Most Bush Supporters: Intentionally ignorant or unable to process reality? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

OpieCunningham · 10-21-2004, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dy156

well, it had a bad title, but this idea could bring about some interesting discussion. I'll try my best to elevate this thing and even maybe allow some insight, too.

For every white-trash confederate flag waving moron who supports Bush, there is an equally out of touch treehugging peacenik hippie that supports Kerry. For every wealthy lawyer that supports kerry, there is an even wealthier doctor that supports Bush. For every brilliant professor that supports Kerry, there is a corporate vice president of something-or-other that supports Bush. For every billionaire that supports Kerry there are two millionaires that support Bush. You get the picture.

Yes. There are stupid people everywhere supporting anything.

But show me where the majority of Kerry's supporters support him because they believe in a known fantasy.

Quote:

The conclusions of this report are based on two false premises.
1. there was no link
While I think it is clear that Iraq did not have direct involvement with the 9/11 attackers, the ongoing problems there and the influx of non-Iraqi islamic people wanting to destroy Americans and violently create havoc might lead one to believe that there is, in fact a link.

This is not a false premise of the report. It might lead someone to believe there is a link - but the reality is that there was no link. It is not a false premise of the report that people believe something which is not true. That is actually the entire premise of the report.

Quote:

2. as was stated earlier, the presumption that support of the war in iraq meant a belief that wmd existed in iraq. Personally, I thought Bush was using the possibility of WMD as justification, or an excuse, to enter war, and make it more palatable to the world to do so. It was a very good justification, if true, but I for one, and at least one other poster above would have supported an invasion of Iraq even if there had not been "proof" of WMD.

This is all past-tense. We're talking about people that currently believe the fantasy that Iraq had WMDs. And I have already addressed the question of why I am claiming that these people are basing their decisions on this fantasy: I find it hard to believe that someone who very likely says that they support Candidate X because he is tough on terror and Iraq is good does not base a LARGE portion of that support on their belief in the fantasy that Iraq had WMDs and a connection with Al Qaeda.

Quote:

You could just as easily create a questionaire and ask Kerry supporters about economic issues like, have the bush tax cuts helped the rich and hurt the poor? Kerry supporters would likely say yes.

Except there are many experts on both sides who will give you their opinion on both sides of the tax issue. There are no experts who now believe Iraq had WMDs or a connection with Al Qaeda. This is not a question of which opinion do you believe, it is an issue of believing something which has been repeatedly demonstrated to be false with no evidence of its' validity.

We could argue over the color of the sky - you could say it's neon green and I could say it's blue. I can walk outside and prove my opinion, but you cannot prove it is neon green. Therefore the belief that the sky is neon green is a fantasy.

Kalibah · 10-21-2004, 04:38 PM

Now create a thread calling them stupid teheh

djtestudo · 10-21-2004, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

How does one undo dissonence? This is Mass Dissonence. It is simple to undo dissonance with one or two people, but we are talking about a good percentage of the entire country. The only way for us to undo it is for Bush to alienate this group, which is virtually impossible. I'm all for electro-shock therepy, but that's probalby out of the question. Ther is not short term fix for this. Bush losing is the only way to fix this in reality.

You know, sometimes there are true political reasons to vote for somebody.

Other times, it is just to keep one group out of power.

Despite the fact that I like what Bush has done and would vote for him over any Democrat, the second reason is quickly passing the first reason, especially the more I come on here and read stuff like this.

And they're calling Bush supporters ignorant.

Willravel · 10-21-2004, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunnychile

Better yet, Check out THIS Gem of information before You Vote...

http://nixtro.com/pentagon

If anyone would like to know, this is all threaded already in the Paranoia section under 'Mystery of the Dissapearing 757".

Mojo_PeiPei · 10-21-2004, 04:39 PM

Well if I'm not grounded in reality, this just makes no sense

Quote:

Polish troops find sarin warheads in Iraq
WARSAW (AP) — Polish troops have found two warheads in Iraq believed to contain a deadly nerve agent, but it is not clear what period the weapons came from, the Defense Ministry said Thursday.
The two warheads were found in early June in a bunker in the area controlled by Polish forces, and they tested positive for cyclosarin, a substance many times stronger than sarin, the ministry said in a statement.

