Old cartoons

[raeanna74]

My daughter and my daycare kids and even my neighbor kids are GLUED to the TV when there's an older cartoon on like Tom and Jerry, Bugs Bunny, Yogi Bear or the Jetsons.

They're facinated by it. I know those were GOOD cartoons but I would have chalked it up to fond memories from when I was a kid. I'm not sure why the kids are so facinated by them. The shows have less flash, are less realistic graphically with none of the newer digital animation, and have older concepts such as the women not working outside the home or rarely seeing a woman in pants or even having black maids (in Tom and Jerry). I often see, suggestions or insinuations referring to historial figures or events, that I know had relavance historically but that most of the kids have no idea what they mean.

What draws the kids to these shows? What draws us as adults back to them? What old cartoon is your favorite? Mine is Tom and Jerry.

[rockogre]

I don't know why kids like these so well. My 5 year old granddaughter has a DVD player and I buy her the old cartoons on DVD. One of her favorite DVDs is Felix the Cat. It is all in black and white, and in the early ones no one even talks. She also likes the old Superman cartoons and Casper the friendly Ghost.

I love the old black and white Popeye cartoons and the Roadrunner myself.

[Bill O'Rights]

My 3 year old has a couple of DVDs with Felix the Cat, old style Woody the Woodpecker, Little Lulu, etc. He also a VHS of some old Yogi the Bear, Snagglepuss, Huckleberry Hound, and other Hannah Barbera cartoons from when Saturday morning TV was an event for me.
His absolute favorite, though is "Boopy Boop" (Betty Boop)

Frankly, I'd rather he watch some good old violent Bugs Bunny than some of the insipid crap served up today. If absolutely nothing else...Bugs Bunny (and friends) is a pretty good introduction to classical music.

[maleficent]

when we were kids, saturday morning was one of the few times we were allowed to hang out in front of the kids... mom and dad were usually sleeping off friday night and we got to watch cartoons - when we were really young.. like under age 10 - and probably younger.. my parents were one of the few families that had a color tv - so the neighborhood kids used to come over to our house to watch... (damn am I old)

I will always love Bugs... and the antics of the roadrunner and wyle e coyote

[Ample]

I like all the ones mentioned above. I would like to through in there Scooby Doo and Flinstones.

When I was a kid, I loved the after school cartoons on the ABC, CBS, and NBC. Transformers and GI Joe were my favorites.

[Cynthetiq]

today's cartoons are just vehicles for merchandising. they are designed in mind towards merchandising since that side is far more profitable than any advertising. Spongebob has made far more money from all the licensing than any of his advertising dollars.

The older cartoons were made out of love of animation and little else.

[highthief]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

today's cartoons are just vehicles for merchandising. they are designed in mind towards merchandising since that side is far more profitable than any advertising. Spongebob has made far more money from all the licensing than any of his advertising dollars.

The older cartoons were made out of love of animation and little else.

I think that's a bit of a stretch - I'm pretty sure someone was trying to make some cash off of cartoons back in the day, too.

The old stuff is just primal, like kids themselves. Violent, good versus evil morality plays, with lots of yuks and pratfalls.

[maleficent]

[QUOTE=Cynthetiq]today's cartoons are just vehicles for merchandising. [quote]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

The older cartoons were made out of love of animation and little else.

Ya mean I used to whine when my mother wouldnt shop at ACME supermarkets, in hopes of running into the coyote for no good reason?

[Average_Joe]

I can think of 3 possibilities:

1. The older cartoons like Bugs Bunny/Looney Toons, Tom & Jerry, and Woody Woodpecker are more action-oriented, albeit mindless and pointless. Many of the newer cartoons, especially Playhouse Disney or PBS Kids, are morally correct, but lack action for visual stimulation.

2. The older cartoons lasted ~5 minutes per story, while the newer cartoons are a full 20 minutes or so. Short attention spans like short TV clips.

3. If kids watch too much TV at home, and most do, they have probably seen all of the newer cartoons over and over again. The older cartoons are rarely shown anymore, so in effect, they are a new experience to the kids.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by highthief

I think that's a bit of a stretch - I'm pretty sure someone was trying to make some cash off of cartoons back in the day, too.

The old stuff is just primal, like kids themselves. Violent, good versus evil morality plays, with lots of yuks and pratfalls.

Not to the same degree they are today. Most memoribilia was given away. Today it's sold as product and licensed on boxes of soup and cereal.

