Never Been Single. I Need Help!

[FlatLand Flyer]

Ok, a little back story.

I married my high school sweetheart. She was my first girlfriend, kiss, lover, everything. Through life, we moved away to get educated and just basically live with each other. That was all well and good I guess, but we became unhappy with each other and we are now divorced.

So, I have always been painfully shy with women. I did not pursue the ex-wife. She pursued me and made all the first moves. I know that this is not what normally happens. I know that I need to get the ball rolling with women so to speak. I am introverted. I like to sit back and listen to people and chime in when I think it is worth it, even with my friends.

Obviously what I am saying is that I have no idea how to approach a woman, how to act, what to say, everything. I am 29 years old and lack these basic social skills. My friends will talk to a girl at a bar and try to get them to talk to me, but I guess they must not like that because it does not happen or get past hello.

I can walk up to a girl and say hello, but then what the hell do I do after that? I am clueless to signals and as far as I know only one girl has ever had any interest in me.

I am afraid of being alone for the rest of my life and I want to develop some skills and if possible, play the field a little and see what is out there.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Taja]

Flatland, from a woman's point of view, I can tell you this ... be yourself, be honest, be straight forward. And if you have a chance to meet women outside of a bar scene, try it.

[Zeraph]

The reality is there aren't any skills different from any other social interaction. You talk to women like you talk to people. Like you talk to your friends. Where you go after Hello is whatever you want. You just get a conversation rolling like you would with a friend you just met to someone you've known for years. The truth is its all the same. All you lack is confidence. You can get that when you decide you want it. Simple as that. Though I understand its harder than it sounds of course, but that's what the bottom line is.

You already know the ques. They're the same as when you had a wife. If you seriously just think about it straight up, without being shy about it, it's all very simple. Just apply your common sense and get some confidence.

[FlatLand Flyer]

Originally Posted by Taja

And if you have a chance to meet women outside of a bar scene, try it.

Where? I have been going to the gym to get myself in respectable shape and there are some girls there I am interested in, but I figure they just want to work out and not get hit on when they are sweaty.

I joined a dating site and that has been a complete bust. No one will talk to me it seems and I have sent messages to lots of the girls on there.

Originally Posted by Zeraph

All you lack is confidence.

Believe me, I know this. Confidence, self esteem, and a complete lack of experience are really holding me back. It's sad, but I have never even asked a girl out on a date.

[Xerxys]

Originally Posted by FlatLand Flyer

Believe me, I know this. Confidence, self esteem, and a complete lack of experience are really holding me back. It's sad, but I have never even asked a girl out on a date.

Ohhh, OK, well then, there's the problem then. Go do it.

I'm not joking. Walk up to that cute cashier at the grocery store and ask her if she eats. If she says yes, ask her out on a lunch, brunch, linner, dinner etc etc etc .... if she says no who cares man, you asked her out ..... Now, after the cashier, go home, slap yourself in front of the mirror, then read this ...

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/hall-fa...rls-101-a.html

All of it, it has 13 pages dude. I'll know if you don't read it all.

But seriously, dude, YOU HAVE TO ASK HER OUT!!! IT'S THE ONLY WAY!! you will only understand once you do.


**nostalgically wishes he could taunt you till you ask her**

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by FlatLand Flyer

Where? I have been going to the gym to get myself in respectable shape and there are some girls there I am interested in, but I figure they just want to work out and not get hit on when they are sweaty.

I joined a dating site and that has been a complete bust. No one will talk to me it seems and I have sent messages to lots of the girls on there.



Believe me, I know this. Confidence, self esteem, and a complete lack of experience are really holding me back. It's sad, but I have never even asked a girl out on a date.

I know this sounds too easy when we say it but life is how you percieve it man. You aren't really a "shy model" of man. There is no such thing. Man is man, and you have some innate traits but being frightened and misinformed isn't something your born with.

So here's what you do. Think about what you're good at. Be honest with yourself. Don't lie to yourself and say that you are overly good at something or enjoy something for the sake of fitting some persona you want for yourself. Don't lie to yourself and say you are bad at something because you feel it isn't as socially acceptable as baseball or reading a book (ie: model cars; accept you love gluing shit and painting it).

