slimpi66y

Holy Big Cow, I was on the seven floor of the officer tower across street, it was like a hollywood movie

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/

The cop was about five feet from the guy, the guy took a step back, the cop shot him with a MP5 looking gun, one single shot to the head, the guy drops, In broad daylight, downtown core, the busiest intersection in Canada

Destrox

Bravo, thats what we need more of. Police taking force and removing the threats. Not pussy footing around political shit. (No offense in the word used, its a phrase.)

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slimpi66y

I am gonna need some serious therapy, it wasn't a sniper, not even far away, the cop was like five feet away, the dude was waving his gun, he pointed it at the cop and the cop fired first

Destrox

I have never seen anyone ever being shot in real life (killed or not), so I cant put my self in your situation. I can only bet it would be emotionally draining and frightening. But you knew to some degree that was going to happen, and you still watched. So are you putting blame onto the cops or are you just saying in general? Trying to get a feel of your postion and the thread you created.

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slimpi66y

no I didn't expected it to happen, this is Toronto man, where the police ride on bicycles and give out parking tickets, no one expected the cop to open fire

Lebell

I would suggest better phrasing in the title.

It seems like the cop saved someone's life as opposed to "gunning" someone down.

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Carno

Dude pointed a gun at the cop, he deserved to get shot.

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Church

Yeah, I was there. Interesting day, I must say. And, uh, it actually wasn't a sniper, but the cop was fairly far away. Good shot though, smack in the head, then the guy kind of backed up a little, and fell to the ground. Interesting day...

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Chupes

@ the cop!

My dad was a swat sniper and had to shoot someone once. Unfortunately the bastard criminal had his hand over the barrel of a sawed off shotgun when he fired at cops. He blew off his hand and it caused him to jerk, savign him his life. Instead of a .308 round to the medulla he took it through the shoulder.

rainheart

No proper criminal would put him/herself into a stupid situation like that.

I don't think he DESERVED to get shot, people throw around sentences like that too freely imho. But it seems like everybody wants to believe that he simply deserved to have been shot, or shot dead, whichever.

Because when you think about it, we don't really know what his intentions were, and certainly for simply taking a hostage you don't deserve to die. That might be a popular school of thought in America perhaps, but not in Canada.

Really, I think he was only shot because he waved his gun at the police officer. Not because he deserved to get shot or was taking a hostage.

Journeyman

If you wave your gun at a cop, you're sending him a message: I'm going to shoot you dead, and here I am all ready to do it now.

The guy maybe didn't deserve to get shot, but the cop did deserve to fire on him, lest his wife be widowed or his children be orphaned.

roboshark

You don't deserve to die, even if you simply took someone hostage. But if you wave a gun in an armed cop's direction, the cop will choose to shoot you, because he's trying to (a) save his life, (b) end the hostage situation in a way that's healthy for the hostages, not the hostage takers.

I don't condone trigger happy police officers. But I'd hug and kiss the man if he just saved my kid from a freak with a gun.

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shakran

So uh, what's the diff? If you're going to kill a victim without provocation, then you deserve to get killed if killing you will prevent you from killing that victim. I have much more sympathy for someone who shoots a man in self defense than I do for someone who shoots a man to commit a crime.

If a criminal points a gun at you, you have the right to do whatever is necessary to stop him from shooting you. If that means he dies, oh well. Better a dead murderer than a dead innocent.

whocarz

Fuck his intentions. He was holding a sawn off shotgun to a woman's head. He definately deserved to be shot. I have no sympathy for spineless cowards that take innocents hostage. I'm glad he's dead, I'm glad the police negotiator didn't talk him out of doing something rash. Pin a fucking medal on the trigger puller, he deserves it. Oh, and I don't think this has anything to do with what country it happened in.

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analog

He pointed a gun at a cop. If you point a gun at a cop, the cop WILL shoot you. And rightly so. This supercedes all preexisting situations of hostage-taking, etc. He deserved to be shot for pointing a gun at a police officer. All else is inconsequential.

RelaX

Story from link:

Toronto — Toronto Police shot and killed an armed man Wednesday who held a woman hostage outside of Union Station during the morning rush hour. The incident occurred shortly after the man's wife was assaulted at a nearby underground shopping mall.

The hostage, held for about 40 minutes by a man police have identified as S. Anthony Brookes, 45, of Ajax, Ont., was escorted away by police and taken to St. Michael's Hospital.

Police did not indicate whether Mr. Brookes and the hostage knew each other, but witnesses said he appeared to have chosen her at random.

