I went on with the military schools I was in and she forged ahead. When I got home, she consented to my involvement (indeed she insisted), and I suddenly immersed myself into this foreign and new world. It was great at first, but the forces of society were close behind, and we began to tear apart as a result. We had spent 5 years discussing the role and nature of jealousy, but it is it's own force when you are dealing with it real-world. Not only that, but the other two involved were showing signs of strain, in particular the wife. She had been the most insistent about all of us getting involved, and yet my wife with her husband proved to be too much for her. The relationship deteriorated into shouting matches, and after a trip to their family farm in Minnesota, we cut it off. I am still friends with them to this day, but we all understand that it wasn't meant to be. The sex was incredible, with discussions of tantric spirituality and evolving human culture, but the aftermath was pure hell. That experience was harder than Ranger school will ever be.

Ironically, our marriage became much stronger as a result of that. We had the most and the best sex of our lives with each other during those months. My wife and I discovered that with experiencing another partner, there is a reclaiming process we had to go through very soon after. Making love to my wife afterward was as important to her as it was to me to confirm that we are and will always be the final arrangement. Hopefully this makes sense.

Now, I am in Afghanistan and we are back to the same discussions. This time it is a guy she works with, whom I know and like, and he is very much into martial arts, eastern philosophy, and healthy living. She has indicated she would like to pursue a relationship with him while I am here for a year. I am fine with the two being together, but all of this took an unexpected turn. In addition to your three rules, I have an additional one that if she becomes pregnant, our marriage is over. I have two kids with her (one boy, one girl), and I want to ensure they stay the focus of their parents. I will not ask her to split her time to prioritize between who's kids are important. I'll raise mine, and she will raise hers. This may come off as cold heartedness, but for me, it is a matter of dedication.

Now I know you are thinking she came up pregnant, but she did not. Indeed, she has not slept with him yet. Yet. What the unexpected turn was, though, turned out to be a sharp turn in her view of my role as a husband. She began to throw accusations at me (via email of course) about not being there to be a helping husband and father. It all was irrational to me, but I tried to understand her needs and see through what looked like a bunch of bullshit. In the end, it turned out her consciousness was weighing on her and I was the scapegoat for feeling of guilt. She was feeling guilty for wanting to pursue someone outside our marriage while I am in harm's way. While she wasn't pregnant (he is "fixed"), he has left his estranged wife, and my opinion is that the momentum started is a only a matter of time before they have sex. She is a very powerful, sexual woman, and while I can keep up with her when I am home, I like you, am away from home a lot. I provide everything I can for her, she has plenty of money for living and saving for the future, but I am not always there to pick up the kids from school, or go to soccer and football practices. She was so negative at one point, I began to go through an MDMP-like (military decision making process) process and outlined 3 options for us in the months to come. We could either 1) stay together and work through this experience, 2) legally separate, or 3) divorce. I laid out detailed, step by step taskings and procedures for her in each option along with a warning that life would not be easy for either of us under options 2 or 3. When we exhausted all the what-ifs and what-is-really-going-ons, she agreed that option one is what she wants.

I have worked to define what I have, and the closest term I can come to is what Wikipedia refers to as a "mono/poly relationship". I have a lot more aversion to taking another partner mostly due to my upbringing and social history. I have always been in all-males units and have had the military sexual harrassment policy hammered into my head for so long, I tend to avoid women. While I have had an open relationship as I mentioned, it was not a rewarding enough experience to really appeal to me. Hence the mono side. My wife, on the other hand, feels differently and is driven from inside to walk a different path from most of society. Hence the poly side. I know she has too much love to keep all to myself, and she has needs that I am not always present to satisfy. I write poetry, and enjoy long, philosophical emails, but words are not enough at times in our lives. Actions, sometimes are as important as words.

I commend you for your bravery. You are not alone, and while it may seem like it at times, there are others like us in this world. I guess I'm just mainly offering up my support and encouragement to keep on keeping on. As you indicated, our lives and marriages are much richer as a result. While what we are experiencing is nothing new, history is full of stories that our lives mimic. For us, though it is new, and it is very personal. We are Warriors of Love, really, and we are forging trails, like those throughout history before us, that I hope others will follow some day.