Now think about your weaknesses. Again, don't lie to yourself. If you aren't actually shy, don't let the little voice you've created over the years tell yourself you are. Just sit down and really think about what am I.

Then, here comes the magic part: Accept it. Accept you are who you are and be okay with it. Be okay with the fact you're an asshole (because, dude, everyone is and if everyone is then no one is). In the end you are what you want to be within the parameters of what you accept.

Here's what I accept: I am (at the moment) overly social, non-committal, manipulative, intelligent, creative, and charming. I am not incredibly handsome, super kind, tolerant, or patient. And within that I do the things that make me happy and fuck the rest.

Make the list, accept the list, do what makes you happy within that list. Done.

[Xerxys]

punkmusicfan21, I have a question about your list ... more philosophical than anything really. Once one has accepted themselves for who they are, do you find that they work more to improve themselves, or does complacency kick in and you become stagnant water?

Not a loaded question really, I just want to know if the method you employed works for most people. How did it work for you?

[genuinegirly]

You're definitely not going to make any progress sitting in your armchair at home debating how to go about these things.

Introduce yourself to every girl you meet. There's a cute chick working at the video game store you frequent? At the movie theatre? What about that receptionist at the company you visited last week? The woman who comes by once a week to water the indoor plants at your office? Are you part of a club?

WHY NOT ask the women at your gym?????!!?? Being asked out while you're hot, sweaty, and without makeup is a compliment. Start attending the yoga or barre classes, start asking the girls out.

Have a list of interesting dates waiting to try. For the chick at the gym: would you like to go on a hike on Saturday? I know this great little trail.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by Xerxys

punkmusicfan21, I have a question about your list ... more philosophical than anything really. Once one has accepted themselves for who they are, do you find that they work more to improve themselves, or does complacency kick in and you become stagnant water?

Not a loaded question really, I just want to know if the method you employed works for most people. How did it work for you?

I just assume things here aren't loaded; that would be a little silly.

It's far more complex then that simple thing I just typed out but it's an issue of perception vs. distinction. Very simply put:

every person has what we'll call a stock character; the person they are everyday that they know every facet of. That stock character isn't you so much as it is a mask; a simple set of generalizations disguised as life rules which have been built upon for most of your life (that is more complicated but that the simple explanation). Most people do not recognize that they have two natural personalities: themselves (let's say The Actor) and the stock character (the part the actor is playing). So they are convinced that their process (voice in their head which isn't you as it's independent to you; for instance, try to stop it from going) is actually them (see: lack of confidence, waffling, fear, etc)

The Stock Character lives in a world of personal truths. Opinions as fact, if you will. In this philosophy you accept that truth is independent of your will. So the difference between personal truth and truth would be similar to this: "My mom didn't make supper tonight, what a bitch" with 'My mom didn't make supper' being the truth (a factual event that took place) and 'what a bitch' is the personal truth. We are animals of language and the two are often confused. The problem with personal truth is that it's fictitious and unwarranted.

So, skipping a bit in the middle, perception is more personal truth then distinction, which we could say is independent truth. When you distinguish (ie: recognize the truth of the situation) your stock character (which is what I'm suggesting the OP do) you leave yourself open to growth.

So yes, accepting equates natural growth. not contrived growth or fictitious growth (see: "last time I dated a shy girl, and she said "---" I got laid, which means I'm getting somewhere" OR "I need to be a nicer guy; that will get me what i want"). The problem being what you want is as simple as "this makes me happy" and "this makes me unhappy" and no self-enforced regiment can change that.

I hope that's not confusing and kind of answers your question. it's a very complex life philosophy. Essentially it adds up to "being present to life; not filtering but accepting and growing".

[soma]

FlatLand Flyer, I feel you bro. My GF was the initiator when we first hooked up and when she left me, I felt so lost. I started dating random girls but that never went anywhere because I didn't know wtf I was doing. Then, a few months down the road, I discovered the world of pickup. I know the community here has a negative view of pickup, but it helped me IMMENSELY both with women and my general confidence.

All the best

edit: Like you, this ex of mine was my first everything. We were together for almost 2 years.
edit: i thought punkmusicfan was the OP for some reason. fail for me

[FlatLand Flyer]

Originally Posted by soma

Then, a few months down the road, I discovered the world of pickup. I know the community here has a negative view of pickup, but it helped me IMMENSELY both with women and my general confidence.


edit: Like you, this ex of mine was my first everything. We were together for almost 2 years.

