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Get out of New Jersey while you still can
This shiat is totally farked up.
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how many people think this is perfectly acceptable behavior for police to forcibly draw blood? and then have zero liability for any damages caused? This is why more cops die. People are starting to get pushed to the limit. :mad: |
Implied consent gone wrong. Maybe. Implied consent none-the-less.
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This law will come down to how the police choose to carry it out. If we get people bleeding to death (which is unlikely) it will change. If it gets belligerent drunk drivers into jail, then it's not so bad.
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what it fails to mention is how much of a fight he was putting up or the circumstances surrounding his arrest (other than the DUI).
i've been spit on, punched and kicked by drunk people as well as being subjected to their bullshit ramblings and drunken bravado. tough shit for him. |
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dksuddeth, nothing happened when "authority" did this: Quote:
Pick your shots. After what happened at Kent State, we had a song ("four dead in Oh-High-Oh"...) and everything. It was just eight months after Woodstock. It didn't help, nothing seems to. This country is much more conservative now than it was in early May, 1970. You need to raise awareness with the most grievous abuses of authority as examples, this "damaged wrist case", is not one of them. We had a song about this guy, too. I once joined a protest outside the court at his murder trial in New Haven, and I saw him led out of the back of the court house in heavy chains: Quote:
http://www.bostonmassacre.net/trial/acct-preston1.htm But, that was before "our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation conceived in liberty", wasn't it? |
So a drunk is in a hospital, a nurse goes to get a blood sample (which is standard procedure for anyone admitted to a hospital with a medical (as in, not trauma-based) problem, let alone one with an altered level of consciousness or clearly under the influence of something), and the guy struggles so hard against his restraints that the officer must physically hold him so the nurse can do their job... and you call this "may inflict permanent physical damage"?
First of all, the officer wasn't taking blood. A nurse was. And yes, forcibly- when you're in an altered level of consciousness, medical staff has implied consent to care for you. This includes drawing blood for lab tests which can determine what, if anything, may be causing your medical problem. When you're in an altered level of consciousness, you're not competent to make your own decisions for medical care. It's a long-standing rule. Paranoid anti-establishment conspiracy retards are the dirty cunts of the world, and that website "thenewspaper" is another in a long line of their soak-up-all-the-bullshit tampons. If you want to latch onto the word "forcibly", knock yourself out. Yeah, it was done forcibly because the filthy fuck was drunk, had been driving drunk, and was then fighting against his restraints while a medical professional carried out their duties, despite his being a filthy fuck. I could write another headline for this particular dirty cunt tampon of a "news" site- "EMS worker intentionally and enthusiastically stabs a woman in 4 fingers with a sharp instrument against her protests, then squeezes them vigorously so they bleed." That would have been me taking blood sugar tests on a woman whose sugar was so low, she was completely out of her mind. She required 2 different drugs to stabilize back to normal, which was an almost sickeningly sweet and kind older southern woman. That's exactly the type of "twisting of words" you've used to complain, once again, about the police. It's like tabloid journalism, only dumber and fueled by paranoid delusions of persecution. The cop held his arms down- probably at the wrists, which is a very standard way to hold a person down so they can't hurt you or others, and would explain the damage to his wrists. What part of that implies a new carte blanch for cops to intentionally, permanently damage suspects? That's a whole new level of "reaching". Second: Quote:
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"The public" has a right to observe and question authority in the course of it "performing it's duties". It's reaction to people doing just that is irrelevant, but the consequences it metes out anyway, are real, sometimes illegal, and do shocking damage to those exercising their rights while acting within the law: Quote:
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My poor mouse wheel :sad:
When I first glanced at this I imagined police drawing the blood themselves roadside for some reason. That would be bad, drawing blood is not that easy if you are doing it properly for medical reasons. Then I read it realized no, its not so bad. There are PLENTY of reasons to leave N.J. but this wouldn't be one of them in my book. Quote:
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you obviously have zero idea of what this country was supposed to be, only what you see before you as liberty is whittled away in the name of protecting you. I pity you. |
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tell me why I should change my views? should you change yours? or should I just STFU and GBTW? |