"He just grabbed her... he grabbed the first person he saw," said Oroosh Sheikh, a Toronto-Dominion Bank employee, who was heading to a training session.

"He didn't talk to her (the hostage), he didn't talk to anybody," he said of the shooter.

The hostage's family released a statement Tuesday afternoon thanking police for their efforts. The family said the woman is in "great condition" and would be discharged later in the day.

Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino said an Emergency Task Force member, fearing for the "safety of the woman," shot at the man. Witnesses said there were at least two police snipers.

"The officers did their job," Chief Fantino said. "They eliminated a very serious threat to citizens and themselves. It is a regrettable, unfortunate outcome...but at the end of the day these officers did their job."

At around 8:50 a.m., gunfire was heard and live television pictures showed officers on the move. Some officers were wearing bullet-proof vests and carrying automatic weapons.

The street in front of the station was cordoned off by police tape. Police cars were lined up in front of Union Station, which is fed by Via trains, regional GO Transit service and the Toronto Transit Commission subway. Union is a main transport hub that shuttles commuters to the downtown. When the incident happened, several taxis that looked like they had been left in a hurry were parked near the median of Front Street.

The station serves more than 130,000 GO passengers and 30,000 bus passengers every day. It is also home to the fourth busiest station in the city's transit system, used by 75,000 passengers a day.

Hundreds of passersby, many dressed in business attire as they had been on their way to work, stood in silence around the police tape, looking on.

Chief Fantino told reporters that almost an hour earlier, police were notified that shots had been fired shortly after 8 a.m. in the food court of the TD Centre at 100 Wellington St. West.

In a statement the Toronto Police Service said the 45-year-old woman was on her way to work when her estranged husband approached her.

"He fired shots in her direction but did not hit her," the statement said. "She started to run away but she tripped and fell over. He approached her and started assaulting her."

The victim is being held for observation at St. Michael's Hospital. Her condition is being described as stable. Special Investigation Unit investigators have been unable to interview her due to her injuries.

Chief Fantino said a police officer working in the area confronted a man that matched the description of the suspect in the shooting. The man ran south toward Front Street and then headed west to Union Station where he took the hostage.

Bystander Steven Dunphy said the shooter was a "burly" man, about 6 feet, 3 inches tall, and black, was being chased by police near the station and just arbitrarily grabbed the first person he saw.

The woman, Mr. Dunphy said, was petite. She was described by another witness, Omid Haghighi, 27, as being "pretty calm" throughout the incident. He estimated that she was in her late 20s or early 30s.

"The suspect was armed with a firearm that was pointed several times at the police officer as well as the woman that had been taken hostage," Chief Fantino said. "Efforts to negotiate or elicit a response from the suspect did not work out."

The emergency task force and a hostage negotiator arrived on the scene shortly after. After about 40 minutes of refusing to communicate with police the suspect was shot.

Anna Boublikoba, 21, who was headed to a TD Bank training session, said she saw the incident take place through the window of the car she was travelling in.

"Honestly you just go to work and you never expect this kind of thing to happen to you," she told globeandmail.com. "You see movies about that but when it happens in real life it's pretty, pretty shocking."

"Since we saw it pretty close it's a pretty scary thing to see because you never know what he's going to do...There's a lot of emotions and I feel so bad for the girl [hostage]," Ms. Boublinkoba, who saw the man get shot, said.

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty told reporters Wednesday morning he was relieved the hostage is safe and unharmed.

"Let me take the opportunity as well to thank the police for the job they do every day, day in and day out, on behalf of all of us and our safety."

TTC and GO Transit are still in service. GO buses have resumed running but people are urged to use alternate entrances to Union station besides the main entrance.

Traffic in the area was at a standstill as police diverted vehicles away from the scene.

Ron Peattie, a pipefitter who was heading to BCE Place to work, told globeandmail.com that he heard police yell, "Hit the dirt! Everybody down!" and ended up lying in front of the Royal York hotel with a number of others for nearly an hour.

"An hour later a police sniper showed up and said "Get all of these people out of here'" Mr. Peattie said. "Ten minutes later, or five minutes later, bang."

Mr. Peattie said a man appeared to have a sawed-off shotgun pressed to the neck of his hostage. He alternated between pointing the gun at police and pointing the gun at the hostage.

Bystander Mr. Haghighi said he is now much more afraid in the city he calls home.