Pickup. Is this a book or just trial and error stuff?

I was with my girl for almost 13 years and she was basically the only person and friend in my life for 8 of those.

Xerxys,

I will definitely be reading all 13 pages of that thread. Thank you and thank you to all those that replied.

[Xerxys]

Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21

I just assume things here aren't loaded; that would be a little silly.

It's far more complex then that simple thing I just typed out but it's an issue of perception vs. distinction. Very simply put:

every person has what we'll call a stock character; the person they are everyday that they know every facet of. That stock character isn't you so much as it is a mask; a simple set of generalizations disguised as life rules which have been built upon for most of your life (that is more complicated but that the simple explanation). Most people do not recognize that they have two natural personalities: themselves (let's say The Actor) and the stock character (the part the actor is playing). So they are convinced that their process (voice in their head which isn't you as it's independent to you; for instance, try to stop it from going) is actually them (see: lack of confidence, waffling, fear, etc)

The Stock Character lives in a world of personal truths. Opinions as fact, if you will. In this philosophy you accept that truth is independent of your will. So the difference between personal truth and truth would be similar to this: "My mom didn't make supper tonight, what a bitch" with 'My mom didn't make supper' being the truth (a factual event that took place) and 'what a bitch' is the personal truth. We are animals of language and the two are often confused. The problem with personal truth is that it's fictitious and unwarranted.

So, skipping a bit in the middle, perception is more personal truth then distinction, which we could say is independent truth. When you distinguish (ie: recognize the truth of the situation) your stock character (which is what I'm suggesting the OP do) you leave yourself open to growth.

So yes, accepting equates natural growth. not contrived growth or fictitious growth (see: "last time I dated a shy girl, and she said "---" I got laid, which means I'm getting somewhere" OR "I need to be a nicer guy; that will get me what i want"). The problem being what you want is as simple as "this makes me happy" and "this makes me unhappy" and no self-enforced regiment can change that.

I hope that's not confusing and kind of answers your question. it's a very complex life philosophy. Essentially it adds up to "being present to life; not filtering but accepting and growing".

Dude this is freakin' Awesome, thanks ....

Originally Posted by FlatLand Flyer

Pickup. Is this a book or just trial and error stuff? ...

Pickup can be trial and error or you can refine the skills spread by various aficionados who have written the books on it. MSD may frown upon such behavior but even he agrees that once you get past the stage of trying to look like a stud and actually become far more confident, you develop a tendency to make better friends, girls and guys ... all round health.

Pickup is wrongly titled because it centers on the male slut. But those (all of them) who have perfected the skill, grew out of that stage.

[soma]

Originally Posted by Xerxys

Pickup is wrongly titled because it centers on the male slut. But those (all of them) who have perfected the skill, grew out of that stage.

Well put. Pickup definitely gets a bad wrap because of this.

[dlish]

Flat - what you REALLy need to do is CHILL out

what i really need to say is that you need to be yourself. dont go out of your way to meet someone or try your best pickup line on a check out chick or some chick at the gym you dont know who is really in a loving relationship.

go out with some friends, a mixed group will always be good, and just be yourself. be laid back, talk to everyone (and yes that includes the girls you are attracted to). in my experience women are attracted to happy and confidant males, but dont go putting on a fake show. talk to everyone about general conversations and topics YOU are interested in. just dont talk shit.

i dont see the logic in honing in on one chick you have in mind before you even know who she is. then after a few weeks or months, you narrow your selection after meeting 10, 20 50 girls. narrow your circles, but remember to BE YOURSELF, and be honest. nobody wants to get involved with someone who is putting on an act and is no where like the person they really are.

[kramus]

I often see what appear to be eligible members of the fairer sex when I have taken interest courses in the arts. I am always in a relationship during these courses, but I still have eyes, and I can enjoy the presence of an attractive woman without needing to hook up.

No doubt this holds true for many things, but if you start taking the occasional evening course in a field that you either are interested in or are willing to explore, you could gain from the course itself, and you just might find yourself in conversation with an appealing person. And if the appealing person is already paired off, you may be able to get an in with available singles that classmates want you to hook up with.