Look for old Betty Boop, Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Wile E. Coyote, Foghorn Leghorn Memorabilia. There was little merchandising when they first came out. The licensing boom happened in the 80s.

In the 90s it grew to ridiculous amounts. Nickolodeon Consumer Products makes a very good portion of MTV's income.

Besides my current job, I had friends who's fathers worked at Hanna Barbara and Warner Bros. Cartoons as my background information.

In the past decade I made friends with the director of The Howdy Doody show and she recounts similar tales.

[VirFighter]

I always loved Wyle E Coyote/Road Runner cartoons. The whole WB collection was very enjoyable.

I think the beauty lies in the simplicity. Think about the old WB cartoons, it was always villan(elmer fudd, wyle e coyote, slyvester the cat) character coming up with some crazy scheme to capture the hero (buggs bunny, road runner, tweety bird). Average_Joe also made a good point, they were short! Kids have a short attention span, if you hit 'em with a several small segments you can keep them glued down for much longer trying to watch a few half hour shows in a row.

[maleficent]

Gossamer was the best of all monsters- they just don't make monsters like him anymore..

[rockogre]

Rocky and Bullwinkle! I forgot about them, along with Fractured Fairy Tales and Mr Peabody and Sherman. They are still funny today. They had a lot of in jokes and cultural references for the adults, and a lot of silliness for the kids.

When I was in the Navy, (Yes, I know, that gets old, but then I AM old), every day after work you had to hurry down to the berthing area on the ship or you wouldn't get a chair to watch Popeye the Sailor. We discovered that a lot of what Popeye said under his breath was for the grownups, and again, the silliness was for the kids. Every day there would be 10 or 12 of us watching Popeye before we did anything else. They just showed the old black and white ones. They are the best and are the ones where almost every one of the characters says things to themselves or talks under their breath.

My granddaughter also has a DVD of the old Popeye cartoons and will watch them over and over. She likes the Jeep, especially when he walks through walls or disappears and reappears.

[ryfo]

I liked Prince Planet, Marine Boy Astro Boy ,Gigantor and Kimba the white lion. I dont really watch cartoons any more cos we dont have kids, but while at the gym my wife will sometimes see Rugrats and she says that its quite funny. I am like Mal, saturday mornings was the best time, the only day I got up at 6am without a fight and I was always the first one up.

[highthief]

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Not to the same degree they are today. Most memoribilia was given away. Today it's sold as product and licensed on boxes of soup and cereal.

Look for old Betty Boop, Mickey Mouse, Bugs Bunny, Porky Pig, Wile E. Coyote, Foghorn Leghorn Memorabilia. There was little merchandising when they first came out. The licensing boom happened in the 80s.

In the 90s it grew to ridiculous amounts. Nickolodeon Consumer Products makes a very good portion of MTV's income.

Besides my current job, I had friends who's fathers worked at Hanna Barbara and Warner Bros. Cartoons as my background information.

In the past decade I made friends with the director of The Howdy Doody show and she recounts similar tales.

I agree there is more merchandising today - but you know, if someone had been smart enough back in the day, there would have been a lot more then, also. Nevertheless, Superman and Bugs Bunny lunch boxes and such have been around for ever.

I'm sure there are some creators who did it "for the love of animation" - but I'd wager most were out to make a buck, like most people and businesses are.

Because something is modern or has merchandising attached to it does not make it bad. Some people may dislike the ubiquitous Dora, but the show itself is pretty positive fare. As are Blue's Clues, Thomas, Hi-5 and several other pre-school shows.

[Charlatan]

Direct merchandising of children's cartoons was made illegal in the US in the 60s and was not deregulated until the 80s when Reagan made it possible again.

The breaking point in the 60 was a show called "The Hot Wheels" Hour (or something like that). It was deemed that children would have difficulty telling the difference between narrative and ads. The Reagan administration struck this down.

The first truly merchandised series aimed at kids was Strawberry Shortcake.

As someone who works in the industry, children's programming is not made today where merchandising opportunities are not part of the larger picture. This is not to say that ALL are merchandised, few make the cut, just that all are concieved with merchandising in mind.

Interestingly, my broadcasters recognize that the shows they license (ie commission or acquire) for broadcast are essentially ads for merch. As a result, some broadcasters have cut deals where a, they don't pay for the broadcast license and/or b, get a piece of the merch action.