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http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4435/fallingfy8.pngGreetings all. If you're like me, you may be insane. That is to say, after slogging through work all Winter, your nerves may have become extremely frayed and as a consequence you may have lost your mind. Don't feel bad, it happens to everyone. I've also lost several important pieces of paper, so there's sort of a motif going here. With me I think it was the total lack of sunlight for months at a time. At this time of year, many people feel that they're in need of a vacation, but aren't sure if they may have a small amount of sanity left they can yet work through. Here's a checklist to help you determine whether you've lost your mind and should go on vacation. Do You Need A Vacation? Try This Checklist: * You're having repeated nightmares that you're lost in a maze made of jello. * No one wants to ride the elevator with you. * You hospitalized the last person who criticized your choice of fonts. * You've started having long, animated discussions with George Washington. * You believe Hairy Potter is real. * Your family hid the knives. * Last time the printer failed, you went into a two-hour long screaming, crying fit, whimpering, "Its not fair....I, I just want to print." * You're writing cute little haiku poems about the Manson Family. * You made a suggestion for a corporate retreat wandering in the blisteringly hot desert for 40 days, contemplating the meaninglessness of existence. You want to do this only for the sunlight. * You spend a lot of time at home stoking and staring into the fire and you don't have a fireplace. * You're considering signing up for an expedition to search for the North West Passage because it would get you out of the office. * The only thing stopping you from forming your own end-of-times cult is deciding on a design for the jackets. * You start to compare someone hurt attempting to get out of a DUI with the holocaust. This, of course, is not an exhaustive list. If you have any other ideas about how to tell if you need a vacation, we'd love to see them, so share them with the class. Next week, the kinds of vacations you can take. Until then, keep your pen on the page and your jacket designs tasteful. |
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Do you, as a dentist, think that the police should FORCE someones mouth open so you can get a tooth indentation for bite mark comparisons? not that it matters to you, obviously, because you've fallen in to the same category as most other people. That group of people who have no problem overlooking the 'occasional' total deprivation of the right of being because it's an isolated incident or they had it coming by breaking some law or other. That is how I got around to the holocaust, but you seem to short sighted to see a big picture anyway. go back to your regular programming, nothing to see here except the ranting and raving of a paranoid conspiracy delusionist. :shakehead: |
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Implied Consent: Not just a good idea, it is THE LAW! Since you live in Texas, check out what your own state legislature approved: Implied Consent In Texas |
Sane: Police should not be allowed to forcibly restrain someone in order to take a blood test since obviously they did not know how to do it without causing permanent harm. Why wasn't the patient properly sedated prior to giving the test?
Insane: This is why more cops die. People are starting to get pushed to the limit.:mad: Its not the message so much as the insane ranting I'm reacting to. No cops are dying because some drunk asshole was trying to refuse a blood test and he got himself badly hurt by the police, and the fact that I think so does not make me the next holocaust victim. |
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You don't have a driver's license?
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sometimes things seem to work this way:
http://www.celestialmonochord.org/lo...rris_wheel.jpg the circular pattern emanates from the left side of joseph cotton's brain and re-enters his head just above his left shoulder. it is possible for the larger circle to reference other loops. in this case, doctor strangelove http://www.fantascienza.com/cinema/d...ia/Sunglas.JPG because of the problems posed by the threat of forced confiscation of precious bodily fluids. but i want to talk about the question of leaving new jersey which can be complicated even though there are official sanctioned routes out of the state http://www.nic.com/~cheah/ticket.jpg because new jersey is a state of mind: http://geethink.com/blog/wp-photos/t...0-171402-1.jpg http://thump01.pbase.com/u42/vincebe...Coffee2Net.jpg http://thegreencuttingboard.blogspot.com/TV-diner.jpg http://static.flickr.com/19/114680031_a6e302e020.jpg |
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DK, cut this shit out. For you benefit if not everyone else's. While your grip on reality has always been a bit shaky, this thread is demonstrating that even that is slipping away. Food for thought: what happens when someone with developing paranoid delusions who has an affinity for guns and a particular mistrust and hated of law enforcement grows balls? No one here wants the eventual outcome of that scenario to play out. For the safety of your local police and yourself, you seriously do need to take a break from the ramblings and get some perspective. Oh, and RB, one of your pictures is rexed. Without it your post is confusing, apparently. |
OK, we're officially done with the name calling. No more "paranoid" or "freedom hating" or "insane". If you are going to use an adjective about another person or their opinion, you need to stop and think about whether or not it is negative. It doesn't matter who started it or who continued it; I'm ending it.