-Cavalryman

P.S.
I wanted to add a last-minute blip about the the societal non-acceptance. I knew going into this years ago that this is one of those sub-cultures that you accept must be kept under the surface. If anyone were to ask me about it, I have no problem discussing it, but I will not volunteer my details. I have a guy in my unit who has what I can only define as a swinging marriage. He always has a weary and slightly sad tone when he talks about it. He is very vocal about it, and yet I have never fealt the need to confide any similar experience. In truth, though, I don't have a similar experience. He has lamented on how taxing it can be to come home and not know who is going to be there when he walks in. His wife is in law school (late bloomer), and she demands the right to be free to do whatever. I, on the other hand, have never been exposed directly to swinging, and don't have any interest. My wife has only moved on her interests twice (this new one may be the third), and it is not without a significant investment of her time and energy to know the person(s). Bottom line, I accept that there are only certain places where even talking about this is possible. The other thing is I am secure enough in myself and our relationship that harsh, mean, or intentionally hurtful words are just "chatter". You take what good you can from this life and the rest is left by the wayside. One thing I know without hesitation is that life is short. Shorter for some than most, but it is not worth letting complete strangers have any more of my time than I choose to give them.

I'm sorry, but this is insulting. I know you're here because left-leaning forums didn't give you the response you wanted, but calling the terms of traditional marriage foolishness isn't any better.

Sure they can, didn't you during your vows?

Again, why are you insulting just about everyone? How is it that you have it right?

I don't believe that for a second. You just wanted to get the response here that you didn't get in your other forum posts.

Personally, I have ZERO problem with the way you choose to run your marriage. People can run their lives however they see fit, as far as I'm concerned.

But don't look down upon me, or call me "unenlightened". If you want people to be accepting of your type of marriage, you need to at LEAST be AS accepting of everyone else's. Because as of this moment, I'm more liberal about this than you.

My wife and I choose fidelity. And just like you say some open marriages have one spouse who's simply not interested in looking for outside sex, why can't a marriage have two people like that? Why is that such a stretch?

I KNOW my wife isn't looking, and neither am I. We both love what we have. Our relationship and sex life is incredibly strong. We've been together for 15 years and I still enjoy her in the sack as much as I did when we were teenagers. We're the best of friends, too.

Have we had our problems? Sure, serious ones, too. But we don't have outside sex. We don't go on dates with others. I'm not a jealous man (she'd be the first to tell you), but a spouse who does things to provoke jealousy (intentionally or inconsiderately) is another issue.

And truth is, **IF** she cheated on me, I'd forgive her at least once, because I'm not willing to lose half my life's history to one bad choice. I'd never tell her that up front, mostly because she'd be insulted that I'd even consider she would....and I don't think she ever would.

God, that's SO true.

To me it does. We've had the same experience. After being with other people, it's really important for us to sexually "touch base".

Thanks for sharing everything you shared. Particularly the part about how you're communicating more deeply--that's absolutely what we've found as well.

Be safe over there!

Left-leaning forums?
 

Boy, this can be a tough crowd. I find it continually amazing how threatened people are about this subject. If EleqTrizi'T is that offended or insulted, find another thread and post away. It seems trendy to attack people from the secluded safety of a PC well out of range of return fire. My first impression was the same as yours when I finally had a real-world experience to speak from. I don't read your "traditionalist stupidity" comment as being thrown at those who disagree, it is simply a conclusion some of us have come to walking in our shoes down our pathway. I don't expect to see EleqTrizi'T anywhere close to the places my life has gone, but I don't hold that against the poster. Tolerance is something that is in short supply the world over. Believe me, after experiencing my limited contact with the Taliban, I have a much deeper understanding and respect for tolerant societies. Freedom, folks is not holding those you disagree with to the fire... or the hangman's noose.

-Cavalryman

For those who have fought for it freedom has a sweetness the protected will never know.

