Turkish movie casts America as the villain

[ubertuber]

From the NY Times.

Originally Posted by NY Times

If You Want a Film to Fly, Make Americans the Heavies

By SEBNEM ARSU
ISTANBUL, Feb. 13 — The crowd cheered, clapped and whistled as the Turkish agent plunged the knife into the chest of the enemy commander.

"Valley of the Wolves — Iraq," which opened last week in movie theaters in Turkey, Austria and Germany, is a Rambo-like action story involving Turkish gunmen who seek revenge against a tyrannical occupying army.

In this version, however, at $10 million the most expensive movie ever made in Turkey, the enemy is no oppressive third-world dictatorship. The commander's name is Sam — as in uncle — and the opposing forces are the Americans, who are being punished for offenses against Turkish as well as Iraqi pride and honor.

The commander, Sam William Marshall, played by an American actor, Billy Zane, is a sociopath, killing people without a second's thought and claiming that he is doing God's will. While fictional, some of the movie is based in part on real events, and many of the scenes elicit knowing looks from the audience. The opening sequence portrays an incident that made headlines here in 2003, when a group of Turkish special forces soldiers in Iraq were taken into custody by American marines. The Turks, mistaken for insurgents, were handcuffed and held with hoods over their heads, which rankled many Turks.

Other scenes show ruthless marines killing Iraqis and soldiers mistreating inmates at Abu Ghraib prison, as well as an American Jewish surgeon, played by Gary Busey, who takes what look like kidneys from inmates during surgery to New York, London and Israel — all, according to the screenwriter, Bahadir Ozdener, inspired by real events.

"These were only a few of the human rights violations by the U.S. in Iraq that the press covered and we followed," Mr. Ozdener said. "We did not intend to insult American people or their values, but only wanted to portray a real tragedy there."

The plot focuses on the hooding incident and its aftermath. The commander of the Turkish soldiers returns home in humiliation, believing that his honor has been so compromised that he has no choice but to commit suicide. But he leaves a note to the hero, a Turkish intelligence agent named Polat Alemdar, pleading with him to defend the country's honor that he had so disserved. So Alemdar leads a small team of special operations soldiers into northern Iraq, where they are astonished and outraged at what they find.

"They were after the man who insulted the Turkish soldiers, but they couldn't believe their eyes when they saw the situation there," reads the movie's Web site. "The people of Iraq's values, personalities and history were completely being disregarded. The desired new order was forcing an unacceptable change on the people. The one who is responsible for these unendurable crimes against humanity is a Special Forces commander called Sam William Marshall."

Marshall then orders a raid on a wedding, where trigger-happy marines get spooked and kill scores of civilians. It is all in pursuit of his plan to pacify the people through intimidation and violence, all according to God's will and for their own good. Until, ultimately, Alemdar catches up with him.

Mr. Zane, who got his start in "Back to the Future" and has a great number of grade B credits since then, said he was not bothered by the movie's anti-American tone, adding that the horrors of war should be exposed. "I acted in this movie because I'm a pacifist," he said in a televised interview. "I'm against all kinds of war."

Whatever its artistic merits, the movie — which has already broken Turkish box office records — has highlighted a growing discrepancy in how America is seen in Turkey.

Officially, the two governments have been enjoying much improved relations after a low point in 2003, when Turkey refused to allow American troops to operate from its territory to invade Iraq. On the street, however, public opinion of America has been steadily declining since the invasion and the disclosures about the abuse at Abu Ghraib and the "rendition" and torture of suspected members of Al Qaeda in secret prisons.

Outwardly, the two countries are committed partners in fighting terrorism. But Turkey has been fighting with Kurdish separatists seeking independence since the 1980's, and the United States, along with the European Union, lists the Kurdish Workers Party, known as the P.K.K., as a terrorist organization.

With the invasion of Iraq, however, the United States military has been reluctant to act against the P.K.K., allowing them to operate freely in northern Iraq, which has distressed many Turks. "No matter how good our official relations are, the P.K.K. issue is a wall against all our bilateral efforts for the better," said Egemen Bagis, foreign policy adviser to Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister. "Capture of the rebels by the American forces in Iraq would demolish this wall overnight, and cause U.S. popularity to surge."