And roachboy wins with the Dr. Strangelove referrence. |
dksuddeth, I recommend you read How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie.
On most issues, I agree with you. Unfortunately, you'll never change minds by demanding, arguing, and denigrating. It's just not how people work. I think you could be a very powerful social activist, if you only honed your ability to convince others to join your side. Again, I HIGHLY recommend the book; not just for you, but for anyone who wants to evoke social change by convincing others that your position is the correct one. As a matter of fact, I think everyone in the OP could've benefited from a little "people training" - even if he was extremely intoxicated, it is very possible that they could've civilly convinced him to concede. "This is just something we have to do, it'll get you out of here faster.. "We're doing this for your safety and ours.. don't you want to be safe? "If you let us take your blood, we'll stop bugging you!" "Now we understand that you might be upset at us, but do you really want to hurt this young lady drawing your blood?" "You don't seem like a violent person. Do you really want to be violent? Maybe we misjudged you?" Etc, etc. There's a billion ways to diffuse a situtation without violently holding someone down. And if they took him to the hospital, they had plenty of time to use those techniques. Maybe having an alcoholic father as a child helped me learn how to peacefully dissolve another person's irrational (or drug-induced anger), but I think that police training should definitely match the time spent on firearms with time spent on people skills. |
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Edit: to clarify further, it would have been counter productive to my goal (a more stable DK) to start calling him names. What I want is simply to be respectful but frank in my concern. Despite his somewhat radical beliefs, I know that DK is a good person, and the last thing I want is for him to possibly put himself in a dangerous situation. |
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I have to agree with ustwo here (And that's a first), time for a vacation. IMHO, you drive drunk and endangering other people on the road, you can shove your privacy issues up your ass. |
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What worries me most about those that accept the current situations as 'normal', is how much worse do things have to get before you DO take a stand? Will it be too late to do anything about it? Will anything ever be done at all? Again Will, tell me what YOU think my perspective should be. |
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I always thought that the police had to get a court order to force someone to provide evidence like bodily fluids, DNA, etc.. Also, I always thought that you could refuse a breath alcohol test. I also thought that many attorneys recommend that you refuse the test if arrested for DUI. I guess I was wrong as this case shows.
In any event I think this type of situation could be somewhat avoided by not requiring those charged with a crime to provide evidence against themselves, at least without a court order. I guess I don't trust the methods the police use or the hospital/lab personel they choose to get their evidence. |
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There's no justification for the repeated slippery slope arguments often in your arguments. Police with needles suddenly becomes a case of holocaust. When we point out the extremes of your arguments, you lash out at people instead of addressing our points. You don't trust people, especially people in positions of authority, and assume that they are trying to injure and deceive you. You bear grudges against members. |
that didn't answer my question though, but thanks for the lengthy explanation of your opinion of my mental state.
