Abu Ghraib Photo Release
 

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The Defense Department has been ordered by the 2nd Circuit to release photos of abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib. What do you think about this? Is it necessary to show the photos to public? Personally I'm not sure this the right thing to do. Not sure it's the wrong thing to do either. Myself I don't need to see them they can just tell me about them.

I also read this this morning...
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So Karpinski feels vindicated. What about the soldiers sitting in the brig? Are they going to let them out? Do you think they should be let out? The UCMJ is pretty specific about following ordered. But there's also a sections about the responsibility to refuse illegal orders. Seems like a complex issue to me. But if i were a young soldier and my officers ordered me to "release the dogs" I think there a damn good chance I'd have done as ordered. I think if these people, as it seems clear now, were indeed following orders they should be released and given honorable discharges. I think it sucks that the people issuing the orders let them hang and claimed they knew nothing about it. they expressed shock and outrage about shit they ordered. Then they allowed people carrying out their orders to be sent off to the brig while they retired with big fat pensions. I think Charles Graner and Donald Rumsfeld should trade current residences.

The photo release is a good idea; it's the only thing that might cause enough outrage to result in criminal charges for all of those responsible.
As for the young soldiers in prison, they deserve to be there. They had an obligation to refuse illegal orders and they failed to do so. The only thing they deserve but didn't get is the satisfaction of seeing their commanding officers in prison with them.

I agree entirely. This does, interestingly, put a crimp in Obama's decision not to prosecute the torturing SOB's at the CIA because they were "just following orders." And well it should. They, too, should be heading to jail.

I don't care if they were tortured or not. Don't want to end up in Gitmo? Don't fight against the US. Its simple really. I shed no tears for them. If you think Islamic Terrorists are not laughing at us now you are misguided.

That statement assumes everyone that ended up in Gitmo was or is guilty.

I seriously don't think that's the case and a major part of the problem. Though guilty or not I'd prefer my government honor the treaties it signs and not lower itself to behaviors we prosecute for when done by other countries.

I prefer my government err on the side that keeps me and my countrymen alive the longest. IF a few Islamic cavement get water poured on their faces, so be it.

And when other countries treat our citizens/soldiers like that to keep their countrymen alive will you give them the same pass?

You think that France has any reason to do so? They wouldn't. And we don't do it to Frenchmen. The only nations that would torture us are the very nations that we are waterboarding. And they would still do it whether or not we stopped. We have nothing to loose but vital information.

Looks like we got better info from people before we did the whole torture thing. Cheney's trying to get two doc's released now, not the whole doc's just a number of pages. But so far it look s like we got better info before we water boarded folks.

But none the less when we lower ourselves to their level we're no better then them. We executed Japanese soldiers for these very actions. Yeah that's not hypocritical at all.

Show them during American Idol.

Yes of course we executed Japanese for this. They were the enemy. And they tortured us before we even had the chance to torture us. Learn from history. Nothing will get the Islamic Terrorists to stop hating us, stop trying to kill YOU, but totall conversion to their way of life. I would rather torture 1000 Islamics and find one thimbel full of information that be nice and play patty cake and fumble a ball that leads to one American death. The only way to stop them short of surrender, is to make them realise that killing Americans has too steep a price.

That's not how torture works, John. You don't use increasingly harsh techniques based on how devoted the enemy is. There's a point at which it becomes easier to diffuse hatred. Torturing someone that truly hates us will feed that hatred and will increase the chances of them lying intentionally. It increases their resolve.

Besides, according to virtually every interview of someone actually directly involved on torture, it didn't make a lick of difference, in fact it often lead to more difficulties. Traditional methods work according to the people in the world most capable of determining what works.

Oh if only the US administrations could do just that, sadly they don't want to or can't, who knows, maybe someday......

I don't care if they hate us more or less. I am saying if we think we can get a smidegeon of information that will save one American life, then torture away.

You should care. If they hate us more, they're less likely to provide information.
Don't we already have a torture thread going? Torture is just as likely to cost American lives as it is to save them. If you really want to gamble with American lives because you'd like to exact vengeance that if you're extremely lucky might yield some information that's at best of questionable truth, I'm glad you're not in charge.

I'm really trying to grasp the reasoning behind the release of photos. Why would anyone want to do something so asinine? The CIA/military is at fault here so place everyone involved before a "military tribunal" but there is no need to release photos unless it's for political gain or oneupmanship sorta thing which is entirely the wrong reason. It appears the Democrat party leadership was in cahoots and knew all along what was going on but never threw up a red flag until now. What's up with that?

let's get them all! ...all the purveyors of atrocities.