This is not to say that these shows are neccessarily bad because of merch. It just means that they are more pervasive in our culture than say, Scooby-Doo or Falcon and Dyno-mutt ever would have been in their prime. It means that the nature of children's programming changed.


As for why kids like the classics so much... Nearly all of the classic cartoons were made for adults rather than kids. They were not interested in teaching a lesson (purposfully at least), they never talked down to their audience and they reenacted some of the classic myths and achetypes of all time...

They kept it simple.

The majority of animation today is more along the lines of drama and structured narrative. They are increasingly complex and/or they have an educational purpose.

[Pip]

Tom & Jerry.

When I was a kid we only had two TV stations. Public. Once a week they showed a Tom & Jerry cartoon. Sometimes they'd show Czech or Polish cartoons as well. 3 p.m. on Christmas Eve they showed a Christmas themed Disney potpourri. They still do. Roughly 40% of the population watch this exact same potpourri every Christmas Eve because it's TRADITION!!!!1!ONE!

Tom & Jerry holds a very special place in the hearts of Swedes over the age of 25. The movie club at my old college always shows a Tom & Jerry episode before the main feature. They say the ticket price is actually for the cartoon and the movie gets thrown in as a bonus.

I don't know, there's this sense of craftsmanship in the good old cartoons.

[doodlebird]

Originally Posted by Pip

I don't know, there's this sense of craftsmanship in the good old cartoons.

right on, pip.
the old cartoons were drawn by hand
and hand painted.
there's love in there.
they are, whether the kids know it or not, organic
in a way that today's computer generated drivel is not.

you can see some of this in the simpsons today.
line width and shading that varies nearly imperceptably.
it's just more visually appealling without being all Dr. Katz-like.

also the character design was great.
chuck jones at warner bros.
the nine old men at disney.
these men are legends in their field for a reason.

i don't mean to say new is bad because it's computer generated.
there are exceptions in today's work,
but i only see it in theatrical releases
where there is still an emphasis on a quality story.
i don't see too much in the TV work.
pixar's work will stand up to the test of time,
but i doubt today's kids will show their kids yu-gi-o or dora reruns.

too much of what i see is ripped from the pages of manga,
where only the finest stuff has much artistic merit.

kids aren't stupid,
and i think today's too many of today's kids shows are.
whoever said that the oldies are good
because they didn't talk down to kids is on to something.

that's my two and a half cents.

all that being said.
i fuckin looooved the transformers when i was a runt.
...and talk about one big long commercial!
does anyone else remember the wait for dinobots ?!
it seemed like forever from the time they were on the show
until they were available in stores.
(i think we're talking something in the neighborhood of '83 to '85 here)

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by rockogre

Rocky and Bullwinkle! I forgot about them, along with Fractured Fairy Tales and Mr Peabody and Sherman. They are still funny today. They had a lot of in jokes and cultural references for the adults, and a lot of silliness for the kids.

When I was in the Navy, (Yes, I know, that gets old, but then I AM old), every day after work you had to hurry down to the berthing area on the ship or you wouldn't get a chair to watch Popeye the Sailor. We discovered that a lot of what Popeye said under his breath was for the grownups, and again, the silliness was for the kids. Every day there would be 10 or 12 of us watching Popeye before we did anything else. They just showed the old black and white ones. They are the best and are the ones where almost every one of the characters says things to themselves or talks under their breath.

My granddaughter also has a DVD of the old Popeye cartoons and will watch them over and over. She likes the Jeep, especially when he walks through walls or disappears and reappears.

Oh I LOVED The Rocky Bullwinkle show! Fractured Fairy Tales was priceless. That and Beany and Cecil were fantastic shows with topical jokes to get the parents giggling, as did George of the Jungle.
There was 'some' merchandising when I was a kid-Welch's grape jelly came in 'limited series' collector glasses and until my parents moved out of their house 6 years ago, still had some of the Flintstone ones.

[Grasshopper Green]

I don't know what it is that is the attraction, but my son loves oldies too. Mostly Tom and Jerry. I don't think he's ever seen the Flintstones, the Jetsons, etc. My son also prefers classic Disney movies to current ones for the most part, and some of the newer ones he won't even watch at all.

[3Z3VH]

On the note of the artistic side of the discussion, I agree, that computers have taken a lot of the "artistic" side of the cartoon out. Not because it is computer animated, nor because of line width, colouring, etc.