It's easy to sit back and make claims of somebody being paranoid, even in the face of obvious everyday incidents pointed out to you that establish the OP's viewpoints in a very factual manner. Whether I come across as vehemently anti-authority or not is irrelevant, or should be, if one has the ability to take past accounts in to the equation as well and see the big picture of what is being presented to you. Would 'the slippery slope' argument make better sense to you if I were to write an 8 page essay documenting 30 years of increasing abuse by the government? You seem to agree with it well enough when you decry Bush/Cheney and the other evil republicans as well as including the do-nothing dems lately. With each post I make concerning ever increasing violence by cops against citizens or encroachment of rights by legislatures, or outright and blatant removal of rights by the judiciary, I receive ever increasing calls for me to stop, get back in touch with reality, or recommendations to see a psychotherapist. If you choose to bury your heads in the sand, I cannot help you anymore. Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me.....or you. |
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the cops may not have even needed the blood alcohol level for their case. the hospital may require it for any patient under the influence. the cops could just as easily summoned the person after they process them at the station. most police departments (again, in my neck of the woods) wont hold very drunk individuals in their holding cells. drunk people do die unexpectedly occasionally. the hospital they brought him to may have a policy of obtaining the alcohol levels of any drunk individual. the main reason for that would be liability. they let an obviously intoxicated patient leave and they go get hit by a bus, its the hospitals fault for releasing them. if the person was resisting, the cops would assist. then, they wouldnt need a court order. they could just subpeona the results from the hospital when the case came up. individuals under the influence are not capable of making informed consent, hence the implied consent. |
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The hospital most certainly operates under implied consent. How could they not? Furthermore, I've got no problem with people being restrained to protect those hospital workers in the course of their jobs. It's bad enough that they are at risk from your body fluids -- there's no reason for them to also have to fear you punching them in the face while you're drunk or high. If the blood test results constitute testifying against yourself, they won't be admitted in court. I'll be totally honest and admit that will's qualifications don't mean anything to me. I'm also not interested in an analysis or diagnosis of dksuddeth's posts. In my eyes, they speak for themselves. |
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Having an educational knowledge of the DSM and reading your display here, I could easily say that you were demonstrating precursors to Narcissistic Personality Disorder, particularly by criteria 1 and 5 in the DSM IV: Quote:
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I think your basic premise is just wrong. You can write an 8 page essay if you like, or perhaps some other forum poster can teach how to find find 8 pages to cut and paste over, but from what I've SEEN, I'd still say you were wrong. I doubt captain stupid would have even had his day in court 30 years ago. |
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Now, if you're unable to answer the questions that I posed to you, maybe you should posting other non-sensical crap and attacks? |
Get out of Texas too?
Blood to be drawn from DWI suspects
This article outlines a pilot program being operated out of El Paso. Some highlights from the article: The procedure: The process: The blood will be sent to Texas Department of Public Safety lab for blood-alcohol results, which will arrive in around a month. The suspect would still be jailed on a DWI test-refusal charge.The motivation: ...more than half of the 50 traffic deaths in El Paso this year involved drunken drivers. And about 50 percent of people arrested on suspicion of driving while intoxicated refuse to take the breath test, making prosecution more difficult.The caveat: The search warrant for blood process "creates significant constitutional issues," Weiser said. "What's the next step? We take blood from somebody. What's the next step?"My own view on this issue is that DUI is a serious crime. Too many people lose their lives (or their livelihood) as a result of intoxicated drivers. This needs to stop, and it isn't a case of simply telling people to "just stop drinking and driving." Alcoholism is a disease. Alcohol impairs judgement. Alcohol can kill. If we cannot prevent the loss of lives with an imperfect breathalyzer system, then why not go to mandatory blood tests? Do we not make exceptions for those who break the law where lives are at risk? I don't think this is an issue of Big Brother extending his influence over the public; this is policing and the legal system wishing to use a trump card against a nagging problem: Families being destroyed by drunk driving. They need to work around the constitutional and privacy issues and find what good can come out of the blood tests. Seriously, 50 deaths in one city alone. What else can we do to solve this problem? |