"There is no doubt that the warheads contain chemical weapons," Defense Minister Jerzy Szmajdzinski told TVN24. "The problem is what period they came from, whether the (Persian) Gulf War or earlier, and whether they were usable, partly usable or not at all."

Another dozen were found later in June and were being tested in Baghdad and the United States, he said.

"Some of them are very corroded. They are probably not usable, but are dangerous to the local environment," Szmajdzinski said.

In May, an artillery shell apparently filled with the sarin nerve agent was discovered at the side of the road in Baghdad by U.S. forces.

Officials at the time stopped short of claiming the munition was definite evidence of a large weapons stockpile in prewar Iraq or evidence of recent production by Saddam Hussein's regime.

Poland sent troops to the U.S.-led war to oust Saddam Hussein and commands some 6,200 international troops — including some 2,400 from Poland — in south-central Iraq.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...aq-sarin_x.htm

Did the UN resolutions say he was allowed to have those? Oh wait that's right, they were illegal.

But I wonder, I mean you being so objective and grounded in reality, what lie are you going to tell yourself that this is not truly the reality of the situation.

OpieCunningham · 10-21-2004, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Ther is not short term fix for this. Bush losing is the only way to fix this in reality.

But I don't think that is even going to do anything except solidify the dissonance.

Willravel · 10-21-2004, 04:52 PM

Mojo_PeiPei, that was back in July. Do you know what the results of the tests were? Or did you just cling to that for 3 months?

Just FYI this is a report from the next day about your warheads http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...?nav=rss_world

"The Coalition Press Information Center in Baghdad said in a statement yesterday that the 122-milimeter rocket rounds, which initially showed traces of sarin, "were all empty and tested negative for any type of chemicals." The statement came just hours after two senior Polish defense officials told reporters in Warsaw, based on preliminary reports, that the rocket rounds contained deadly sarin and that actions by the Polish unit in Iraq kept them from being purchased by militants fighting coalition forces."

That's NEGATIVE FOR ANY TYPES OF CHEMICALS. That's no lie, that's fact checking. You can't just look at the papers for one day and call it an opinion. The problem is that you were so sure you were right, you started to act superior to those trying to solve a problem here. There were NO ILLEGAL WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION FOUND IN IRAQ. I can't believe that you fell into the group this thread is trying to help so well.

OpieCunningham · 10-21-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Now since the economy is obviously better, does this mean that most Kerry supporters are intentionally ignorant or unable to process reality?

This would be a good point (and after your 3 or 4 non-points in this thread, I have to say I'm totally shocked!)

Except for the reality that there are two ways to view the question - one of which demonstrates that the Republicans believe in a fantasy and the other where the Democrats believe in a fantasy. If the question is about the national economy as it pertains to the financial health of businesses, the Republicans are correct. If the question is about the national economy as it pertains to the financial health of the people, the Democrats are correct.

It would also benefit your point if you could demonstrate that the primary reason the people believing the economy is not better than one year ago are largely basing their decision to support Kerry on that fantasy.

Willravel · 10-21-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

But I don't think that is even going to do anything except solidify the dissonance.

Let's look at Mojo_PeiPei as an example. Here is a person that knew in his/her mind that there were WMDs found in Iraq for the last 3 and a half months. Just now, I corrected that belief. I explained that the next day the news said that the test came back negative. How do you think he'she will respond? He'she may think it's bullshit and I'm a liar. He/she may see the error in his/her ways and learn something. The problems is that no one can address everyone about mistakes like this. I wish I could go on CNN and debate someone on this, just to get the mesage out. The reality is that so many are efected by it that it's impossible to get to everyone.

Kalibah · 10-21-2004, 05:00 PM

Yes because CNN is fair and balanced

Ustwo · 10-21-2004, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OpieCunningham

This would be a good point (and after your 3 or 4 non-points in this thread, I have to say I'm totally shocked!)

Except for the reality that there are two ways to view the question - one of which demonstrates that the Republicans believe in a fantasy and the other where the Democrats believe in a fantasy. If the question is about the national economy as it pertains to the financial health of businesses, the Republicans are correct. If the question is about the national economy as it pertains to the financial health of the people, the Democrats are correct.