The problem is that computers make the animating so easy, that non-artistic folk can make them. Honestly, a 15 year old can make a single frame of a cartoon on a computer nowadays, and from that point, it is just a matter of taking that frame and telling the computer what parts can be animated, and animating them. The computer as a medium has not cheapened the feel of the cartoon, it's the dilution of the artistic pool of people who CAN do it, that makes the true artists tough to find in the sea of people who do it strictly for the marketing.

In the old days, sure, they wanted to make a buck with their cartoon... but the only people capable of making one, were people who REALLY loved doing it. These weren't guys who would drag themselves out of bed, punch a time clock and draw for 8 hours, then go home. These were guys who got up in the morning WANTING to make their cartoons, and would stop only when it was finished, or they were exhausted. If they didn't make money at it, they would have been doing it anyway, just on a much smaller scale, and noone would have ever seen it.

[trickyy]

great points guys
regarding the commercialism, my friend canceled cable because his daughter started asking for toys constantly

new cartoons are basically unwatchable for me, but of course i don't have any nostalgic connection to them. still, they seem substandard for one reason or another. there seem to be too many cartoon shows per quality artist. i don't know how many 24 hour cartoon channels there are (4 or more?) but most of their programming is new. perhaps the older cartoons were less about quantity, so the end product was better.

anyway, i've always liked the old ones (and they were already old when i was young)
some of those episodes were pretty creative
i still think the portable hole is a cool concept

warner bros cartoons had the coolest music...check out Carl Stalling if you haven't

Originally Posted by rockogre

They are the best and are the ones where almost every one of the characters says things to themselves or talks under their breath.

ha ha, i agree, it's funny that no one really communicated in those. they just kept muttering inner dialogue.

[Rodney]

There are reasons why the classic cartoons are so good. The full animation is one thing; you get a flowing look that even computer animation can't match. And the quality of the art was supreme. In those days, a lot of the studios used well-trained artists for the grunt animation work, including many highly skilled refugees from Europe who'd work cheap. The talent pool was amazing.

But here's the main reason: while the cartoon operations were run by hard-assed studio execs who were just interested in a profit, the directors and artists were making those cartoons for themselves. Nobody at the studio paid much attention to what was in the cartoons as long as they came out on time and budget. So the directors and cartoonists -- the Chuck Jones and Bob Clampett types (and oh god, Tex Avery) just went crazy. That freedom of creativity just isn't there in the modern animation studios. You never knew what those guys would do next. And the humor was on several levels; the kids could enjoy the run-chase stuff, but there was also sly humor for the adults.

Chuck Jones did a lot of the most ambitious Warner's cartoons of the '50s because he figured out a dodge to fool his bosses. They had (I think) about six weeks to do each eight-minute cartoon. But Chuck could do a Roadrunner cartoon in four or five. So he'd do a couple of roadrunners in a row and add the extra couple of weeks to some more ambitious project he was developing. On paper, though, they all took six weeks.

[raeanna74]

In case anyone is interested, There is a book 'Bill Peet: An Autobiography' is Written by and about one of the artists that worked for Disney in the early years. It gives you a fun look inside the industry. The author does many of his own illustrations and his charactures of Walt and other men who worked together then are fun to see.

Mom read the book with us when we were kids and though it's long it was fun even for elementary age kids to read.

[stevie667]

Tom and Jerry, proper old school stuff there. All the men in my family can sit down and watch T&J for hours on end without issue (has been used on us at a few family gatherings to keep us all quiet).

Cartoons these days have just lost the touch of surreal sillyness. That's what in my opinion always made a good cartoon, stupidity and fun. The only cartoon i've seen over the past few years that even comes close is ozzy and drix, that cracks me up something rotten.


...man i feel old...

[raeanna74]

There is a lot more dialogue in todays cartoons. The older ones have more complex music scores and less dull predictible conversation.

[stevie667]

Thats a good point, its like Mr.Bean, they could do a lot more without words than they could with them, it was half the fun.

[rockogre]

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Frankly, I'd rather he watch some good old violent Bugs Bunny than some of the insipid crap served up today. If absolutely nothing else...Bugs Bunny (and friends) is a pretty good introduction to classical music.

Man, I gotta agree. It was fun as I got older to realize that much of that music was classical. Whole cartoons were built around the music. The "Barber of Seville" with Bugs and Elmer Fudd still cracks me up.