*comes back in and reads everything since his last post all at once*
Wow. dk, A few quick observations: 1. I'm sorry that "implied consent" gets in the way of your personal beliefs. However, there are options available to you in the form of what's called an Advanced Directive- a living will. In it, you may indicate as broadly or specifically as you desire exactly what sort of medical treatment you authorize or do not authorize to be performed on yourself. Examples: You may say you authorize intravenous access for giving medication, but NOT for drawing blood. This would allow medical personnel to give you medicine, but would disallow a blood draw. You could have it say you don't wish any intravenous access whatsoever, though I wouldn't recommend that, because if you were ever in an accident and needed blood or fluids, you'd be screwed. You can even drill it down and say something like you will allow IV access ONLY for the administration of fluids, blood, or medicine, but not for any sedative/hypnotic drugs. This would prevent them from giving you any chemical restraints, or anything to "put you down". Depending on your state, a living will (or "advanced directive") may or may not need to be arranged by a lawyer, and may or may not require the signature of your physician. Once that's obtained, it's a simple matter of keeping the document on you. That may sound a bit cumbersome, but lots of people do it. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, often have them because they are barred by religion from receiving any blood products, and must be able to indicate that on paper, should an emergency situation arise. So you do have solutions to your concerns, regarding unwanted medical procedures. You DO have a right to say what is and isn't done to your body, you just need a *tiny* bit more patience to do the necessary research into it. (Footnote: a court order can still override it, if let's say you were suspected of driving under the influence, a judge could issue a warrant for your blood to test for alcohol. But this would not be determined by a police officer, this would take a little time and come from a judge. If you don't drive, then this wouldn't really apply to you.) Now that I'm done helping... 2. Sheeple? You, Mr. "I know my rights better than anyone and the gestapo is jack-booting them all into the stratosphere", don't know your rights when it comes to medical procedure. Don't fucking talk to me about violation of rights, you haven't a single goddamn clue what you're talking about and it pisses me off that you've translated your ignorance of this subject into a hatred. Ladies and gentlemen, a perfect example of ignorance breeding hate. You don't have anything to hate- as I've outlined above, there are ways to specify what medical care you give consent to when it's deemed you're unable to give consent. You're too busy bitching, whining, complaining, and otherwise being a vocal nuisance to even look into your personal rights on this matter. Everything you've said about a lack of rights is misguided and lacking in education on the subject, because you're making wild claims about the government's ability to force things on you. You obviously have no education on the subject- so I recommend you get some, get an advanced directive so the big, bad nurses of the world can't "violate your rights" and draw some blood, and stop ranting about things on which you're totally clueless. Plain and simple, you are wrong here. You were unaware of your own rights, which you DO have in the form of an Advanced Directive, and you took the ignorance of your rights in this matter and parlayed it into hatred. Nothing, not even blaming me for the Jewish holocaust, will change the fact that this time, you are totally and unquestionably wrong. I wish you luck on obtaining an Advanced Directive. |
you HAD rights, you gave them up. I'm NOT wrong, plain and simple. very few people i've ever come across have been able to realize just what it is that they've lost because they've let others dictate for them what rights they have and what rights don't exist. This is YOUR fault for not overlooking what you've been told and discovering for yourself, through the documents of our history, what it is you actually hold. I can't help you anymore in this. Many people have pointed you in the direction you need to go, if you refuse to acknowledge that, you're beyond the help you need.
I'll agree to disagree with you, but it's your loss. |
This isn't about DUI?
Sorry, if it isn't, you're going to have to recast this whole thread. Please, even if you need to bring in some Thomas Paine, do something to save this thread. |
Yeah, you're still wrong. You have rights, and don't know how to exercise them.