Win Win

[Crack]

Are you me? You sound like me...

anyways.. I haven't read many of the responses, I am sure there is plenty of sage advice in there. I just wanted to give you a heads up on something you might have missed out on, or just never realized: Look like an idiot. Be an idiot. No one cares. You are not going to trick someone into liking you, you are not going to trick them into loving you. There is no magic bullet that can you use and women will just fall on their knees around you. Act a fool, be shy, be timid, but talk, and don't be discouraged if the first 20 girls you talk to slap you in the face (what are you saying!?). You might never see any of those girls again.

Carpe Diem, Gather Ye Rosebuds While Ye May, Et cetera and so forth..

you got that?

[Lindy]

Originally Posted by FlatLand Flyer

Where? I have been going to the gym to get myself in respectable shape and there are some girls there I am interested in, but I figure they just want to work out and not get hit on when they are sweaty.

Try to put yourself in places where you'll find people (including women) that share your interests. You do have interests, don't you? In your OP and other posts you don't say anything about yourself, except what you lack. Are you interested in mathematics, motorcycles, or music? Do you play poker, bridge, or Monopoly? Are you a geek, or a runner, or into meditation? Do you like museums, baseball, or old cars? Fishing, hunting, oil painting? Church, temple, or mosque? It is always easier to start up a conversation with someone when you have areas of commonality.
edit: FlatlandFlyer -- read kramus' post twice.

Originally Posted by dlish

....in my experience women are attracted to happy and confidant males, but dont go putting on a fake show. talk to everyone about general conversations and topics YOU are interested in. just dont talk shit....

And don't talk about your ex!! I went out on an arranged blind date once, and all the guy could talk about was his ex. I know that this should probably go without saying, but you may need to hear it. By the end of the evening I felt like I knew her (the ex) pretty well, but I didn't know him at all!

Lindy

[Redjake]

the main piece of advice I can give is that no one cares but you if you ask someone out and they say no. I used to terrify myself about asking girls out because of the "what ifs". It turns out no one cares about anyone but themselves when it comes to this stuff. so if you like a girl, just ask her out. if she says no, move on. if she says yes, your whole life will be turned upside down in a good way. just do it with no regrets.

[Shell]

Flatland Flyer...let me point out some red flags if i may:

Red Flag #1....Your "Location" is "Armpit of Hell"
Red Flag #2....Your finger gesture is an insult
Red Flag #3....deleted (explanation below)
Red Flag #4....you look like death

Just a wild guess but perhaps it's time to do an attitude check if you're looking for a nice lady for a long-term relationship.

[PonyPotato]

Shell: #3 isn't a valid point. Like you can't change your custom user title yet as a new user, the custom user titles go through "stages" until a user is approved to change their own. You will also be crazy, soon enough.

[MSD]

Originally Posted by Xerxys

go home, slap yourself in front of the mirror, then read this ...

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/hall-fa...rls-101-a.html

All of it, it has 13 pages dude. I'll know if you don't read it all.

I hate that thread and the fact that it's in the Hall of Fame is an unconcealable wart on the face of TFP. Bits of good advice strewn among shit.

Originally Posted by Xerxys

Pickup can be trial and error or you can refine the skills spread by various aficionados who have written the books on it. MSD may frown upon such behavior but even he agrees that once you get past the stage of trying to look like a stud and actually become far more confident, you develop a tendency to make better friends, girls and guys ... all round health.

Haha, am I really that predictable? Good call on my objecting, though.

There are four valuable things you can learn from the PUA community: Fake it until you make it, build confidence to make yourself a better person, the majority of pickup artists are worthless human beings, and the average pickup artist is a pathetic manchild with stunted social development who has a warped perspective of interpersonal relationships and bases his self-worth on how many warm holes he's stuck his dick into because he substitutes his ability to follow a formula and manipulate women for having any redeeming qualities as a person.

Pickup is wrongly titled because it centers on the male slut. But those (all of them) who have perfected the skill, grew out of that stage.

Not really. Maybe a few of the famous ones, but take a look at Mystery. Confident, women find him attractive, and when a long-term girlfriend broke up with him he ended up in a psych hospital for a few weeks because he couldn't deal with it. The "community" (not just guys who read The Game and think they can get women) aside from the famous ones is full of the sleaziest, most reprehensible people you can find in daily life.

