good example of Bush's values
 

your this man has morals and values:

http://home.comcast.net/~ketubah/ton...ory-salute.mov


mrb

looks like a regular guy to me.

and by the the way he also looks like the President who just recieved the most votes in electoral history, and also won by the largest margin since Reagan (I think)


Get over it.

I liked him as a person, too, as soon as I found out he was a smack head. prolly was a customer of mine at one time ;)

That is nothing to be proud of. It actually just makes 59 million Americans look extremely foolish for re-electing this guy. In my opinion the only thing this election proved for the rest of the world is how simple-minded most Americans really are.

Then you can be the first in line my friend, since you have such faith in the "president"

We want you!

**MOD** This thread is not being used to discuss a topic and, rather, is being used for personal jabs. This will not be tolerated. If you can't discuss topics civilly, this thread will be closed.

As a personal note:
I voted against Bush, and I disagree with a large part of evangelical thinking, however, I think it's important to provide some reason to the discussion.

Yes, Christian evangelicals largely voted for Bush this election. Many other demographics did as well. 43% of people who are NOT white evangelical or born-again Christians voted for Bush, 52% of Catholics, 25% of Jews, 23% of other and 31% of none. Bush was not elected by only Christian evangelicals.

That aside, I think you are making a poor comparison of the morals these people espouse. One moral opinion of theirs which guided their votes was regarding abortion. Evangelical Christians believe abortion is the killing of a human being. Flipping off a camera is hardly a comparison. Another is their opposition to gay marriage. While, clearly, most people feel this is a matter of civil rights, evangelical Christians view gay marriages as a crime against nature. However wrong that may be, flipping off a camera is hardly something to be considered hypocrisy of that viewpoint.

[QUOTE=Flyguy]Then you can be the first in line my friend, since you have such faith in the "president"QUOTE]

He was the best man in the race.

I'm just saying, that things like the link provided have nothing to do with who he is now and how he has acted as President.

Had Kerry been a viable alternative he would have won.

Lots of people are not happy with Bush, but you can't win by simply stating your not the other guy.

[QUOTE=Warf Rat]
would you otherwise be a democrat?

because I got to say, if so, the thing I see afflicting that party the most is not the distance it has from the constructed center, or out of touchness it may or may not have, but the cannibalism within it.

I rarely, no never, see such cannibalism in the media from repubs to one another. they always have this remarkable penchant to stay on party in the popular discourse despite deep riffs that exist. it foments this tribalism, with no condescension from me at all, that's fucking powerful.

Really? So how does the world view the dems for re-electing Marion Barry a CONVICTED crack smoker and felon?

I assume you mean the guy who got the most popular votes in history cause he did not come close to getting the most electoral votes in history. Reagan won every electoral vote available except for the those of MN and the District in 84.

ON the moral issues...why is it that these christians are against abortion but the death penalty is OK? Thats where i get confused??

mrb

I can tell you that one.

They say that a unborn babie are innocent while those on death row are convicted murderers.

Well, I cannot think of many conservatives or liberals whom I know that do not support the death penalty. I think most people I know would agree that the whole purpose of jail is to eliminate the problem from society. The death penalty does this easily.

That said, I believe your stereotypes are wrong. I'm sure some Christians believe abortion is wrong. However, I'm a Christian and I know others that support abortion if used appropriately(moderation for emegencies rather than for birth control). My only problem with it, for example, is when a girl has 5 abortions because she's too lazy to pick up the pill or use other protection.

On the Christians you refer to, I believe many Christians feel that abortion is the killing of something innocent. However, these criminals going through the death penalty are not innocent. I would think that belief is the reason some christians do not support abortion. They feel it is not only a violation of their beliefs but also the laws set forth by the government.

100000 iraqis that have died in this war were inocent, and the war continues and yet the moral right is the big movement in this cuntry.

mrb

Think again. As a % of electoral votes both Bush (HW) (vs. Dukakis) and Clinton (both vs. Bush (HW) and Dole) had much wider margins with 79.18%, 68.77%, and 70.45% respectively compared to Bush's (W) (potential, since they have not officially been cast yet) 53.16% in 2004. And, while it may be true that Bush (W) is the first President to win with over 50% of the popular vote in recent years (since his father beat Dukakis actually with 53.37%), the % by which he won is by the slimmest margin since Carter beat Ford in 1976 (Carter won by only 2% in the popular vote).