It's ok though. Pretty much every day in my line of work, there exists a handful of people whom I (indeed, all people in a medical field) attempt to educate, knowing full-well it will be totally ignored. They either don't want to hear it because they're set in their ways, or just want a "quick fix" and to be on their way. I'll be there when they want to get patched up, and I'll be there when those lines of thinking end up killing them earlier, and with less healthy years, than they could have lived. And I'm fine with all that. Helping people does not rely on them actually following your advice, just that the advice is imparted in good faith; that sometimes, people really think about it, and take positive steps towards their well-being, and live a longer, fuller life. People do it all the time, and you can never know who might turn their life around on any given day. So, now you're armed with information- something a thousand times more powerful than anything in your personal armory. |
No BG, this isn't JUST ABOUT DUI. This is about people deciding that giving up their personal private rights to lower a crime rate is ok, as well as letting 'authority' abrogate their rights through judicial edict. It goes even further than that when people try to tell us that a right not specifically articulated in the constitution and bill of rights is a right that doesn't exist.
This is about becoming a virtual slave to the government, for thats where we are headed by simple virtue of people believing that we need to in order to lower crime. Quote:
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In fact, I specifically went out of my way to follow every use of the word "ignorance" or "uneducated", or other form of indicating a lack of knowledge, with "on this subject", "in this matter", "on this topic", etc. to very clearly and specifically indicate I only meant regarding this exact topic. So, my apologies if my efforts were not sufficient to head off misunderstanding- I do not think you're stupid. You do seem quite intelligent, regardless of what opinions we share or do not share. I simply meant your knowledge base, as it pertains solely to this topic, is insufficient. I hope restating that, in its own context, has assuaged your feelings of insult. |
Okay, so this isn't just about DUI, so I guess this isn't just about New Jersey, either. So, is it about the Fourth Amendment, then?
This could be interesting. Let's focus on this pre-revolutionary amendment within the context of post-9/11 America. There is a lot to discuss here. So, we have a topic of privacy and government intervention via policing and court orders. In this case, it is DUI and the issue of forced blood samples. But even before these recent cases, we also have the issue of suspended rights to privacy with illegal wiretaps in the context of counter terrorism. Personally, I'd be more afraid of wiretaps and other forms of tech-based government surveillance than I would be about blood samples if I were to be caught while driving impaired. (Think mobile technology, the Internet, and ways of tracking things such as retail patterns and library usage, etc.) Mandatory blood tests on suspected drunkards doesn't concern me. If they start doing that to other groups, then we just might have a problem. |
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A slippery slope: http://www.slapupsidethehead.com/wp-...pery_slope.jpg It's an idea that if one thing happens, it stands to reason that another more serious thing will happen. The problem, of course, is that you said people suspected of DUI will be forced to have a blood test, and it stands to reason that a holocaust will follow: http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/his...olocaust_1.jpg Everyone else in the world disagrees, and here's why. Blood being drawn forcefully from people suspected of a DUI could result in people suing the police department and losing. That could lead to more blood being drawn because some officers might abuse this. That's the worst case scenario in this, not the systematic killing of an entire race of people. Maybe you can give us a reasonable chain of events that starts with this DUI thing and leads directly to a holocaust? Quote:
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Having your blood not taken isn't a legal right (as I've said before). A "right" that's not supported by law isn't a right that the state has to recognize. Therefore, the state does not have to recognize the right to bodily fluids. |
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Rumor has it that the police use force against bank robbers, rapists, and murderers who don't drop their weapons.
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I dont see what that has to do with anything. Would you rather they didnt?