To make matters worse, from a Turkish perspective, Washington has tolerated a de facto Kurdish state in northern Iraq. "People think that the U.S. supports an independent Kurdish state in northern Iraq and therefore threatens the unity of Turkish land," said Nilufer Narli, a sociology professor at Bahcesehir University here.

As a result, popular opinion of the United States has been steadily declining. Anti-American novels, including one that portrays a war between the United States and Turkey, have been selling briskly, and Hitler's "Mein Kampf" was a best seller last year.

Despite its popularity, the film has not touched off widespread anti-American violence or prompted any street demonstrations.

"It doesn't show anything that we did not already know," said Fahri Kaya, 22-year-old private security guard. "It was more like a group therapy that gave people a chance to let go of their negative feelings against what's been happening in Iraq as they shouted, clapped and cried."

Despite the movie's success, Mr. Bagis said it would take more than that to shred the countries' good relations.

"Our alliance with the United States has very strong roots," he said. "A movie or a book just cannot destroy it."

I have to admit that when I was reading this article, lots of things were bothering me. Although many of you may be tempted to equate Gary Busey and Billy Zane to Jane Fonda and the whole "comforting the enemy" trope, for the purposes of this thread, please consider that if it wasn't those guys it would have been someone else acting in this movie.

After my original discomfort over this movie faded, I thought about the VAST number of movies coming out of Hollywood that have portrayed other nations in EXACTLY the same light that this one does for us, and the fact that we seem to take this as a matter of course. The way I see it, we've sort of invited other nations to make a reverse-style Rambo flick. It was inevitable, and this is surely not the first.

Obviously I recognize that the media industry should remain essentially unfettered by governmental influence. But at the same time, our media is a huge part of how we are perceived by the populations of other countries. Jack Valenti himself (former president of the MPAA) claimed that intellectual property is America's most valuable export. While we fought over John Bolton's nomination as ambassador to the U.N., we don't even talk about the fact that Vin Diesel is a cultural representative who in many ways has far more power to influence our image abroad. The rage expressed in the Muslim world over the last few weeks has shown us that our public image is just as real in the opinions of the masses as it is in the Parliamentary Halls of governments.

I certainly don't advocate governmental restriction of the entertainment industry, but I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on the media's power to represent us. Considering the axiom (from media no less) that great power comes with great responsibility, where do you feel that responsibility should come from, and how should it be exercised? Most importantly, imagine an article like this being written in a foreign paper after a movie like Black Hawk Down, Rambo, James Bond, Team America, etc.

[highthief]

*shrug* - how many times have Russians, Europeans, South Americans, Africans, Arabs, etc been villified by US films and television? And how many times have domestic audiences cheered when the evil (Cuban, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, insert your favorite foreigner here) gets his comeupance. It's just the other side of the coin, and nothing to get riled about.

[Cynthetiq]

Watch some of the Hong Kong movies like Swordsman II and Once Upon a Time in China, they all show their "fear" of Western influence (British and Americans) and capitalism. It's more subtle than this, but yes I agree, as money frees itself these things will become something of interest to some markets.

[ubertuber]

It's not just action films either... I was watching the trailer for Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World and thinking about this same issue. Mel Brooks may think that a light hearted look at cultural interactions is a good thing (and it might even BE a good thing). But on the other hand, sometimes it is hard to believe that someone is trying to laugh with you instead of at you. I think there are lots of moments in just the trailer to that film that would easily be interpreted as western culture having fun at the expense of Islam.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by ubertuber

It's not just action films either... I was watching the trailer for Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World and thinking about this same issue. Mel Brooks may think that a light hearted look at cultural interactions is a good thing (and it might even BE a good thing). But on the other hand, sometimes it is hard to believe that someone is trying to laugh with you instead of at you. I think there are lots of moments in just the trailer to that film that would easily be interpreted as western culture having fun at the expense of Islam.

Very true. One of the problems with comedy is that it requires from the audience the ability to laugh at themselves. If they cannot, then it's more than likely offensive to that audience (or just a joke that didn't connect.)

