a different question for christians...
 

What would it take for you to believe there is no god?

and

If you found out there was no god how would it change your life? What would you do differently?

It's a faith thing really. I expect there to be no proof. So I really can't think of anything to shake that.
And if I really found out that there was no God, well I think it'd just cut all church services out of my schedule. Other than that, I think I'd stick to the local law and the "Do unto others..." rule. It's good advice regardless of whether it came from the son of God or just a carpenter. Keeps us civilized.

People lose faith all the time. It can be both shaken and stirred:)

being able to prove there is no god is just as easy as proving that there is a God, except people might get really angry with you for disproving the basis of their lifestyle. reminds me of that simpsons episode when Homer proves God doesnt exist using math.. Ned sees it and his head drops and he looks hopeless for a second, but burns the paper before anyone else sees it haha

i think that if there was somehow a way to prove that there wasn't a supreme being, then my lifestyle, which is a mixture of ingrained christian values and teenage rebellion, wouldn't change much. i might do more drugs and have more sex, because there wouldnt be that guilty feeling afterwards. other than that.. if everyone lived a more christ-like life, the world would be exponentially better off, no?

God is just another name for our creator.
The creator has had many names.
Ala, Cronos, earth mother, Mad scienctist, The big bang, and Yehway just to name a few.
We exist, therefore we are, and somewhere there was a begining.
That is who/what god is.....creation!
You can prove the method true or false, but you can never never disprove whatever spark started it all.
The name is just what christians have chosen to call the begining

Alpha, i am not that smart or good at thinking, so im sorry if i misinterpreted, but the last line in your post seems contradictory to the first line, and your use of deductive reasoning is misleading and just seems off to me.

how'd you go from to God being creation in itself? Christians believe this, but you seem to go off the tracks from there.

The christian God is perfect - omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal. when you compared God to the gods of other religions (or mad scientists, mother earths, etc.), you went from God, the proper noun - a being in himself, to the common noun 'god' - any kind of supreme being that people believe is their creator and worship him as such.

the reason that the christian God is not just what christians choose to call the begining is because God was not the begining, he didn't have one - he is eternal. certianly God created everything and set reality as we know it into play, but your last statement is inaccurate in describing the christian God, as the spark that started it all was merely an action made by God and not the begining of it all.

I don't see the conflict.
God is creation.......creation is god.
christianity is simply one of many proposed methods of creation, nameing God as the creator....the creator of creation is creation

If there is only one true god, then the worshiped creator of any religion is god.

I thought it was funny seeing the post asking something similar to athiests and it just reminded me of a question that I had been asking christians for a long time. One person I talked to answered the second question by saying they would commit suicide and another said he would steal a ferrari!!! I am happy there is a bible and that people believe in something. Because as soon as some people think there are no consequences for their actions they tend to get a little fucking crazy.

You guys are getting off topic. Just try to imagine that you have found 100% proof that there is no god and there is no afterlife. This doesnt relate to just christians so if your jewish or hindu just try to imagine a life knowing that there is no higher power.

It wouldn't matter to me.
A life well lived is it's own reward!
The golden rule still works, even without a higher power
Treat others with kindness....kindness is returned from most
Treat others unkind.......people will treat you unkind.

This is just hilarious... What do you mean "no consequences"? Do these people assume they'll get away with it? There's always a government, it's law enforcement, and your fellow humans to keep you in check. Even without a God to judge you, you'll still be judged by your peers. Hence, you need to obey the laws, which (because of historical reasons) are pretty much the laws as dictated in the bible.

Ergo, there *should* be no change whatsoever.

Anyone thinking about becoming a criminal after God's demise had better think long and hard about the results of their actions... :)

if someone somehow managed to erase every memory of love, forgiveness and connection out of my brain, and then isolate me completely...that might do it. But it would be pretty farking tough.

wtf does this have to do with anything?

Anyway, back to the topic! It wouldnt really change my life any. As someone already said, living a good life is reward enough on its own. Actually it would probably improve my life, since I wouldnt have all these christians telling me Im going to burn in hell for not believing. Actually I would probably call them and make fun of them.

Fascinating. Nowhere near the response rate of the atheist thread. Wonder why? Are atheists more willing to concieve of a world with God than Christians concieving of a world without.

Maybe this thread is a statement on its' own.

i think even if there was proof alot of people would still believe what they hope for.....its very easy to ignore facts when you want too.....i think we do it every day...i feel we are ignorant about alot of things other than existance/inexistance of God too just because we want to be.

Well in all fairness this thread only started a couple days ago. But the "atheist thread" started a couple weeks ago. Just give it some time.

Perhaps i was making the statement that my faith in God is inextricably linked to my knowledge of love, forgiveness and connection. Only by not knowing these things could I reasonably expect to lose my faith. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt...

