Worship?
 

I have always wondered something about people who worship God/gods/whoever. If God is all powerful, which he would have to be to be God, then why would you have to worship him? It cant be to let him know that you are sincere in your belief, if he is all powerful he would already know that. Is he supposed to get pleasure out of it? (pleasure seems too "this worldly" to be something associated with God). Just want to know your thoughts.

Since he's also good, he wants what's best for us. Since we were created by him, what's best for us is to worship him. So basically, he does it for our pleasure.

Good question! I think worship is about bringing like minded people together to have them support one another in their quest to be the best they can be. Worship also is time set aside for us to focus on what is important in life.

This doesnt say WHY you would *worship* God though. Simply because he created us isnt really an answer. And your last line makes it seem like worship is a selfish act since it brings about personal pleasure (also would pleasure other people in an indirect way I suppose if you were in a congregation).

I like your response though sexymama, thanks!

Not sure i follow all of your assumptions. Namely that God must be all-powerful to be God. But moreover, this assumption doesn't add much to the question of why worship. So i'll skip it.

First, you need to ask what worship is. For some people, it's an exercise in self rightiousness, where they idolize themsleves and conflate their rightiousness with God's. They sing praises to God's name, but have themselves in mind. For them, the why is because they love hearing pretty words about who they are.

For others, it's about self-flagellation...listing their failures and disengaging from God because they're "too bad" or "too weak", etc... For them, the why is probably because they've come to crisis in their idenity and fear rejection.

And sometimes, people come to worship out of gratitude for all that God is doing in the world, and to celebrate the deep love that God has shown. For them, the why is simple: it makes sense to say thank you for this amazing gift. They come to be reconciled to this love, to remind themselves that they have choosen to live in it's blessing.

And these are just three that i thought of off the top of my head-all ones i've done at somepoint or another. Mind you, i don't really suggest the first two, but i thought it might be better to be realistic. It's like asking why someone has a conversation with a loved one: there are as many answers as there are conversations. Each one has a different motivation.... And sometimes it's a fight, sometimes it's just joking around...and sometimes it's as serious as can be...

Because God has self-esteem issues?

Ever think how lonely it must be to be God?

worshiping is to gain the favor of the gods, so they give us what we want. i dont believe in a god though, for several reasons.

My beef with God is that, yeah, he might be lonely, but making people for the purpose of having them worship him, and zapping those who don't want to? It just doesn't seem... nice.

God gave us free will. But those of us who don't obey him burn forever. Mmm, nice free will, Lord. Thanks.

That's the point, I believe. He created us, laid down the rules and then gave us the freedom to do whatever we chose. We have the ability to follow Him or ignore Him; it's completely up to us.

That we have to be held accountable for our actions is no big surprise. Our whole society is built on the same concept: you break the law, you pay for it.

Being God, and being our creator, he gets to tell US what to do, not the other way around. If we don't like it, we can file a complaint, but that doesn't mean He's going to change anything.

Unfair? Maybe in OUR minds, but then again, tough shit.

No matter how you worship, or to what extent, truly meaningful worship is always accepted by God.

what is the point of "worship" if you dont mean it? do what you want to show you believe in God; why lie to yourself and him?

Actions over Words; Quality over Quantity.

But he's PERFECT. He doesn't GET lonely. :rolleyes:

Some good responses :) Though I think some of you give God far too many human qualities for him to be perfect.

I personally don't think Hell is burning in fire, but rather, that you get your wish:

God leaves you alone.

I don't see why God has to be lonely. Isn't he admitting to the existance of other divine entities? - "You shall no other gods have before me". Just saying that "I am a jealous god" indicates that there are other entities worthy of being called gods, otherwise the sentence would have been "I am jealous".

To me, the sentences in the Bible used to point out that there is only one God, are the same sentences that claim there's a multitude.

Ever consider worshipping keeps God from getting lonely?
Do you never call your mom? It's a two way street, they gave you life, a little thanks and praise now and again wouldn't hurt.

we are created in his image

Comparing God to our Mums doesn't really help.
My mom gave me life. I don't worship her.

Even if my existance is owed to the act of an entity, the problem still remains; Which entity?

Don't forget that some people in this thread aren't Christians. I agree with you that respect and love is a two-way street, though.