I've not seen the trailers for LCMW yet, only seen the bills for them on the walls. I dunno how interested I am in it since they have the Taj Mahal in the background and well, it's in Agra, India, which is not traditionally considered a Muslim country. Is that supposed to be humor or irony? I'm not sure since it's Albert Brooks.

edit: better yet, I'm more thinking of Looking for Humor in ARAB World...

[Zyr]

I am unsurprised. What I do like, is that while this is obviously portaying america as the bad guy, it's not just taking the unfounded fears of the public and trying to cash in on them. They've taken an actual incident, and built something around that.

[Rekna]

yeah zyr hollywood does that all the time. look at behind enemy lines, enemy at the gate, blackhawk down, ect. it is common to take a single event in a war and make a full movie out of it. I don't have a problem with this movie. I'm a firm believer in freedom of speech and also in a nations sovernty. If American's are upset about this then they need to realize that they are being a hypocrit.

[Poppinjay]

Originally Posted by ubertuber

It's not just action films either... I was watching the trailer for Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World and thinking about this same issue. Mel Brooks may think that a light hearted look at cultural interactions is a good thing (and it might even BE a good thing). But on the other hand, sometimes it is hard to believe that someone is trying to laugh with you instead of at you. I think there are lots of moments in just the trailer to that film that would easily be interpreted as western culture having fun at the expense of Islam.

Wasn't that ALBERT Brooks? Was the film worth seeing? I've been on the fence about shelling out the $8 for that one.

[ubertuber]

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Wasn't that ALBERT Brooks? Was the film worth seeing? I've been on the fence about shelling out the $8 for that one.

You're right - Albert Brooks it is. Early morning typo. I've got 0 plans to see that movie, so I can't help you out there.

[Coppertop]

This is hardly news. What American movie studio doesn't put its own spin on such matters? Some will undoubtedly become upset over this - such is life.

[Charlatan]

The problem is, those who will be upset by these films will completely fail to see that American films have been doing it forever.

[xepherys]

It's a good eye opener. I mean, I've always just assumed such movies existed, but I've never encountered one myself. I wonder if there will be importable copies of the movie available (subtitled I'm sure). Also, I wonder what kind of governmental flags I'd get for ordering such a thing.

At any rate, no American should be uspet by this. I think it is what it is... and there is no harm in it. We have plenty of anti-Americans right here in America. Why get mad at some half the world away?

[Charlatan]

If you think about it... Gary Busey and Billy Zane have made careers being American villians (Lethal Weapon and Dead Calm anyone?). What's the big deal if he makes films in another part of the world?

I also found it interesting to read the response from the producer of the film:

"These were only a few of the human rights violations by the U.S. in Iraq that the press covered and we followed," Mr. Ozdener said. "We did not intend to insult American people or their values, but only wanted to portray a real tragedy there."

I can easily see the exact same words coming out of a US producer trying to explain why he was villifying an Arab or a German or a Japanese... etc. These films sound like good stories told by storytellers. They know their audience and what they like to hear and see. I don't see this a propaganda per se, rather it is just good business sense.

[Ustwo]

Well after all Turkey IS trying to get into the EU so it should fit nicely with their mindset.

On the other hand, it seems that hollywood doesn't like even a hint of islamic terrorists in films but goes for the mostly mythical white neo-nazi types.

[irateplatypus]

weak sauce.

"These were only a few of the human rights violations by the U.S. in Iraq that the press covered and we followed," Mr. Ozdener said. "We did not intend to insult American people or their values, but only wanted to portray a real tragedy there."

the real problem is that they've invented a tragedy and are marketing it as a real one. that's fundamentally dishonest. an over-the-top north korean bond villain is much different than a story marketed as containing some truth while our men and women walk the same streets depicted in the film.

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I can easily see the exact same words coming out of a US producer trying to explain why he was villifying an Arab or a German or a Japanese... etc. These films sound like good stories told by storytellers. They know their audience and what they like to hear and see. I don't see this a propaganda per se, rather it is just good business sense.

What does it say about the Turkish population if a gruesome fabrication of anti-american and anti-semitic themes is what "they like to hear and see"?

[ubertuber]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

What does it say about the Turkish population if a gruesome fabrication of anti-american and anti-semitic themes is what "they like to hear and see"?