And this one with info from Wikipedial. What's Opera, Doc? is a short animated cartoon directed by Chuck Jones in which Elmer Fudd chases Bugs Bunny through a six-minute operatic parody of Wagner's operas, particularly Der Ring des Nibelungen (The Ring of the Nibelung). While sometimes characterized as a condensed version of Wagner's Ring, it actually makes only loose borrowings from that cycle, woven around the standard Bugs-Elmer conflict. It was first released theatrically on July 6, 1957. Mel Blanc and Arthur Q. Bryan do the voices, including the singing. The short is also sometimes referred to as Kill the Wabbit after the line sung by Fudd to the tune of the Ride of the Valkyries. In fact, this cartoon marks one of the few times that Fudd actually succeeds in beating Bugs Bunny.

This was probably my first introduction to Opera. Man, "The Ride of the Valkyries" for kids on Saturday morning. Who said we got no culture from television? It prompted me when I was older to listen to the actual music.

It's also interesting that many of the characters are cultural icons that still show up from time to time and trancend time and generations, including their catch phrases. "What's up Doc?'. "Beep Beep". And my personal favorite, "My bisquits are a burning!", (Yosemite Sam for you younger folks).

And who remembers Duck Dodgers of the 25th centruy? Hmmmmm? And his nemesis Marvin the Martain? (SP?) Classic warfare!

Thanks reanna for bringing up such a fun to remember thread!

[Rodney]

This brings up a memory I have. About 15 years ago I was on a flight out of San Francisco to Narita (Tokyo), where I'd transfer to Bangkok. Others on the plane were going on to Hong Kong and India. So the plane was a regular United Nations: Indians, Nepalese, Chinese, Thai, American and European travelers, and even a Japanese baseball team.

So about an hour into the flight they start the in-flight movie -- and the Warner Brother's shield appears on screen with that brassy Looney Tunes theme behind it. And suddenly a collective "aahhhh" of anticipation filled the plane. Then Bugs Bunny's face appeared over the title, and everybody went mad! People were laughing and cheering and bouncing up and down. The elderly Indian woman across the aisle cried out "Boogs Bunny! Boogs Bunny! Boogs Bunny!"

Those classic cartoons aren't just timeless -- they transcend all cultures. _Everybody_ knows Bugs, and everybody's glad to see him.

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by highthief

I agree there is more merchandising today - but you know, if someone had been smart enough back in the day, there would have been a lot more then, also. Nevertheless, Superman and Bugs Bunny lunch boxes and such have been around for ever.

I'm sure there are some creators who did it "for the love of animation" - but I'd wager most were out to make a buck, like most people and businesses are.

Because something is modern or has merchandising attached to it does not make it bad. Some people may dislike the ubiquitous Dora, but the show itself is pretty positive fare. As are Blue's Clues, Thomas, Hi-5 and several other pre-school shows.

My implication isn´t that it didn´t exist. It was that it is minimal, I recall my lunchboxes and loved each and everyone of them, my favorite was the Adams Family cartoon one. Licensing avenues back there seemed to be mostly tshirts, cereal box toys, lunchboxes. The Warner Store was interesting to me because they pushed licensing avenues wide, as did the Disney Store, but look where they are now. WB stores are gone, DS stores were sold to Children´s Place to operate.

Nickolodeon shows are all about research. I got to work on Blues Clues in the early years, first 3 years on site. This particular show was tested and tested in front of kids.

I used to see reports of projections of profits on merchandising before the show even hits air on products yet to be made. It´s staggering numbers.

[captobvious]

Tom and Jerry was definitely my favorite cartoon growing up. I think what really appeals to me about old cartoons is how they stretched imagination. Animation allows us to do pretty much anything we want, and I think the old cartoons really took advantage of this because there was no previous example to follow. Much like some people say Hollywood is running out of ideas, I think the same could be said about 2D animation now. Is there anything we can still do with 2D animation that hasn't already been done?

This is where Pixar became a pioneer in the field of animation by applying the tried and true principles and techniques of 2D animation to 3D animation. I think there's still a lot of exceptional work being done in feature films now, although the area is starting to get a little bloated. Some studios are just trying to get as many movies out as possible each year, because kids seem to enjoy them regardless of how "good" they are. So I would say that animation hasn't gotten worse, but there's just so much more of it today that you have to wade through some bad stuff to find the good stuff.