"I'm from Jane and Finch [a Toronto area known for its higher crime]. I don't expect to see anything like that over here. I [felt] pretty safe here."

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Drider_it

he used that.. now im impressed.. acutal photo may vary

what was the distance tha the officer took the shot?

this btw is one of my more fav weapons.. although in a virtual game sense.

I'm glad that the lady in question lived.. all to often the person behind the comotion takes a life then his. Here in the USA you get a person over the edge, they do a assisted suicide, by lureing cops into a gun draw just so they will kill them.

Many times in life this happens, about 80% of the time no one knows why they do it.

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Glava

If your dad, being a SWAT sniper, only had to shoot someone ONCE, then he is a very lucky sniper indeed.

whocarz

All else is inconsequential? I have to take issue with that. No doubt this person deserved getting shot. However, I don't think the cop was more important than the poor girl the scumbag grabbed at random. Where does this attitude come from? Why are police officers superior human beings in your eyes? Are you one yourself? Do you come from a family of them? Help me understand why you think it wasn't such a big deal when this bastard was shooting at unarmed civilians and holding a gun to someone's head, but then when he points it at a cop, he needs to die right there. Perhaps I'm assuming things about you that are wrong, but your spartan post leaves much to the imagination.

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Antikarma

Uh, I think you're reading too much into the post. It's like saying the sky is blue and water is wet, if you point a gun at a cop, he'll shoot you. It doesn't matter if the king of the world is in town and birds are flying backwards, the sky will be blue and water will be wet.

Ok, I'm going to get more coffee, thats the most f*cked up analogy I've ever used.

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slimpi66y

The news said it was a police sniper, that was bullS man, it ain't no sniper, I saw it from in my office window, the cop was pretty damn close, probably within the shotgun's range, and it wasn't a sniper rifle, just a submachine gun, set on single shots of course

Bill O'Rights

Speaking as a former police officer, I wish to address some of your commentary.

First; No proper criminal would put him/herself into a stupid situation like that? I'm sorry, but this sounds as if you are taking the criminals side here. What the hell is a "proper" criminal versus an improper criminal?

Second; Yes, he most certainly did deserve to get shot. Derserve to die? Maybe...maybe not. That's another debate. But as someone who has stood on the other side of a badge, I'll tell you this. You take a hostage, threaten that hostage with a gun, then you point your gun at a cop? Yes, you deserve to get shot. Period. No room for discussion there...at all. I'm extremely liberal on an awful lot of issues. Not this one. This bleeding heart crap about "we don't really know what his intentions were"? Bullcrap! He made his intentions crystal clear when he pointed his weapon at the cop. At that precise moment...the instant that he decided to point his gun at the cop, all bets are off. It's finished. He goes down.

Third; "for simply taking a hostage you don't deserve to die." I'm here to tell you now, that there is not a single cell of me that doubts, for one milli-second, that the hostage felt otherwise.

Finally; "he was only shot because he waved his gun at the police officer." What do think he was doing? Waving good morning to the officer? If I were the responding officer to that situation I'd have done the same. No question. And for any cop that hesitates that fraction of a second, to ascertain the perpetrator's real intention...well, we have special ceremonies to honor these brave souls. Complete with parades, speeches and salutes. We called those ceremonies funerals.

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omega2K4

Maybe he wanted to die. Suicide by cop.

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fhqwhgads

Speaking as a police officer who would like to see the day I retire: Amen.

analog

Oh, no doubt at all. I wouldn't begin to weigh the value of human life. This statement goes for all people. People have a right to defend themselves, but the woman didn't have a gun of her own, nor was she of proper training or capacity to disarm the attacker. Now, for us regular citizens, we are put under more scrutiny when we shoot someone just because someone pointed a gun at us. We need to be sure it was a "in danger of our life" situation. Police officers are also scrutinized, but were first properly trained to identify situations in which shooting is a necessity (read: shoot or be shot), and therefore are trained when to act to do what is necessary.

Two things-

1. I didn't say he deserved to die. There's a big difference between saying, "you point a gun at a cop and you WILL be shot" and "you point a gun at a cop and you WILL be killed". Negotiation can many times lead to a non-violent resoluation to circumstances such as this. In all matters, a non-violent resolution is, of course, preferable. In many cases, police sharpshooters can shoot a gun from a person's hand, rendering the gun inoperable or sending it flying, giving police time to aprehend the suspect while disarmed, and without any danger to the police or the suspect. Police have many, many non-violent methods of conflict resolution, and they always try to use them over violent ones, where at all possible. This person had demonstrated complete disregard for human life, shooting at people at random, and was holding a person hostage. If the only clean shot the officer could take when the barrel of that gun was pointed at him was the man's head, then so be it. You have to take the life of the hostage into consideration as well.