For one thing it says that they are primed for such a message by other things they are exposed to, including their own experience. And mind you, this is TURKEY we're talking about here, not some 4th world nation somewhere!

Originally Posted by ustwo

On the other hand, it seems that hollywood doesn't like even a hint of islamic terrorists in films but goes for the mostly mythical white neo-nazi types.

American Dreamz (upcoming)
True Lies
The Siege
Black Hawk Down
Flight 93 (upcoming)
WTC (upcoming)
Sleeper Cell (hit series on Showtime)
Syriana
Lord of War
Team America (granted, it knocks everyone)
Gunner Palace
Spies Like Us

I made this list in about 6 minutes. Point taken?

[Charlatan]

See post 11...

Actually a North Korean madman is exactly like this... it doesn't matter if there really is a North Korean madman or not. The fact is, most Americans already think NK is rife with madmen and the Bond film simply reinforces the ideology.

[Willravel]

Looks like an interesting movie. I'll probably see it when it comes out with subtitles. Billy Zane hasn't done anything decent for years, and it'd be interesting to see him in something that's getting attention. As for the anti-American theme...oh well. Who honestly cares? It's just a movie. Do you think clowns were offended by Jack Nicholson's portreil of the Joker in Batman? Or maybe shrinks were offended by Billy Crystal in Analize This?

[Ustwo]

American Dreamz (upcoming) - Never heard of it.
True Lies - Prior to 9-11 would never get made now
The Siege - Never saw it
Black Hawk Down - Hard to fabricate a REAL EVENT (at least so soon after it happened)
Flight 93 (upcoming) - Ditto
WTC (upcoming) - Ditto
Sleep Cell (hit series on Showtime) - Never saw it but the promo's had them as white/black americans, which isn't quite the same.
Syriana - Never saw it bound to make the US look bad
Lord of War - Never saw it
Team America (granted, it knocks everyone) - No point in adding this one
Gunner Palace - Never saw it
Spies Like Us - Russians vrs American

[kutulu]

Originally Posted by ubertuber

I made this list in about 6 minutes. Point taken?

Don't bother. Sometimes it's better to let someone live in their fantasy land.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by kutulu

Don't bother. Sometimes it's better to let someone live in their fantasy land.

Yes, Americans have never done anything to piss off anyone. There is no way to view American's as the bad guy.

American's make films that make American's look bad... Oh! I see. This isn't about the content, it's about taking jobs and money out of the US. How dare they make films outside of Hollywood. How dare they tell stories that are important to them. How dare they?

[irateplatypus]

charlatan exhibits a crucial divide between two camps: those that have real-life consequences imposed upon them by world events, and those for whom principles are purely an academic exercise. the latter only possible by hard-nosed sacrifices by the former.

when I see my fellow US servicemen being portrayed as sadistic thugs (by my own countrymen) in a country bordering one in which they are engaged in a life-or-death struggle, i face the very real possibility that an unemployed youth in a Turkish slum somewhere may see this film and cross the iraqi border to drive a bomb-truck into my humvee.

the predictable rebuttal is always a permutation of the "we do it too" notion. as if a democratic west were no different than nazi germany, ruthless islamists, militaristic japan, or the soviet union. by drawing the moral equivalency line where they have, they effectively are saying that there is no right and wrong or that neither side can claim to have a larger share of it. indeed, if there is no moral difference between north korea and the US (or the UK, canada, italy etc.) then such thinking would be right on the mark.

but those who deal in such ridiculous platitudes would never choose to live in Pyongyang even though they feel entitled to equate it w/their home institutions.

that's why you saw so many roaring lions after the Sept 11th attacks, the prospect of the failed ideologies in the mid-east having actual consequences to the hustle-and-bustle of daily life charged the populace. five years later, i think there are fewer people willing to risk death on a frostbitten Afghan mountainside.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

American Dreamz (upcoming) - Never heard of it.
True Lies - Prior to 9-11 would never get made now
The Siege - Never saw it
Black Hawk Down - Hard to fabricate a REAL EVENT (at least so soon after it happened)
Flight 93 (upcoming) - Ditto
WTC (upcoming) - Ditto
Sleep Cell (hit series on Showtime) - Never saw it but the promo's had them as white/black americans, which isn't quite the same.
Syriana - Never saw it bound to make the US look bad
Lord of War - Never saw it
Team America (granted, it knocks everyone) - No point in adding this one
Gunner Palace - Never saw it
Spies Like Us - Russians vrs American

obviously why you see it as White Neo Nazi types instead of Arab/Islam terrorists.