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But then, the government isn't treating those rights like they are rights. The legal resemblance is closer to 'privileges'. Perhaps that is dk's gripe and the source of his insistence that he's not wrong. Or something like that, because I've the sneaking suspicion that you two are arguing different arguments. (Then again, a default setting of "let nurses draw blood when you're incapacitated" kinda makes sense if you're of the mainstream, drawing-blood-isn't-evil, drawing-blood-won't-land-me-in-jail, yes-of-course-I'd-want-medical-diagnostics-done mindset. So I'm leaning toward your position anyway.) |
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Way to be completely neutral. |
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and, in the last quote box: Quote:
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on this thread, except by dksuddeth. . A treatise on C. Wright Mills: Quote:
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The Society for the Study of Social Problems established the C. Wright Mills Award in 1964. Quote:
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host quit hating my mouse wheel, what has it ever done to YOU :no:
Yes its all corporations now, things were much better in the past where the government respected our rights. Now if you will excuse me my habeas corpus rights have been suspended by Grant, and I need to visit a friend of mine down at the internment camp for some sushi. I'm hoping the colored boy down the street caught some fresh fish for it, there have been some riots in his neighborhood but the nation guard has been called in and after a few shootings I'm sure things will calm down. I'm going to be paying the beat cop for some confiscated alcohol, and have a real party, after all I've been drafted. |
I've expended the time and effort to lay out what should be regarded as a thought provoking argument that the country is in the grip of authoritarian leaning special interests. I lean on the experience and research of Lamont, Mills, and the more contemporary Chambliss to support the ideas that there is no leftist counter influence to the military, corporatist, law n order penal systen driven conservative capitalism invested in permanent rearmament. I point out that in such a climate, dksuddeth is a reasonable voice.....e tu...Ustwo, what are you doing? Is it sincerely discussing, or is it your usual?
on edit...don't you find it the least bit odd that there isn't a REAL left reacting to what I've described? Is a country with the highest per capita incarceration rates in the world, with 1/3 of all black males in the justice system, with a Gini # of 46.9, a foreign policy like ours, and treatment like Lamont and Black Panther party leaders received from authorities....does that seem like a place without a left? What other countries have politics devoid of a committed left faction? The names on a list them would be an eye opener..... |
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Would it be funnier if I said it?
No, wait... I can do trackball jokes! |
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My research.... has unearthed this comparatively recent work. I think the crux of it is that "the right" is committed to the defense of the status quo to the point that it evolves into a police state, and when that happens, it crushes "the left", because it is the perceived threat to the status quo that "the left" evolves to deliver, that justifies the move to a repressive, "individual rights reducing", police state. I think that this orientation motivated such a backlash against dksuddeth's OP, which compared to the burgeoning "penal colony" and "Power Elite" prioritized entrenchment that defines (overwhelms?) the US today, is but a fruit fly when compared to the "800 lbs. gorilla" that is American conservatism in late 2007. Two right oriented political parties and a bunched up "center" that, along with the right dominated parties, are ardent defenders of the "status quo". Quote:
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Being my mind is a bit addled by cold medications, I decided to read all that and it really added, well nothing to the discussion. We have links about the semi-marxist C. Wright Mills, worried about the 'power elite' whoever the hell they really are, and wanting to join all the leftists in some grand movement to overthrow them. Typical socialist dream, but Mills can be forgiven as this was the 1950's, socialisms follies were not fully understood. This also has very little to do with 'your rights' unless you want to stretch a drunk getting hurt by cops when he refused to submit to a blood test with the 'power elites'. Then it ties into corporations as the true 'power elites' so now the drunk guy getting hurt is due to McDonalds, great. Then it all ties in declining crime rates and William J Chambliss's work to show that of course things are worse now than better, even though I don't see anything in Chambliss's work to support that. Noting a problem does not mean the problem is worse now than in the past. So no, he didn't contradict me, he brought in a bunch of 6 degrees of separation related links, and got upset when he was called on it. I mean does anyone think the cops would have been NICER to this guy in 1950 if he was acting the same way about something similar? That you would have even heard about it? |
ustwo--a debating tip--you aren't going to be in a position to call anyone on anything if your main tactic is to declare, before anything else, that you didn't read the post.