All the way back to the fire bombing of Dresden where approximately 500,000 children, women, the elderly, wounded soldiers and the animals of the zoo were slaughtered in one night.

Let's not forget Hiroshima, Korea, Vietnam, all the Iraq wars, the eastern Europe adventures under Clinton all the way up to Obama's itchy trigger-finger using drones and picking off pirates in the open sea.

I want to put FDR and Truman's corpses on trial for crimes against humanity. It all needs to be transparent. Let's get all the dead presidents.

Let's put every soldier, politician, and civil servant that served at any capacity up of war crimes. It is unfortunate that every member of congress that ever served on an intelligence, military, defense, or foreign affairs committee and their advisers would also need to be prosecuted. But this needs to be done.

Releasing these pictures is irresponsible.

I think that the government should post the pictures, blown up, on billboards. I can't decide whether the caption would read "Your indifference makes you culpable," or "Pledge week at Limbaugh University."

If the actions taken were reasonable and nothing to be ashamed of, then the release of photos is no big deal.

Yeah... I know that it's more complex than that. But it's something to consider.

I'm still not sure why it would be irresponsible to release the photos.

Everyone in the world knows that we torture. It isn't actually a revelation.

the only way in which it can be seen as a problem to release these photos is if you are of the political persuasion that sees in hypernationalist cretinism a correlate of love as defined by eric segal. so the united states advances itself as upholding the rule of law blah blah blah as over against those nasty lawless Terrorists and in the process becomes what it is fighting and the conservatives here don't see a problem with that? so the issue for them is why compromise that Might Facade of American Imperial Power by releasing them? but the facade is already compromised. the party is changing location.

but if you think about it releasing the photos can be seen as a ritual action designed to repudiate everything the neo-cons stood for. this is what their politics led to. this is hwo far those politics compromised us. this is one of the ways that we can self-correct. this brings the image of the states a little closer to what the right likes to blab about. no wonder releasing them is a Problem for conservatives: through it they loose a little more of their claim to the things they purport to stand for--like law, the rule of law.

maybe someday there'll be a degree of honesty from the right and folk will own up to the fact that everything theyre arguing these days is about political self-preservation--that it attempting to salvage their politics from te wreckage that the implementation of those politics visited upon it--and nothing else.

Aside from the hyperbole, why not put every single person who committed crimes on trial? Is there some compelling reason why there are some citizens who should be exempt from obeying the law?

No, I'm saying we should get all of the bastards...war-time acts or not!

The real fun is rationalizing the actions of those we favor while prosecuting the others (legally or not) with bold righteous indignation. As long as it makes the masses feel all hopey-changey, that's what is really important.

I think Dresden-style fire-bombing should be allowed under the Geneva Convention. Water-boarding is way worse, so lets make that a war crime and put them all in jail. It all makes perfect sense. String-em up!

From what I read the real fun is trollish responses that make light of the situation.

You've stopped even pretending not to troll..

You're hatred for "terrorists" has lead you to essentially become one. It'd be funny if it weren't so sad.

Yes kill them all... relax Will... merely extreme sarcasm to point out how ridiculous all this is. I hate no one and want to kill no one. However one should also see a bit of terrorism behind the releasing of these photos.

I would not object to releasing the pictures if they were matched with images of victims like Richard Pearl having their heads sawn from their necks. The Abu Ghriaib photos serve no other purpose but for political reasons. It's as shameful to use these pictures as political propaganda as it was shameful for the perpetrators who performed the acts.

---------- Post added at 01:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 AM ----------

You've stopped even pretending not to call people trolls when you have no imagination. Can we stop with the name calling?

so essentially, otto, you're arguing that there is no difference between the united states and a non-state "terrorist"group.
which kinda follows from your previous hyperbolics in which you implicitly equated the bush "war on terror"and world war 2, which you had to do in order to make your nonsensical claim regarding dresden.
your position would seem to be anything goes.

then because you politically and/or emotionally oppose obama, you equate the release of the photos of torture being carried out by the united states with terrorism.

then you say the photos are "political propaganda"...

classic.

there's really nothing to be said about this nonsense.

how about this:
i take it that you oppose the release of the photos.
do you have any actual arguments as to why?
or is it simply that the obama administration is doing the releasing?

i'm inclined to think the latter is the case.
if that's true, then there may well be no real arguments--you wouldn't need them---you just oppose it because of the source.
but that avoids everything of substance about why torture is a problem.

i can see why you'd want to avoid the actual questions.
so far you have.

so what's your actual position on this? is torture cool so far as you're concerned? if the party positions were flipped around, would you feel the same way?