True Lies 2 is in preproduction still, there's a rewrite for a plane scene which is supposed to be a pivotal role in the movie.

[irateplatypus]

i've seen nearly every (released) movie on Ubertuber's list... but i don't think they serve well in making his point.

those make mention of terrorists in one way of the other... but i think only "True Lies" does so in a way that doesn't make extraordinary concessions to political correctness or absurdity (Team America, i'm looking at you). nothing like a parallel to the movie addressed in the topic.

[kutulu]

Have you ever seen 24? Arabs are always the good guys in that show.

This is so freaking stupid. If we are going to piss and moan about movies made that portray Americans as evil villans then I guess we need to start drafting apologies to every nation we ever made a film about that portrayed them as the evil ones.

The whining about what gets released from Hollywood needs to stop. It's just pathetic.

[ubertuber]

My point was simply that ustwo's claim that "hollywood doesn't like even a hint of islamic terrorists in films" is unsupportable. I think my list backed it up quite nicely. You guys are right - whining about Hollywood is pointless, in a way. One the one hand, it won't affect what they produce, and on the other, I don't think anyone wants America to become the kind of country that would try to control Hollywood.

Still, I don't think it is as simple as irate makes it to claim that we're an injured party here - there is a defined map to defaming other countries in popular media, and we drew it. My discomfort with the Turkish movie comes from two places. First, that we make movies that are similar (not an excuse for anyone, but a source of discomfort for me nonetheless), and second, that the Turkish movies strikes a little too close to home. I'm NOT saying that it is anything other than a hopeless exaggeration or extortion of fact (although I suppose there's no way for me to know that), just that it rubs the wrong way because we're already uncomfortable with some aspects of our liberation of Iraq.

[Mojo_PeiPei]

Team America is one of the most politically relevant movies of the modern era.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

the predictable rebuttal is always a permutation of the "we do it too" notion. as if a democratic west were no different than nazi germany, ruthless islamists, militaristic japan, or the soviet union. by drawing the moral equivalency line where they have, they effectively are saying that there is no right and wrong or that neither side can claim to have a larger share of it. indeed, if there is no moral difference between north korea and the US (or the UK, canada, italy etc.) then such thinking would be right on the mark.

I am not taking the position that "we do it too". What I am saying is why should we be upset or suprised when cultural industries make products that reflect the culture and the cultural bias of the world in which it is created?

I am not surprised that the US produces films like True Lies or Syriana. They are two very different types of film that deal, in part, with the same subject. They reflect the rich tapestry that makes up the US experience but ultimately are both very aware of their paying audience.

Two things are at work: 1) the desire to tell a story that will find an audience. 2) Part of finding an audience means giving them what they want to see while (more or less) playing with their expectations within the genre.

Are you suggesting that viewers are so naive that they cannot tell fact from fiction? Perhaps you are right. This turkish film will go and make more suicide bombers. I know after I saw Syriana I wanted to punch oil executives in the face.

Do we know if the stories they are telling are even in part true? If they are, why shouldn't they tell these stories. Isn't that the job of a storyteller? These films are not govenment propaganda anymore than True Lies, the latest James Bond film, Black Hawk Down, etc.

I can understand your discomfort. Get used to it. It's a big world out there and not everyone sees things your way.

[Rekna]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

American Dreamz (upcoming) - Never heard of it.
True Lies - Prior to 9-11 would never get made now
The Siege - Never saw it
Black Hawk Down - Hard to fabricate a REAL EVENT (at least so soon after it happened)
Flight 93 (upcoming) - Ditto
WTC (upcoming) - Ditto
Sleep Cell (hit series on Showtime) - Never saw it but the promo's had them as white/black americans, which isn't quite the same.
Syriana - Never saw it bound to make the US look bad
Lord of War - Never saw it
Team America (granted, it knocks everyone) - No point in adding this one
Gunner Palace - Never saw it
Spies Like Us - Russians vrs American

How about NCIS? There was a whole long multi season plot involving an islamic terrorist targeting the main characters... he even killed one of them. Or how about Lost and Syid, he is forced by the US government to spy on a islamic terror cell. How about 24.... I could go on and on...