[Shell]

Originally Posted by PonyPotato

Shell: #3 isn't a valid point. Like you can't change your custom user title yet as a new user, the custom user titles go through "stages" until a user is approved to change their own. You will also be crazy, soon enough.

Thank you, Pony, for informing me of protocol here and an apology to FlatlandFlyer...i'm new and didn't know that. I don't think i'm alone in being confused about the "custom user title". Why in the world would Admin choose this strange way of doing things (aka "upright" and "crazy")? So what will i be after "upright"? and "crazy"? and when will i be able to change it myself? Am i the only one uncomfortable with someone else tagging my name with a derogatory description? I have a healthy sense of humor but, if it's suppose to be humorous, that intention is not obvious to newbies.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by Shell

Thank you, Pony, for informing me of protocol here and an apology to FlatlandFlyer...i'm new and didn't know that. I don't think i'm alone in being confused about the "custom user title". Why in the world would Admin choose this strange way of doing things (aka "upright" and "crazy")? So what will i be after "upright"? and "crazy"? and when will i be able to change it myself? Am i the only one uncomfortable with someone else tagging my name with a derogatory description? I have a healthy sense of humor but, if it's suppose to be humorous, that intention is not obvious to newbies.

I wasn't aware that being described as "upright" was derogatory. And you earn the right to change your title after you've become a more active and permanent part of the community. Don't sweat it. It's just a word.

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21

It's just a word.

Punk.

...

The only way to get over this silly fear of rejection is to be rejected. I had to put on my big-boy scrotum a couple of times when I realized I was reluctant to ask a girl out because she was "above me" or whatever. Show interest. It's not a death sentence, it's a lotto ticket. Sometimes ya win, sometimes ya lose.

Perhaps I'm a serial monogamist by design. I don't like extended casual dating because it seems entirely too wasteful throw a crunkparty every time I wanna hang out with a lady. Perhaps I'm a cheap bastard or maybe I'm just tired of trading my life savings in for novelty. I wanna get to chores and substantial adventures... ya know, the stuff that couples do after the initial thrill of booze and sex wear off and quality entertainment is sought after.

[Shell]

Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21

I wasn't aware that being described as "upright" was derogatory. And you earn the right to change your title after you've become a more active and permanent part of the community. Don't sweat it. It's just a word.

I never said "upright", by itself, is derogatory...."crazy" is, and perhaps other "custom user title" stages. I'm too new to know what all the names are of the different stages. I believe "junkie" might be one and I'm not a junkie. I'm not trying to be a troublemaker. I just think it's a confusing system for newcomers. For instance, above, i mistakingly thought FlatlandFlyer had described himself as crazy which led me to analyze his problem incorrectly.

Am I the only one?

[Plan9]

Originally Posted by Shell

Am I the only one?

Could be.

[Xerxys]

MSD, your not predictable. But that picture ... scarred me for life.

OK, the reason I asked FlatLand Flyer to actually read the entire thing is because the first few pages look mighty attractive techniques then have a downward spiral, then back up, then back down. The key was to actually root out the good info. Beleive it or not, all the massive sites I've perused on the very subject of PUA is covered entirely in 13 pages of 40 posts long.

So, for the ones who "fake it till they make it" ...er, lets face it man, if you try hard enough you'll get laid by anyone. Sometimes all you have to do is simply be there at the right time. So no, "fake it till you make it" is a beginning concept but not one that is intended to last. More like target practice.

Building confidence to make yourself a better person, IS the point of the PUA community. Don't you understand that lack of self esteem for many of us begins with thinking were "sleaziest, most reprehensible people you can find in daily life". Your points number 3 and 4 are really the same. But we do want to be better.

Like Will smith in Hitch said "some of us actually 'like' women". Yes, 'like'. Not love, you don't love someone you don't know. We want to make friends. Lack of self esteem prevents that. So this ....

Originally Posted by MSD

...the average pickup artist is a pathetic manchild with stunted social development who has a warped perspective of interpersonal relationships and bases his self-worth on how many warm holes he's stuck his dick into because he substitutes his ability to follow a formula and manipulate women for having any redeeming qualities as a person...