I think the question is largely meaningless as there are some who cannot possibly conceive that the god they worship doesn't actually exist and any evidence that you produced would not budge them from their stance. Having said that, it would be impossible to prove God doesn't exist considering all the loopholes that are ascribed to him (just as it's impossible to prove he does exist).

As far as number of reply's to my post I think its more or less because the majority of the members on these forums are agnostic or athiest. As far as personal reasons for not replying I would agree that christians would have a harder time imagining what its like to not believe. Not all of them mind you, but a lot of them.

A large part of christianity is faith.
an unbending, close minded faith.
christians believe they know the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
they believe their faith will be rewarded in heaven.
Are they right?
Thats not up to us to judge
for my self, I intend to keep an open mind
I put my faith into what can be proven, and keep a watchful eye on the things that can't.
because; one day, all will be known.

I think most sophisticated religious/spiritual types recognize that the historical/real truth of scriptures has little to nothing to do with religious truth.

If I tell someone the truth it doesnt really matter if I am right about other things.... The separation of message and messenger is important.

I have tons of proof that there is no god, but one day I woke up and I believed. I really can't explain it.

A valid argument with true premises proving the nonexistence of God.

Mr. Spacemonkey: Noted that fact prior to posting, that is why I said "response rate", not "number of posts".

actually, it's impossible to prove that something doesn't exist. 200 years ago i could have told you with complete certainty and proof that x-rays didn't exist, but i would have been wrong. we just didn't have had the technology to detect them. so basically, something that we can not detect with our biological senses (smell, touch, sight, hearing and taste) does not mean it doesn't exist (as x-rays can be detected through other means) but it also doesn't mean that it does. but we will never be able to detect anything that doesn't exist because, well, it doesn't exist. but something that does exist may also not be able to be detected because we just haven't developed the ability yet.

so you can't prove god doesn't exist, but as long as god chooses not to show himself, it is a valid belief. and until god shows up and lets us know he's here, or we figure out a way to detect his presence, it is also just as valid to believe that he does exist, he's just not showing himself.

I don't really think it would matter all that much if I found out that there is no God. I mean the only wany It could be proven to me is that when I die there is no heaven, and since I would be dead I wouldn't really notice would I?

I'm Jewish, but same idea.
 

1. nothing (everything)
2. nothing (everything)

So what difference does it make if you didn't believe in god but acted the same way? Why do you choose to believe if the end result is the same even if you didn't?

Edit: Btw I think you're wrong that people will treat you kindly if you are a virtuous person. If you've ever met a developed antisocial person you'll realize it's not like that.

I honestly think I would be sad, I have a hard time believing there is Nothing after this life, what would be the point? I don't think there would be a point. Whee lets live for an extremely short period of time in human history have relatively no impact on the world then die... Just doesn't sit well.

I don't really know how to answer the first, but I don't think my life would change all that much. I like who I am and how I behave and probably wouldn't alter it much.

It is impossible for God to be proven or disproven, so I find it hard to speculate how I would react to some sort of "human justified proof" either way.

If I was somehow convinced that God didn't exist, then of course it would change my life. It would become boring and somewhat meaningless.

if you don't mind my asking, why would no god make life meaningless? is pleasing the big guy in the sky the only thing that can give life meaning?

In short, yes! Go read Ecclesiastes written by Solomon, the wisest man to ever live. His conclusion of "everything under the sun" (everything not of God) was: "Vanity of vanities, all is vanity."

If the wisest man to ever live came to the conclusion that everything apart from God was vanity, I'm guessing he was right. If there was no God, first of all we wouldn't be here and secondly life would have no purpose since our only purpose in life is to bring glory and honor to Him.

ditto.

Perhaps one of the most debatable statements I ever read. Wisdom is immeasurable.

Spend some time and study out Solomon's life and make a decision for yourself as far as if he was the wisest man ever. The man was lacking nothing and pretty much tried it all. He asked the Lord for wisdom and it was given to him.

I think potential wisdom is immeasurable because we can always gain and grow in our wisdom and skill in living. But you can measure a person and say person A is more wise than person B just by looking at their life and seeing how they live it. With this in mind and knowing Solomon's life, it can be said that he was the wisest man to ever live.

there may be some danger in telling someone to go to the text to see Solomon's wisdom...it also documents his infidelity to God, breaking the Covenant. Ecclesiatus, which was probably not written by Solomon, does make good points for operative theism...that life works better with faith, and that may be all the proof you need. It's a good read no matter what, but i don't reccomend that people only read of the Wisdom tradition to see what faith is about...it leaves out a lot.

Good point chavos, Ecclesiastes is not the best place to start and it can be misread if you don't first have your faith in God firmly planted. But once that faith is there, it is a great book to be able to praise God for.

As for the author, that's a discussion for another forum. I would like to hear your evidence and reasoning as to who the author may be. I thought it was pretty clearly laid out, but new views and ideas are always welcome.