[Rekna]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

charlatan exhibits a crucial divide between two camps: those that have real-life consequences imposed upon them by world events, and those for whom principles are purely an academic exercise. the latter only possible by hard-nosed sacrifices by the former.

when I see my fellow US servicemen being portrayed as sadistic thugs (by my own countrymen) in a country bordering one in which they are engaged in a life-or-death struggle, i face the very real possibility that an unemployed youth in a Turkish slum somewhere may see this film and cross the iraqi border to drive a bomb-truck into my humvee.

the predictable rebuttal is always a permutation of the "we do it too" notion. as if a democratic west were no different than nazi germany, ruthless islamists, militaristic japan, or the soviet union. by drawing the moral equivalency line where they have, they effectively are saying that there is no right and wrong or that neither side can claim to have a larger share of it. indeed, if there is no moral difference between north korea and the US (or the UK, canada, italy etc.) then such thinking would be right on the mark.

but those who deal in such ridiculous platitudes would never choose to live in Pyongyang even though they feel entitled to equate it w/their home institutions.

that's why you saw so many roaring lions after the Sept 11th attacks, the prospect of the failed ideologies in the mid-east having actual consequences to the hustle-and-bustle of daily life charged the populace. five years later, i think there are fewer people willing to risk death on a frostbitten Afghan mountainside.

Isn't the reverse also true? In the US we see movies having Arab men being thugs and bad guys. Don't our young see this and some of them enlist in the army? Or perhaps take matters into their own hands and target local arabs with hatred and sometimes violence?

[genuinegirly]

ummm..

WOW.

Thank you for starting this thread.

[Daniel_]

For years I saw many films that portrayed Eastern Europeans as bad guys

Then the cold war thawed and for a while, all the bad guys seemed to be English

Then the middle east became the focus of attention and bad guys were Arabs.

It's refreshing to hear about a movie that makes the baddies American. Can you honestly say that not one commander out there in the gulf is psychotic? Nobody ever claimed that Brando's character in Apocalypse Now was a reflection on all American servicemen.

There have been many movies in history that portray American servicemen as monsters - the thing that seems unusual here is that this film isn't a Hollywood Vietnam movie, it's a foreign film.

When I was a kid it was called "getting a taste of your own medicine".

Get used to it - it's going to happen more and more as the rest of the world catches up to you in wealth.

[Rekna]

Originally Posted by kutulu

Have you ever seen 24? Arabs are always the good guys in that show.

This is so freaking stupid. If we are going to piss and moan about movies made that portray Americans as evil villans then I guess we need to start drafting apologies to every nation we ever made a film about that portrayed them as the evil ones.

The whining about what gets released from Hollywood needs to stop. It's just pathetic.

that is because a Muslim originization made a big stink over them being cast as villans in the first seasons and the show writers made an agreement to cast them as heroes in order to prevent getting sued.

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by kutulu

Have you ever seen 24? Arabs are always the good guys in that show.

This is so freaking stupid. If we are going to piss and moan about movies made that portray Americans as evil villans then I guess we need to start drafting apologies to every nation we ever made a film about that portrayed them as the evil ones.

The whining about what gets released from Hollywood needs to stop. It's just pathetic.

Did you even see season 4?

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

charlatan exhibits a crucial divide between two camps: those that have real-life consequences imposed upon them by world events, and those for whom principles are purely an academic exercise. the latter only possible by hard-nosed sacrifices by the former.

when I see my fellow US servicemen being portrayed as sadistic thugs (by my own countrymen) in a country bordering one in which they are engaged in a life-or-death struggle, i face the very real possibility that an unemployed youth in a Turkish slum somewhere may see this film and cross the iraqi border to drive a bomb-truck into my humvee.