2. It WAS a big deal when he was shooting civilians. That's why the officer needed to step-up his response. He knew the man was capable of shooting people, the negotiator had worked for 40 minutes with NO progress. I'm not sure how much more clear I can make it that this lowlife (and yes, you shoot at random people and take a person hostage, you are "lowlife" in my book) drove the police to his own demise. Also, the police are there to protect and to serve. I'd really be interested (and appalled) to read a person's attempt to tell me that police officers aren't supposed to shoot a person to disarm them (and in certain circumstances, if that means killing them to do it, then so be it) if a gun is pointed at them. They are here to protect us. They risk their lives every day so we can live in peace. Any "attitude" I have about them is based in honor, for all that they do for us. Sure, I may hate them for enforcing certain laws I beleive are bullshit, but that doesn't make them less important, or less worthy of recognition for their efforts.

Side note: When brevity is the obvious aim in a persons post, and their point clearly stated (which I believe mine was), calling their addition to the discussion "spartan" can sometimes come off as a chide, leading to responses that are longer than perhaps necessary, if only to ensure clarity. I can type allllllllllllll day.

Antikarma

It's nice to see the cops weigh in on this. We can debate what happened and how it happened all we want, but the cops are the ones that face this or the possibility of this situation every day.

My daughter wants to be a cop too. Not sure if that scares me or makes me proud.

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whoever you are."

Church

I'm Canadian myself and you can bet that I think he deserved what he got. He'd already shot his wife in the food court, ran out, and taken a hostage. What goes around comes around.

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hossified

i think everyone should try and put themselves in the shoes of the hostage. If one person can still say that he should not have been shot...you are lying. Or you really aren't grasping a sawed off shotgun pressed against your head by a crazy guy yelling and screaming nonsense! I live 20 minutes from toronto and was shocked to hear this...afterall I'd expect it from the US.....but not in Canada.....but I say give the cop a medal! Union is busy and had that guy went into the station or started firing randomly, who says people wouldn't get hit! We all know what is right and what is wrong....and walking around downtown with a shot gun, pointing at people and cops....is threatening enough in my books to warrant this guy getting gassed!

..the part that amazes me more....is that the cop had the cohones to shoot this guy while he was armed with a hostage!!!! We're talking a muscle twitch here, was the difference between killing the scumbag...and an innocent 21 year old girl!

Chupes

Ya, not much going on around here lol. Usually the regular SWAT guys would get the action if anything. Lot of close calls though.

rainheart

Well I'm going to answer this anyways even though I know you understand exactly what I mean.

A proper criminal thinks firsts and then acts, regardless of his/her immoral intentions, so that s/he gets the result that is more desirable (like suriving, not getting caught).
If you go crazy with a sawed off shotgun you're not supposed to even have in Toronto in the first place, then you're doing it wrong.
Trying to get what you want with strong arm tactics that put your life at risk where the odds are more than likely you will be apprehended or worse shot, is not a smart thing to do.

I'm not taking the criminals side, just making an observation. I think what he did was reckless.

Well you certainly deserve to be punished for taking a hostage, and yes you give police officers the right to shoot you when you point guns at them.
I didn't know at the time when I made the post that this was the same guy that had fired shots before, but I personally think you only DESERVE to get shot when you've fired shots yourself. Untill that point, if you get shot, it was only because you might have harmed someone. I guess this makes it just a pointless semantics arguement.

But then again nothing is really clear in a situation like that.
Apparently, he pointed his gun at the police officer (the ETF unit I think, I'm not sure) several times. Even he's not clear on his intentions. Maybe he was stupid enough to think that he could intimidate police officers by pointing his gun at them, or maybe he was trying to get himself killed because that's what he wanted. Maybe he wanted to shoot the officer but hesitated over and over again. A man with a hostage and after 40 minutes of negotiations he doesn't even have any demands.

Now I'm not saying that since they didn't know what he wanted, they shouldnt've shot him, but instead, that he didn't DESERVE to get shot.

I'm pretty sure the hostage was too shocked to have wanted something as anger-driven as vengance from the criminal.
What I'm saying is, the act of taking a hostage shouldn't merit you death.

Then we're in agreement about that one
Although once again, I find out after I posted, that this guy waved his gun at the cop several times apparently.