On the Selfishness of Worship:

Just because you do something because it's pleasurable doesn't mean that it's a selfish act. First of all, I'm not convinced that even if the fact that it's pleasurable is the only reason, that that action is for that reason selfish. If I go down to the soup kitchen to serve the poor because it gives me pleasure, does that make it selfish? Perhaps not as praiseworthy as it might otherwise be, but selfish? Second of all, most of our actions are done for a variety of reasons, and worshipping God is no exception. Some of the reasons people worship God are habit, gratitude, pride, love, need, and I suspect one could add many more. Some are good reasons and some are bad.

Mothers
Well, sure you don't worship your mother. But in ordinary cases, you feel grateful to her. But what God has done for us is on a much larger scale than that. It's not just that he started us off -- it is in him that we live and breathe and have our being. God IS our Being.

This also answers the question of which entity -- if we owe our existence to an entity in such a robust sense, there can only be one such entity.

Hmm, how about this, if you don't believe in God then don't worry about it. See like me, I don't believe in Pickles, since no one can show me a pickle plant, so I don't stay up late and worry about it.

I don't think that equating God to pickles is going to sway me in any direction.

I don't need faith to know pickles exist.
I've eaten them, I've used them in cooking, and the word faith does therefore not apply. It's common knowledge.
Empirical evidence supports their existance.

I guess this is what it boils down to for most atheists/agnostics - the lack of empirical evidence.

it's reflection. i don't think i'm gonna drop dead and then be able to play poker with G-d and smoke a doobie with my relatives. but i do believe i'm part of something, and i pray, in a way, worship.

so i don't think you have to believe in an almighty zeuslike figure that eats planets and shits life to worship it. even if my death means i'm completely gone (and i don't think that's how it'll be, exactly), i don't think it's a waste of time to pray.

I don't need faith to know pickles exist.
I've eaten them, I've used them in cooking, and the word faith does therefore not apply. It's common knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

"I have a realtionship with God, he watches over me, talks to me, gives me guidance, saves my soul etc......"
It's common knowledge.

Just to move the discussion away from Christianity, most branches of Wicca (and I know that I can't speak for them all) don't generally engage in what people would traditionally call "worship". We work with the larger forces in the universe, and while we respect them, we know that they don't need our worship.

Hey, if you show me God, I'll show you a pickle. :)

Look, prosequence, this thread is about what God supposedly gets out of people worshipping Him.

We're both equally guilty of derailing it, but I think it's either time to stop, or to open a new thread.

I agree. So lets go back to the basics... from the thread title, the arguement, that there IS a God (or there would be no question) and you want to know what he gets out of worship....
I'll hazard a guess and say companionship and love.

WOW! Really? I bet Santa still brings your presents, the Tooth Fairy leave a quarter under your pillow, and the Easter Bunny brings you a basket of chocolates too, huh?

What exactly does he say to you? What does he do for you? What other imaginary voices are going on inside your head? That seems to be common knowledge to me. http://www.boomspeed.com/sixate/icon_rolleyes.gif

sevenatenine... must be hard not being loved by those around you. God loves you.
We talk about you all the time, we wish you had a happier childhood, we really do, but he needed you to be stronger because of the great plans in store for you. We hope that you can forgive those who you feel do you wrong.... so cheer up and know that you are loved.

All I have to say about that is : :lol: :lol: :lol:

You know nothing about me. You think I'm an angry piece of shit because I don't believe in your god, and that I won't be happy unless I'm more like you. No thanks. I like myself just the way I am. :)

Sixate: Being rude and beligerant is hardly the way to make your point...

Sorry, but I'm not being ignorant. This is something that drives me nuts about religion. He stated that god speaks to him. You don't find that odd? Why does he only speak to him? I asked serious questions that were ignored. I simply compared god, which nobody can prove exists, to other imaginary figures. He stated it was common knowledge that god does speak to him. So how is it not rude that he obviously thinks people who don't believe that are obviously dumb? Then he basically replies that I had a fucked up childhood, among other things, and he finds there to be no way in hell that I can possibly be happy unless I believe as he does. Now tell me that isn't rude. He knows nothing about me. My childhood was fine and I have plenty of people who care about me. I have never told anyone to believe as I do cause they'll be happier if they are like me. I'm all for someone believing whatever they want, and I don't think that people can't be happy if they think differently than me. That would be rude and uneducated.

As usual I'm being misunderstood, again.

sixate... what makes you think I was talking to you ???
and God doesn't only speak to me.
But lets get back to the original question.
Sixate what do you think God gets from worship?

I don't believe that there is a god in any way shape or form. So I don't think god gets anything out of it. I don't get the point of prayer/worship. It makes no sense to me and I think people should direct their energy toward other things, but if you are happy through your prayer/worship then so be it and continue. I'll never understand it just as you'll never understand my opinion.