the predictable rebuttal is always a permutation of the "we do it too" notion. as if a democratic west were no different than nazi germany, ruthless islamists, militaristic japan, or the soviet union. by drawing the moral equivalency line where they have, they effectively are saying that there is no right and wrong or that neither side can claim to have a larger share of it. indeed, if there is no moral difference between north korea and the US (or the UK, canada, italy etc.) then such thinking would be right on the mark.

but those who deal in such ridiculous platitudes would never choose to live in Pyongyang even though they feel entitled to equate it w/their home institutions.

that's why you saw so many roaring lions after the Sept 11th attacks, the prospect of the failed ideologies in the mid-east having actual consequences to the hustle-and-bustle of daily life charged the populace. five years later, i think there are fewer people willing to risk death on a frostbitten Afghan mountainside.

While I agree with you in principle, there's some flaw to that logic. My wife and I are both soldiers, so the idea of even one more disenfranchised bomber going after US troops makes me a bit uneasy. But the reality is that there are probably (no, I'da dare say definitely) Iraqi men and women that fear one more Army security team or Marine convoy going through their town. That one soldier with a happy trigger finger and a bad outlook on things for still being deployed, despite being told he'd be home by Christmas, might mow down their kids, family or friends. If you are in the serivce, you should know factually that it DOES and HAS happened. We have friendly fire on our own troops, can you logically believe we never accidentally shoot an innocent child or adult? Do you think it's NEVER not an accident? If so, you must not have been in the military for very long.

At any rate, this is not meant to be insulting to you, irateplatypus. As brothers-at-arms, I feel compelled to NOT upset you regarding this particular topic. But be advised that the academic unrest is the realistic unrest for some, but not all. Every situation in every combat zone is a bit different... YMMV

Also, I'd say we ALL have real world consequences... some people simply have the luxury of ignoring them for the time being. It won't be that way forever... it never is...

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Are you suggesting that viewers are so naive that they cannot tell fact from fiction? Perhaps you are right. This turkish film will go and make more suicide bombers. I know after I saw Syriana I wanted to punch oil executives in the face.

Do we know if the stories they are telling are even in part true? If they are, why shouldn't they tell these stories. Isn't that the job of a storyteller? These films are not govenment propaganda anymore than True Lies, the latest James Bond film, Black Hawk Down, etc.

First, I'd like to correct an adjective used above. I don't believe naivity has anything to do with it. I fear it is blatant ignorance. Yes, many viewers probbaly cannot tell fact from fiction, believing each to be the other in some instances.

Take a look at a subject such as the Rape of Nanking. Many young Japanese (say... 16-26) probably still either don't KNOW about this atrocity, or have been led to believe it is false. I know from experience that at least some Japanese college students still don't believe it to be the truth. Even in a society with free press and expression, do you think the public, or even the military itself is told about everything that we do or don't do in Iraq and Afghanistan? I *KNOW* that the military keeps things from the public. They keep things from other branches. In the name of security, they keep things from even each other within a given platoon or even squad. I assure you that Americans have commited atrocities in Iraq. I don't believe that America has a desire to DO so... but it does not prevent it from happening. Do you think Abu Graib was an isolated incident? You think those few were the only prisoners abused? Do you honestly feel those were the WORST abuses?

So what is in part true, and in part false, can never really be determined with 100% accuracy. Americans can get up in arms about something like this movie... but myself, even as a soldier, cannot move myself to feel they are doing something truly wrong in making such a movie. In fact, I fight for people in this country to have those rights, how can I try to say that people in other countries having the same right is bad?

[xepherys]

Originally Posted by Daniel_

There have been many movies in history that portray American servicemen as monsters - the thing that seems unusual here is that this film isn't a Hollywood Vietnam movie, it's a foreign film.

Exactly... does anyone really think all soldiers (or even many) in Vietnam were like Animal Mother from Full Metal Jacket?

[Brewmaniac]

Movies are Movies, they are made as entertainment, make a statement and ultimately to make a profit. As the market changes so do the villians. Remember it all started with Cowboys and Indians but I'm not even going there! Peace

[kutulu]

Originally Posted by willravel

Did you even see season 4?

Ever hear of sarcasm?

[Rekna]

Originally Posted by kutulu

Ever hear of sarcasm?

hah, i didn't catch your sarcasm either....