And, just as a personal note, I am already sick of hearing how Bush won with the most popular votes of any presidential candidate ever (Kerry holds the record for the loser with the most votes). So more people voted in this election then ever before, this just goes to show how deeply divided the political landscape has become. The high voter turnout might also be attributed (at least in part) to the fact that we have a higher national population today then at any other time in our country’s history. This will be another one of those “statistics” that republican rhetoricians will be banging on for the next four years, but when taken in context has no real significant meaning.

(all statistical data from: http://www.uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/ )

Exactly....Does anybody on the right understand that this isn't supposed to be a regular guy, this is supposed to be a president.

More people voted AGAINST Bush than ever have happened in our nation's history. It's all a question of how you spin it.

this is exactly right. When you are the alleged leader of the free world you are held to a more stringent standard than the everyman. It's just the way it is. On another note, his "victory salute" line should tell everyone listening and both parties exactly how much he is willing to "unite."

Except that we are all born in sin, right? So if a person isn't baptized, he goes to hell when he dies. An aborted or stillborn baby just takes the express train to hell, if you extrapolate fundamentalist beliefs. Maybe that's what pisses them off about abortion?

All I want is an internally consistent argument. Either be like me (pro-choice and pro-death penalty) or be against both.


EDIT: I think "An aborted or stillborn baby just takes the express train to hell" might be the most offensive thing I've ever said.

That isn't Roman Catholic doctrine.

I can't speak to the more fundamentalists sects.

Also, Lebell, If you are of a religious persuasion and think that it is god alone's duty to judge man, then how the hell do you justify passing the ultimate judgement on man (i.e. the death penalty). As you mentioned, a little consistancy would be nice. (And Kerry was the "flip-flopper?")

I can't speak for Lebell, but I am Catholic and opposed to both. That is also the official position of the Catholic Church. The death penalty is fully unnecessary today.

what's interesting is that the catholics parse between original sin, as a cause, and original sin, as an effect. presumably to deal with some of these thorny issues of whether babies are innocent (but not necessarily due to aborition debates--just general discomfort with the notion of babies dying and where they go when they do).


all that to say, adam transmits his sin down through his progeny, but although babies are born with it, it merely predisposes them to sin. not makes them guilty of it. so left to grow up as a normal person, presumably they would eventually sin without grace and salvation.


evangelicals and fundies think that one is sinful at birth. but they parse between when a person is held accountable for their sin. think of the different denominations and whether they baptise as adults or children, and you'll see this split in belief playing out. I think that virtually all (I know of none) denominations do not go so far as to condemn children to hell at birth. that's pretty radical in that it seems inpalatable to the congregation--so it's usually sloughed off on god's grace or a great mystery.


so the real trick becomes why they would oppose abortion, since the actual express train is not the hell--but before the grace of the creator. you'd think they'd rejoice for the baby not having to suffer through a life of sin like they must. just like we might logically expect people to rejoice when their loved ones pass on, at least if they really believe the relative was saved. but that doesn't happen, hopefully it isn't an indication of a lack of faith. but that's not for me to judge

Hmm,

You're reading too much into my post, as I was only answering the question, not taking on the position.

However, I never said it was God's duty alone to judge man.

this is about the 3rd thread on here of seen on this. It's still funny tho.
I don't know if I should feel more respect for him now or not..........I thought it was cool.

lebell--that doctrine of original sin comes straight out of augustine's city of god.
i dont know if that is still part of catholic doctrine, but it certainly is part of its tradition.

I actually didn't mean you personally, Lebell, sorry that it came out that way.

Yeah, is this supposed to bother me? It's actually a little bit funny. If this anyone's main reason why we should not like the guy, I don't get it. If there are others, then you have most assuredly buried your lead. "Get over it" doesn't even cover this thread.

I am aware of that.

Augustine of Agrippa is responsible for much of the current views of morality in the Catholic church.

I don't really like Bush at all, but there was nothing really wrong with that video. A lot of people would do something like that.

God forbid someone have a sense of humor.

This is rather funny. Reminds me of the time Reagan not realizing his mike was on said "I have just signed a law outlawing Russia. We start bombing in five minutes."

Even stupider, if they've ever heard about it.

That said, though, at least Barry has acknowledged his past problems and promised to behave. Bush seems to promise more of the same.

Also, BTW, Barry didn't launch a war that killed thousands of people.

"The bitch set me up"