I haven't always believed in God, thus I believe it does give me some insight into your opinion. I thank you for your acceptance though, it's much appreciated.

NOTE: it's a good thing we don't all agree anyway... pretty boring threads if that was the case.

sixate- you don't beleive in a god or you don't believe in any kind of spiritual concept whatsoever?

my point above was that we humans can get something out of worship whether or not it turns on the powers that be...

Sixate

I'm just curious. I've been on these boards a bit now and you seem to be the most outspoken atheist here. Do you happen to have any good friends who believe in God?

Most of my close friends are "atheists for life" and yet we still get along fine, even though I believe in God. We don't push our views on each other, and if we talk about religion, we're just giving each other shit, because we're friends and we can do that. True friends, I believe, can talk about whatever without their stupid beliefs getting in the way.

I guess what I'm asking is: If someone believes in God, do you discredit them as a person because of that? I mean, obviously, if they don't shove their views down your throat. Is it possible for the two of you to get along without religion coming up?

Hope I didn't offend.;)

I have many friends who are very religious. Actually, all of my friends IRL believe in god. I don't have a problem with someone believing in a higher power, but what I do have a problem with is most of my friends who do believe try to force their religion upon me. They try to convert me almost every single time I see them, which happens to be daily. I will admit that I do have some friends who have no clue that I'm atheist and it's because I don't go running around like a madman saying, "Look at me! I'm atheist and you better be too." That's basically what religious people do. They preach and try to force things upon people who aren't interested. My friends who I have debated this with have basically said that there is no way in hell that I will ever be converted. It's absolutely impossible. Yet the continue with their bullshit.

I dated a christian girl for a while and I told her from day one that I was atheist so if it was a problem for her it wouldn't go anywhere. She said that she didn't have a problem and I had no problem with her being religious...... Until she tried to convert me all the time and sick her family on me. Every single time a met a new family member of hers her mom would tell them I was atheist. People don't realize what a big deal that is. I was judged as a pile of shit with no morals the second I met these people. Most never even bothered to get to know me. The funny thing is most of them cheated on their wives/husbands or treated their families like shit and did way too many drugs and drank too fucking much, but I'm the one with no morals!? I do none of that shit, and I don't need to believe in a god to know the difference between right and wrong. I also remember the day that her mother asked me about religion. Luckily, she knew me enough to know what I'm all about, but she still tried to convert me all the damn time. When I told her I was atheist she cried her eyes out because until that point I was the greatest guy she ever knew, and my girlies mom's opinion of me being atheist was a big reason I finally broke up with her. It created many problems, and now I will never date another christian girl because I knw she won't be able to handle the fact that I don't believe. Her and her family always said that they felt sorry for me because my life was so empty. I heard it so many times that I couldn't take it any more and I told them all to fuck off!

It's always a fucking struggle and it does nothing but piss me off when people don't mind their fucking business and keep their noses up their own asses. I have never and will never tell anyone to believe as I do. So if I seem to get shitty about this kind of crap then I apologize, but I have many reasons for being this way and I don't have the time to type it all out.

You asked if I discredit people for believing in god.... The ones who shove their shit in my face I absolutely do discredit them and think they're morons. People who don't try to convert me I have plenty of respect for.

And no, you didn't offend. I almost never get offended. :)

I don't believe in either.

Right on.

.

yeah, is god the guy with a flowing white robe & beard with little sheep all around him? probably not.

i am able to get my head around worship/prayer by thinking of it like this:

talking to (insert your name for god here) is the best way to admit/believe that i do not rule the universe. something bigger than me does.

i used to only do "foxhole prayers": god, get me outta this one, PLEASE!! lately i'm trying more to pray more for the ability to understand why god's will sometimes includes so much fucked up stuff, and being grateful for things i have that are not at all guaranteed.

i still maintain that prayer/relflection/meditation is useful for atheists as well. i certainly don't think it's any kind of requirement for living. i like jimk's statement.

sixate: i've been there, that sucks. thanks for sharing that. i totally agree that people who think people MUST worship to be "saved" are missing the point.

It's just a way of saying, "Thaks for creating me."

worship is something submissive people seem to enjoy.
I'm not interested in that for myself.

I don't worship
I have faith

There's difference.
One you are letting it lead you,
the other you believe in and are a part of.

One you need a commander,
the other is a soul that is a guide for your soul.