I attacked him? How? How did I express any intolerance?

All of that comes across to me as combative.

I saw the OP's first comments as a bit inflammatory too, Cavalryman. I think he was just saying (forcefully, I'll admit) that what's right for him isn't right for everyone.

It sort of seemed that the OP looked down on those that didn't agree with him - traditionalist stupidity.

Then again, I happen to side more with EleqTrizi'T, so it might just be that I see things through the same lens as him, and you and the OP do the same. I don't think anyone's said anything particularly offensive yet. We'll just agree to disagree.

Agree to disagree
 

I think that's the civil thing to do. Of course the OP referenced the vitriolic nature of those in the past who disagreed with his lifestyle choice. I too, have seen this and that is why I choose to keep it to a very close circle of friends. I don't want to offend or insult anyone with the way I live my life, but I also don't want people telling me I'm too far out of the norm. I spend enough time in an organization that demands conformity, when I come home to my quiet little house in my quiet little town, I want the freedom to live the way I choose. I also want the same for everyone in this thread.

For what it's worth...

It was, a little bit. But on the defensive. I was defending the way I choose to live my life as not foolishness, traditionalist stupity, or unenlightened, And it has nothing to do with what I've seen or done, as you've implied (which is also condescending and presumptuous, since you don't know me).

I saw it as completely unnecessary to attack monogamy to justify his own choices. That's NOT tolerance.

The OP said him and wife have agreed to terms that makes them happy. Bravo for them. But "traditionalist stupidy" works for me and mine, so bravo for me, too.

Yes, bravo for you. Good boy. You're OK.

You and I have a similar accomplishment of 15 years with our wives. That is common ground and I commend anyone who keeps it together that long. That is sincere. Do with it what you will.

Thank-you, I appreciate that. It's too bad that 15 years is an accomplishment these days, but that's another topic.

If this is what marriage looks like all the more reason not to do it. You say you're not jealous, but you refered to the other men in less than happy tones, so you're obviously not pleased with the situation.
I'm with the guy who says you like cuckholding.

Hagatha, can you rephrase please? Who's saying he likes cuckolding? (I'm probably just not seeing the reference somewhere in this topic, I read the beginning a while ago so it's a bit hazy).

(Oh, and btw, thank you for using that word, +1 to my vocabulary :D.)

This isn't true. You need to reread the thread. The man who his wife cheated with was referred to in less than friendly tones, but it was made very clear that he didn't like the man even before the cheating happened.

I have read the thread and I don't get the impression that "hot wife" or cuckholding has anything to with any of this at all. I just think that this couple (or these couples including the Army guy and his wife) have rejected traditionalism because it simply didn't work for them.

If something doesn't work, you abandon it and try something different. Makes sense to me.

The subject seems to stir emotions, but I have trouble understanding why.

I'm monogamous, but other people who swing, or whatever, don't bother me in the least. Maybe a great many wives perceive it as threatening, since they think their husbands envy that lifestyle.

Touching Base
 

It has been a couple of weeks since I posted last, and I thought I'd share an interesting realization for me. My wife did finally have a night with her friend, and afterward, we went through some strain. The communication which is key to making something like this work, fell off sharply. Normally we would have been able to "touch base" as ratbastid so well articulated, but of course being 7,000 miles away makes that impossible. After several emails and some long IMs back and forth, she shared with me that she is not able to do this right now. Not being able to connect with me physically, like we've done in the past, caused too much confusion. She began to see me negatively again and felt too out of sorts to do any more with her friend. This may seem like nothing new to some out there, but I was surprised. This is a fascinating journey to be on, and when I finally get to take some R&R leave early next year (we're meeting in Europe), I think our reconnection time will be even more significant.

So for now, we have agreed to keep things simple and not create a foundation for trouble. Sharing it seems comes with limitations for some of us, and I will also admit that our putting this on hold for now makes my days easier to get through. I am counting the days till I can meet her in southern Germany.

That's part of the deal sometimes. You get to say what works for the two of you. Congratulations for facing it down and learning one thing that doesn't work.