... is also inacurate in a sense because what you described right there isn't really a pick up artists at all. I very much doubt anyone with that attitude would get to stick his dick in any hole with half a brain despite any of his PUA Skillz.

Originally Posted by MSD

...take a look at Mystery. Confident, women find him attractive, and when a long-term girlfriend broke up with him he ended up in a psych hospital for a few weeks because he couldn't deal with it...

Now Mystery, on the other hand... had daddy issues that he addressed the wrong way. Sure his social condition became some sort of double edged sword, one that's an archiles heel as well as a driver -(motivator/muse/obsession ... whatever you may call it) which drove him to the edge and made him fantastic at perfecting superficial abilities, learning how to drop bad and gaining good habits of the wrong kind. IMHO, he never really grew up. So in essence, he failed.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by Xerxys

MSD, your not predictable. But that picture ... scarred me for life.

OK, the reason I asked FlatLand Flyer to actually read the entire thing is because the first few pages look mighty attractive techniques then have a downward spiral, then back up, then back down. The key was to actually root out the good info. Beleive it or not, all the massive sites I've perused on the very subject of PUA is covered entirely in 13 pages of 40 posts long.

So, for the ones who "fake it till they make it" ...er, lets face it man, if you try hard enough you'll get laid by anyone. Sometimes all you have to do is simply be there at the right time. So no, "fake it till you make it" is a beginning concept but not one that is intended to last. More like target practice.

Building confidence to make yourself a better person, IS the point of the PUA community. Don't you understand that lack of self esteem for many of us begins with thinking were "sleaziest, most reprehensible people you can find in daily life". Your points number 3 and 4 are really the same. But we do want to be better.

Like Will smith in Hitch said "some of us actually 'like' women". Yes, 'like'. Not love, you don't love someone you don't know. We want to make friends. Lack of self esteem prevents that. So this ....



... is also inacurate in a sense because what you described right there isn't really a pick up artists at all. I very much doubt anyone with that attitude would get to stick his dick in any hole with half a brain despite any of his PUA Skillz.



Now Mystery, on the other hand... had daddy issues that he addressed the wrong way. Sure his social condition became some sort of double edged sword, one that's an archiles heel as well as a driver -(motivator/muse/obsession ... whatever you may call it) which drove him to the edge and made him fantastic at perfecting superficial abilities, learning how to drop bad and gaining good habits of the wrong kind. IMHO, he never really grew up. So in essence, he failed.

My opinion (it's said without negativity):

I personally think the idea of "Pick Up Artistry" is a huge step backwards for personal growth. Faking it is never going to be fulfilling; which is really what he is searching for. Purpose; not pussy.

And this argument just comes off as you being obtuse; putting a positive spin on a clearly negative tactic. Manipulation should never be mistaken for charm. Just like Usurping doesn't make a leader.

[Xerxys]

Manipulation? Positive spin?

Dude, you indicated somewhere (don't remember where, could be someone else with I associate with punk rock) that you don't have a problem with women or meeting peiople in general.

Have you ever paid attention to the things you do whilst in social settings? No you haven't. That's because it comes natural to you. Your body language. Your convos, what you say and when you say it.

It comes natural.

It doesn't for others. **points at himself** That's what PUA really is, a social science. It's what you do without thinking that we don't 'get'. If I manipulate others into liking me then so do you only you do it like it's a reflex reaction!

[Plan9]

So... PUA stuff is like weight training for the socially scrawny?

I've totally never heard of this type of activity / clique.

...

Relationship trauma recovery rules:

1. Don't be bitter.
2. Don't be cynical.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by Xerxys

Manipulation? Positive spin?

Dude, you indicated somewhere (don't remember where, could be someone else with I associate with punk rock) that you don't have a problem with women or meeting peiople in general.

Have you ever paid attention to the things you do whilst in social settings? No you haven't. That's because it comes natural to you. Your body language. Your convos, what you say and when you say it.

It comes natural.

It doesn't for others. **points at himself** That's what PUA really is, a social science. It's what you do without thinking that we don't 'get'. If I manipulate others into liking me then so do you only you do it like it's a reflex reaction!

haha it's my time to be obtuse.