your case is not helped when you provide a totally incoherent flea=circus bit about c. wright mills. knowing now that occasional agreement on something is a vague possibility, and that neither of our heads will explode if it happens... ========================== there is a (methodo)logical problem with host's post above, but it mostly has to do with simply not explaining the linkage between the claim that the u.s. is an oligarchy, the militarization of police forces, the expansion of the notion of subversive speech, the "prison-industrial complex"----and procedural irregularities involving the meaning of implied consent in new jersey. there is a way you could do it---say that a dimension of conservative tactics of social mobilization is the creation of a series of Enemies that operate at different social registers. these Enemies are drunk drivers, people who kidnap children, "terrorists" and other political adversaries....which are grouped as "social deviants", threats to the phantom integrity of the body politic of the Us--because the principle function of designating an Enemy is to designate a community that is threatened by this Enemy, which you do at the same time. but this would require voyaging through the climate of social hysteria, its origins, its functions and uses. so on the one hand, you could connect stuff like "america's most wanted" the burgeoning hysteria of the 1980s-90s concerning children (remember all those milk cartons with images of lost children printed on the sides?)......to stuff like the construction of drunk drivers as bearers of chaos and potential death....to something of the notion of "terrorism" in that all are random threats, all are abstract threats, nothing to be done really...political dissent, processed through right revisionist pseudo-history of the vietnam period gets turned into another Persecuting Adversary, an Outside Element geared around Creating Danger and Disorder Amongst/Within the Right-Thinking Community of Perecuted Petit Bourgeois Types. you'd have to track the fashioning and migration of these memes across differing registers of cultural production, show the linkages between, say, the image of the Phantom Other Who Waits to Steal Your Child, the clamp-down on dui as an expression of social deviance (and not as an expression of the workings of a kind of social safety valve generated in part by a paranoia-as-politics approach to solidarity building)---the migration of these memes from the stream of ordinary debris into elements of political narrative by way of any number of conservative institutions whose function was (still is?) to provide the illusion of constant updating of the Ideological Product that is populist conservatism...and the effects of this migration/reframing. so you could maybe show a relation between the rise of fear of the "Abstract Figure Who May or May Not Exist But Who Will Maybe Kidnap Your Children If He Does Exist so you Better Watch Out" and the creation of a consituency willing and able to vote for Order uber alles and who cam maybe rationalize away this committment to order uber alles on the grounds of self-defense. but you'd have to show how this process worked. you can't simply say "there are procedural irregularities that test the limits of implied consent happening in new jersey" and then say "c. wright mills outlined a description of the united states as an oligarchy" then string together a series of features of the world the right has made and leave it at that. this because without such work, you imply a conspiracy of some kind that in fact runs the show within which we live---you say "power elite" and then point to a sequence of more recent factors and don't fill in the middle term, and you say, basically, that nameless elements within this elite determine what is seen and how it is seen politically/media-wise. i dont buy it, simply because the dominant economic class in the states is deeply divided, is not working with an understanding of its own class interests. so you have factions within the dominant economic class that align with the far right, and others that align with the moderate right (which includes most of the democrat "front-runners" of the moment)... and i dont buy it because assuming such a conspiracy exists bypasses the need to think about the looser-less formalized circuitry of ideological adjustment that the conservatives had fashioned and which worked quite well until the overwhelming foulness of the bush administration effective junked the machinery....for now anyway.... a cynical fellow might be inclined to think that the origin of this Persecuting Other that conservative politics feeds on is the figure of the Poor or Dispossessed, which would be the imaginary cypher filled in my the consequences of neoliberal economic and social policies, which at one time "expressed itself" through political dissent from the left (as an imaginary construction)....so you can maybe connect conservative revisionist narratives of the vietnam period to the figure of Political Opposition as Persecution to the series of other Persecuting Others that have been floated into the hysteria mill of american "culture" since the reagan period. but you'd have to make this kind of argument, it seems to me. o yeah--and i wouldn't count on much agreement from the right about mill's basic idea. just as it is possible to shear off consideration of the poor from the ideological mill, only to have them resurfacing in displaced form as a Persecuting Other, so it is possible to have the actually existing class fractions that back and which stand to benefit from conservtive politics be sheared off, only to reappear in as the Happy Face Other of the Entrepreneur, Hero of Markets, Genius of Linguistics, Conqueror of Happiness and Friend of the Children, the Embodiment of Rationality in Chaotic Times. |
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