It would also benefit your point if you could demonstrate that the primary reason the people believing the economy is not better than one year ago are largely basing their decision to support Kerry on that fantasy.

The people are suffering still eh?

I know this always goes away suddenly when a democrat is elected (IE no one mentions the 'homeless') but give me a break. Since most of the economic growth has been in small businesses, just who are 'the people?'.

Also is doesn't answer why they would focus on mistakes which would be more likely to snare a republican then a democrat. Both people may well be uninformed but they were such that an uninformed democrat would 'guess' or assume correctly.

And mind you this is just for the year. So despite the fact that the economy has grown, unemployment is down, yadda yadda KERRY supporters think its worse by an over whelming majority. Sounds pretty shall I say 'stupid' to me.

OpieCunningham · 10-21-2004, 05:05 PM

Willravel - Yes. I see this as the biggest problem our society faces today. There seems to be no method of breaking the cycle - it feeds on itself and grows.

Willravel · 10-21-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalibah

Yes because CNN is fair and balanced

What? Are you even reading the posts, or are you scanning voer them and looking for things to try and attack. It's odd because this is the second time you've tried to debate me on something i didn't say. I know CNN isn't fair and balanced, that's why I want to go on. K?

OpieCunningham · 10-21-2004, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

The people are suffering still eh?

I don't have the figures in front of me right now and I haven't viewed them in about a month (so if you were to ask me the question you posted, I would base my answer on the information I presently have) - that information states that there has been no increase in payrolls even while there has been a marginal increase in jobs*. It also states that corporate profits have increased dramatically.

* Even the apparent marginal increase in jobs is questionable when one considers that in the past 13 months, approximately 1.7 million jobs have been created WHILE 1.95 million new people enter the workforce (approx. 150,000 per month). A net loss in employment.

Quote:

Also is doesn't answer why they would focus on mistakes which would be more likely to snare a republican then a democrat.

More likely to snare a Republican than a Democrat? I just assumed you were joking with that line of argument earlier. Are you really suggesting that it is a partisan question to ask if someone believes that Iraq had WMDs?

Lebell · 10-21-2004, 05:17 PM

You know better.

Threads that intentionally bait the opposition are verboten.

This would have been closed the same as if you replaced "Bush" with "Kerry".

Three day bannination, heading towards permanent.

And no, I hate playing the heavy.

*grrrr*

10-21-2004, 05:17 PM	#55 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	You know better. Threads that intentionally bait the opposition are verboten. This would have been closed the same as if you replaced "Bush" with "Kerry". Three day bannination, heading towards permanent. And no, I hate playing the heavy. grrrr __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

10-21-2004, 04:38 PM	#42 (permalink)
Kalibah Insane Location: Padded Playhouse	Now create a thread calling them stupid teheh

10-21-2004, 04:52 PM	#47 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Mojo_PeiPei, that was back in July. Do you know what the results of the tests were? Or did you just cling to that for 3 months? Just FYI this is a report from the next day about your warheads http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...?nav=rss_world "The Coalition Press Information Center in Baghdad said in a statement yesterday that the 122-milimeter rocket rounds, which initially showed traces of sarin, "were all empty and tested negative for any type of chemicals." The statement came just hours after two senior Polish defense officials told reporters in Warsaw, based on preliminary reports, that the rocket rounds contained deadly sarin and that actions by the Polish unit in Iraq kept them from being purchased by militants fighting coalition forces." That's NEGATIVE FOR ANY TYPES OF CHEMICALS. That's no lie, that's fact checking. You can't just look at the papers for one day and call it an opinion. The problem is that you were so sure you were right, you started to act superior to those trying to solve a problem here. There were NO ILLEGAL WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION FOUND IN IRAQ. I can't believe that you fell into the group this thread is trying to help so well.

10-21-2004, 05:00 PM	#50 (permalink)
Kalibah Insane Location: Padded Playhouse	Yes because CNN is fair and balanced

10-21-2004, 05:05 PM	#52 (permalink)
OpieCunningham Loser	Willravel - Yes. I see this as the biggest problem our society faces today. There seems to be no method of breaking the cycle - it feeds on itself and grows.