I set up a forum for that discussion, please join!
Author of Ecclesiastes Forum

What would be the point of living if there was NOTHING after this life, there would be no point, might as well lay down and die, because it's all a big waste of time.

Wrong! Life is Oh so much more precious when you realsie that this is all there is.

study anthropology, that'll do it for ya.

Christian arguments they equipped me with during my church days:

1 - If [pick one of the following: "the kindness of man," "this wonderful world," "the Bible"] doesn't convince you that there is a God, then miracles won't, either. The Israelites didn't even believe in Jesus when he was walking around healing the dead: what makes you think you would be any different?

You'll get to hear this chestnut if you assert that a world with God and a world without God wouldn't be very different because God doesn't seem to be doing anything that's not explainable by nature. What makes me think I'd be different? Well, if a dude came and turned my Gatorade into wine, I think I'd listen to what he has to say. But anecdotal miracle stories, near-death experiences, and people telling me how much THE LORD has changed their lives aren't as believable.

2 - Life without God is meaningless! If there's no afterlife, why don't you just go and kill youself?

You learn, after turning your back on God, to make your own meaning... there's no escaping death, but there is such a thing as having lived a full, regretless life.

im sorry they told you that, because it's a lie; Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, we believe the Messiah has not come yet (the entire universe is not at peace is it?), Jesus was just a man as any of us are. I believe in him as i believe any other man/person/thing exists.

But did he have a cure for leporacy?

i dunnno

It would take deep thinking, several (a whole lot) valid fucking points, and a willingness to 'change my mind'.

I suppose for me it would take what a lot of athiests say. A lot of proof. As of right now.. its rather hard to give some good hard proof for EITHER direction. I originally didn't give a shit about god.. no matter what my parents said.. I only went to church because they finally woke me up. On my own I came to the rationalization of God. I've seen a lot and experienced so much that it cannot be natural. Enough that even chemical that could produce visions... can't work... Just too many. I can't ignore the possibility, but at this point in my life it would take a lot.

Honestly? It wouldn't change a thing. I don't live my life the way I do because of God, its just that my life style fits with God. Don't take this to think I believe in him for Security. Its simply that I like how I'm living my life. If God didn't exist.. I'd probably "give props" to whoever started up the whole God thing, laugh a little, then go on living my life.

Not really. I find anthropology awesome. Probably going to take a minor in it. God can still exist even by looking at history and science.

Bravo, gak. Took me a long time to find out that academic curiousity and faith were not mutually exlusive. A few of my friends are anthro majors...and their project on the protestant student group at my college taught me a great deal about the ways in which i related to the community and to God. Knowledge can do great things for a relationship with the divine.

You know if I had written that it would be worded the same but would be entirely sarcasm...

The wisest man on earth believes that the only purpose to life is honoring an invisible sky wizard. In essence, the smartest thing to do is to use a very finite amount of time worshipping a wizard who promises eterenal life. The only catch is that you have no way of knowing if the diety exists or not.

Yeah, real smart guy...

Invisible Sky Wizard

STOP USING THIS FUCKING PHRASE!

He is no invisible man in the clouds, I don't give a flying fuck what Carlin says. GOD IS NOT IN THE FUCKING CLOUDS! its called Heaven, then there is in space known as the heavens.. and then there is above the clouds which is portrayed as serene place where the sun shines brightly.. even though we know its filled with turbulence and stuffs... please stop with this cloud shit, it gets annoying. Sorry but thats a pet peeve.

Actually. I do know he exists. I don't look for him to hand me a car and think SEE HE EXISTS! I see how he works through things.. I see how he speaks to me... how he performs his works. That is certainly enough for me.

So you object to the "sky" part but not "invisible wizard" ? Would you be equally offended by the phrase "above the clouds, turbulance defying invisible wizard" ?

Actually, it's quite impossible to prove that God doesn't exist. Fortunately, it's not our responsibility to do so. The burden of proof lies on those who claims he DOES exist.

Well, they're already being irrational in the first place...

The wisest man to ever live....quite an assumtion on your part, interesting though. I was raised christian, and at the age of 18 realized the "god", I had believed in was fabricated. It did change my life. True sorrow at first. 20 years later, I realize my life actually began when my mind opened. We all believe that which our intellect will allow, and no one is wrong in the way they direct such faith as they have.

hahahahaha. That makes me laugh. I do assume you're just arguing, to just argue.. and from that I'm able to laugh at what you just said. :)

Delete This Post.

There are thousands of people who are dead who had a major impact on the world irregardless of weather God exists. If everyone took your view Beltrukus we would still be living in caves or in nomadic tribes constantly warring with others. If you're saying those without political power have no impact, just consider what kid of future your children will have with such a defeatist attitude.
IMHO, even without God or some higher being the point of this life is to enjoy yourself, help others when possible (if that brings you enjoyment), and leave this world in better shape than it was given to you so future generations of humans can enjoy their existance here.

peeve
 

that must be one hellova peeve