One you are told,
the other you just know.

To me God is not the lord of it all,
To me God is the essense of it all.

There is a difference.

yes, but the original question was specifically about "worship"

I don't think the notion of faith is in question here.

art: do you say thank you? do you say I'm sorry? Do you say i love you?

My experience with worship does not remind me of submission any more than these interactions do... There is a profound contrition involved, but when God's mercy is equally profound and tangible, the net result is not a feeling of having submitted myself...but resolving to dedicate myself. Loyalty can be enforced or it can be inspired....a person can be there out of fear or love....

chavos, yes. the words used to describe what you are asking me would be words like courtesy, consideration, care, and even love (which, I believe is a word that has meaning even though its meanings are far-reaching and astoundingly variable.)

"worship" is a different matter entirely from those concepts.

That can be your assertion, and i will respect it. But that is a statement in direct opposition to my experience of worship, so understand when i say i believe you are making a mistake of over-generalization.

Well, to pursue this in the interest of having a language that actually means something, chavos - I would say I am not making a mistake of over-generalization. That is not a cogent response here. If you'd like to discuss the nature of the abstractions we call "words" in relation to the experience of living, then we are discussing linguistics - which has as its subject matter the generalization of experience known as language.

If I may answer for you, I believe you are saying that in your personal experience these terms have a meaning for you that they do not necessarily have for me. Or to put it another way, you are accusing me of generalizing from my experience to yours.

I respect your unique personal experience. The problem is we share a common language. If we can't agree on terminology we won't be able to get very far in discussing our differences.

okay...the original statement was that worship was something that submissive people seem to enjoy.

My counter arguement is that you were lumping together many disparate experiences and calling them all "worship." While this has some truth to it, it also obscures the variety of human responses to and expressions of worship of the divine. What possible meaning does the word worship have outside of human experience after all? Why bother defineing the value of the concept, but for the actual experiecnes that people have with it?

What you seem to be trying for here is one definition of a complex concept. I wish you the best of luck, but that hardly furthers intelligent debate. Some people find submissive fufillment in some kinds of worship experiences. Does it logically follow that worship in and of it self is an act of submission? No!

Look...the fallacy is thus. For the set of behaviors known as worship, there are points that lie with in the set known as submission. Therefore, the set known as worhsip is = to the set known as submission.

I think you can see why i object.

Yes, of course.
Very well put, by the way.
Thanks,

We are, in fact, at the point where we disagree - subjectively and personally on a subject which has both personal and interpersonal dimensions.

That's the way it is with religion. We have a very subjective experience within the objective context of "the real world".

It's a big part of the tension that exists in the world and between people - some of it is evidenced in discussions here and what is far worse, much of this tension is played out on the historical stage - the politicalization of religion, etc.

As far as I'm concerned we've outlined the territory mutually and with civility. That's all that can be expected. Even more, I believe we've evidenced an understanding and respect for each other's views...

i can agree to that...thank you as well.

No Art, I'm saying I do NOT worship.
Worship is a act of giving yourself to your God.

Faith which is what I have, is just knowing you are part of something greater.

I do NOT go through any religious ritual,
nor believe that any action that I have is directly acted upon or influenced by God.

I was answering the question.

rogue, by saying "Faith which is what I have, is just knowing you are part of something greater" it does appear you are equating the concepts of faith and knowledge.

"Knowing" as defined in acknowledgement or accepting.

NOT " to know" as defined in experience & learning.

There is a difference, even the word is spelled the same.

And this IS possible in language.

Knowledge & faith are NOT the same thing.

yes.
I think we are talking about "belief" here.
thanks.

Wor·ship
Pronunciation: 'w&r-sh&p
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

There are many reasons why people go through the motions of worship. That is simply because we are all different and motivated differently. I think the pure reason that God would choose for us to worship him is to maintain order in the world and in our lives.

We have learned that meditation of any sort including prayer, religious study, and eastern meditation practices improve our emotional health and in turn our physical health.

Also if we "worship=respect or admiration for or devotion to" a supreme being that made the laws that we are to live by we will be more willing to obey those laws.

Also if we recognise him as our God and creator then we should on our own desire to revere him and pay him respect.

As for the laws that the Christian God set out, there are frequently multiple reasons for them. There are so many ways to interpret things and so many different ways of looking at things that I don't think this is a question that can be answered with a blanket statement. You have to come up with your own reason for worshiping. These reasons listed above are the ones that I personally see as the reason for giving God my "worship."