No I don't have a problem meeting women but that's because it isn't an activity to me. It's natural because all things in life are dude. When you put a negative or positive connotation on things you limit it's possibilities. I bomb with girls as much as I don't. That's because some people are going to like ME (that is the person I am and am happy to be) and some aren't. Me being some manipulative asshole won't change that because I'd be giving up my own goals, happiness, and needs to fulfill some need to conquer. The problem with that being you'll feel it's emptiness over time. You aren't actually conquering because you're cheating the system.

And I'm human. I'm constantly, and obsessively, aware of my actions and my words. I kick myself too. But to think that "talking to someone" is a skill, you create the monster you claim to be fighting.

And I couldn't disagree more with the last paragraph. It's about as much a social science as McDonalds is to food. It's a cheap excuse to get by; to live without reflection. You'll create a cycle for yourself. Some sort of made-up personality. And at one point you'll forget that it's made up and spend all of your time trying to solve THAT. It's a terrible idea.

[Xerxys]

OK, I'll try to put it like this, if it's a made up personality then what does school do to you? Army? College? Church? Essentially any place that influences what your social senses will turn out like.

What makes people who are successful with women successful and what makes the loosers, loosers?

It's about changing who you are. How did cromps put it, copmplacency is the equivalent emotional masturbation? **chuckles** I have things that make me happy but god forbid I remain the same for the rest of my life.

[Martian]

Originally Posted by Xerxys

What makes people who are successful with women successful and what makes the loosers, loosers?

This:

Originally Posted by punkmusicfan21

I bomb with girls as much as I don't.

Recognition. Acceptance. Complete lack of fear.

I, too, was and am largely successful with the ladies (although I'm happily attached now). I didn't spring from my mother's womb and immediately seduce the nearest nurse, though.

I disagree with punkmusicfan21 a bit. Social interaction is a skill, but it's not one that is divided across genders. Talking to dudes isn't all that different from talking to ladies, except that with ladies it's possible that the talking could lead to more. Actually, even that's not different depending on what you're in to.

You want to be able to talk to women? Go do it. You don't need games or tricks or negs or any of that shit. You just go do it. You'll crash and burn sometimes, sure. That's a part of life. When it happens, you laugh it off and move on.

You don't have to read anything. If you have basic hygiene down and can string 2 sentences together you already have all the skills you need.

You want to meet women? Go meet women. Yeah, it's that easy.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by Martian

This:



Recognition. Acceptance. Complete lack of fear.

I, too, was and am largely successful with the ladies (although I'm happily attached now). I didn't spring from my mother's womb and immediately seduce the nearest nurse, though.

I disagree with punkmusicfan21 a bit. Social interaction is a skill, but it's not one that is divided across genders. Talking to dudes isn't all that different from talking to ladies, except that with ladies it's possible that the talking could lead to more. Actually, even that's not different depending on what you're in to.

You want to be able to talk to women? Go do it. You don't need games or tricks or negs or any of that shit. You just go do it. You'll crash and burn sometimes, sure. That's a part of life. When it happens, you laugh it off and move on.

You don't have to read anything. If you have basic hygiene down and can string 2 sentences together you already have all the skills you need.

You want to meet women? Go meet women. Yeah, it's that easy.

This is why I sing you captain and tenille sometimes when no one is watching.

[FlatLand Flyer]

Originally Posted by Shell

Flatland Flyer...let me point out some red flags if i may:

Red Flag #1....Your "Location" is "Armpit of Hell"
Red Flag #2....Your finger gesture is an insult
Red Flag #3....deleted (explanation below)
Red Flag #4....you look like death

Just a wild guess but perhaps it's time to do an attitude check if you're looking for a nice lady for a long-term relationship.

Just to explain myself:

#1....I lived in Eastern North Dakota when I signed up here. If you have lived there for 2 years or more, then you would understand. Thanks for reminding me to update it!
#2....You say insult, I say funny.
#4....Are you saying I look like death because of that little upper left corner of this post where it says my handle and has a little picture there? It is an internet forum.

To the rest of the responders, thanks for the input. I have a lot of changing to do. I am doing it physically. I just need to get over my introvertedness and shyness to start talking to some ladies.

Oh, and you guys are right. I do have a very low self-esteem and big fear of rejection. two things really suck. I might get some self-esteem if I don't get rejected, but then again I might get rejected because I have such low self-esteem.

This is going to take a lot of work on my part.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by FlatLand Flyer

Oh, and you guys are right. I do have a very low self-esteem and big fear of rejection. two things really suck. I might get some self-esteem if I don't get rejected, but then again I might get rejected because I have such low self-esteem.

This is going to take a lot of work on my part.

no dude, the opposite! The opposite! Self-esteem is a state of mind man.

Listen. If you are going to work on something try working on improving on the things that you enjoy. Work out. Learn how to play an instrument. Expand as a person by furthering yourself. Create a situation for yourself where you can feel confident.

But in the end it comes down to this: just do. It's not an issue of self-confidence if you ask me man. It's an issue of you refusing to break the mold. Just break it. Don't force change, but if what you truly want is to meet women then you'll be motivated to do it. If it's simply something you feel you must do to be "right" then it'll always feel wrong and awkward. Just do dude. Just do what feels right.

[Martian]

What my punk-enthralled compatriot is saying here is that the issue is one of paradigm, if you will.

I don't understand the fear of rejection. Rejection is not a bad thing. It's not a good thing either. It's simply a thing. It happens every single day and has happened at least once to nearly every human being on the planet. Most of us have faced it many, many times. In fact, one could even argue it's beneficial, as it saves you wasting time chasing a girl with whom you aren't getting anywhere.

It's like going on stage. Getting up in front of people for the first time is terrifying. By the tenth time you start to wonder what all the fuss was about.

That only helps you if you've been on stage in front of a crowd, naturally.

Look, here's what you do. Find the most beautiful, talented, sexy, smart, funny, amazing girl you can. Find the girl you have absolutely no chance with. Just be on the lookout for her, because I guarantee she's around. And when you find her, you go talk to her. Don't try to be smooth, don't worry about lines or your approach or any of that shit. You don't have to, because you already know what's going to happen before you start. So just. Go. Fucking. Talk. To. Her.

Assuming you're right about your chances with her (which you probably will be if I'm honest, although not for the reasons you likely imagine), what's the absolute worst that's going to happen? You make a new friend? Oh, quake in your boots! Fear and horror! Or maybe she even brushes you off, and you find out she's not worth your time after all (rule #1: Any girl who dismisses you without even talking to you first is probably not a girl you want to get to know anyway). And hey, maybe you get lucky. Maybe today is your day to win the lottery, and you turn out to be wrong.

Everybody's so fucking busy scrambling around looking for the secret to success with the ladies that they all seem to miss the fact that there's no fucking secret. punk is a goddamn theatre kid and I'm a nerd with a scruffy chin. C'mon, now. We can do this, and you think you can't?

Sack up already.

[thespian86]

Originally Posted by Martian

I don't understand the fear of rejection. Rejection is not a bad thing. It's not a good thing either. It's simply a thing. It happens every single day and has happened at least once to nearly every human being on the planet. Most of us have faced it many, many times. In fact, one could even argue it's beneficial, as it saves you wasting time chasing a girl with whom you aren't getting anywhere.

Thanks; perfectly put. I'd say that's true of almost everything. Which is why I don't fear things. I'm human. I'll win. I'll fail. C'est la vie.

[little_tippler]

I say that you go out and try it, like many other posters have said. It may suck at first, but the more you do it, the more natural and relaxed you'll feel. It's like anything in life - it takes practice.

Just recently I went out one night and had a guy approach me. He was nice enough, but was very direct in his advances, mainly because he was way too drunk. So that is one lesson - don't get too drunk or you'll probably ruin your chances. Another thing that turned me off was that he didn't have anything to talk about with me, didn't really try. I like a guy who has something intelligent to say and at least appears interested in who I am, not just that they like how I look and act.

[FlatLand Flyer]

Originally Posted by little_tippler

Another thing that turned me off was that he didn't have anything to talk about with me, didn't really try. I like a guy who has something intelligent to say and at least appears interested in who I am, not just that they like how I look and act.

Here is where I have a major problem. I see a girl and have no idea what to say. I am not talking about a line. If I see a girl at a bar for instance, she will probably be all dressed up and it might be loud in there. Do I say "Hello, what are thoughts on waterboarding?" Or do I say, "Hi, my name is Kyle and your ass looks great!".

I know, I know....practice, practice, practice.