"Toronto Police Chief Julian Fantino said an Emergency Task Force member, fearing for the "safety of the woman," shot at the man."
See, not exactly. That's part of it, but the cop also shot fearing his own safety.

The way I see it:
If someone is going to kill a victim without provocation, then one solution is to kill that someone before they kill the victim, to prevent that someone from killing the victim.

I don't see it in terms of deserving. You might deserve (severe) punishment for taking a hostage and endangering lives but not death.
So to recap what I was saying, he didn't deserve to get shot in return for holding a hostage. Although he certainly did for firing shots before (which I didn't know about at the time).

Just try not to misunderstand me, I'm not sympathizing with the criminal or being disrespectful or ignorant of the great work the police did.

denim

I figure that now the guy is DEAD, the world is a better place. Fuck him.

rmarshall

I read part of the story in the Toronto Star today. The bad guy had a sawed off 22, not a shotgun. He shot at his own wife several times and missed. The gun was probably a piece of shit. Then he proceeded to beat her with the gun, causing her to need several stitches. Then he wanders off and when cornered, takes a hostage, a girl who just happened to be in the wrong place.
He gets shot and killed a half hour or so later.
I'm thinking, his gun wasn't loaded or working at that point, or he would have used it on his wife.
Had the cop known or thought of that, he might not have had to kill the guy.

Lebell

This is called "Monday Morning Quarterbacking".

A man with a gun pointed at you is a life and death situation with no time to ask, "What are your intentions?"

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sailor

Exactly. IMHO, when one introduces a firearm into a situation, he opens himself up to the whole range of consequences. This guy brought a gun into the situation, and then, and here's the kicker--pointed it at the cop. He opened himself to the consequences and got them. I dont know about yall, but if someone pointed a loaded weapon at me with the apparent intent to fire, Id damn sure be trying to pull that trigger first.

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MSD

Anyone who points a gun (which is a deadly weapon) at another person, and who is not doing this in defense of themself or the defense of another person, deserves nothign more than to be shot and killed. Negotiations should only take place when removal of the attacker is not possible, or when removal of the attacker will cause place more people in immediate danger than a negotiation attempt would.

If a person with a weapon can be disarmed without putting anyone else at risk, that should be done. If someone has taken a hostage and killing the hostage-taker would eliminate the danger to the hostage or hostages, then there is no reason or excuse to hesitate to remove the threat.

MooseMan3000

I think that's besides the point, and it detracts from the discussion. The officer was not there when he first fired shots. When the shots were fired is when the officers were called. As far as the officer in question was concerned, that man had a loaded, functional weapon. You don't stop to ask the hostage taker if his weapon works.

I agree that anyone who points a gn at a police officer deserves to get shot. It's a simple fact that the officer is there to protect you, and if you endanger his (or her) life, your life should be fucking endangered as well.

Antikarma

Isn't this all moot? I mean, cops are out there to defend us. They take marginal pay, in a dangerous job, to defend YOUR right to sit here and bitch about them.

This officer defended him or herself, as WELL as an innocent person from on the street in a manner that was decisive. I'm sorry but its all well and good to sit here and deconstuct this, but someone was out there making less than you, DEFENDING you, and many are still bitching.

Go out, have a gun pointed at a fellow officer, with an innocent victim held hostage, and tell me you would not shoot. To the officer that pulled the trigger, all I can do is extend my sympathies for putting up with the jerks that question you, I only hope that in a situation such as you were in, I would be half the person.

I have said before, my daughter wants to be a cop. Its dangerous, but THIS is why I don't want her to be a cop. I know that with the right upbringing she will make the right decisions. But to be questioned for acting in a situation such as this, it's horrible. I don't want my daughter to be a cop because she might be crucified by the same people she wants to protect.

I got a PM from a police officer that read this, and I printed it out for my daughter. She hung it on her wall. For all the cops out there, I want you to know, theres a 7 year old girl out there who worships you. Keep it up, please. You are still heroes to some.

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leaving your room, of which you know each bit;
your house is the last before the infinite,
whoever you are."

Diamond

I am a cop, been in this situation. It's not cool, not a choice we have days to debate over. We got seconds. We got families. I don't know what kind of life the guy has lived, what hardships he has faced. All I know is I will be going home at the end of the shift and so will my partners. I have chosen this profession, I love what I do. We realize not everyone can do it, some days really, really suck but most are ok.

Bottom line, if u got a problem, don't get a gun and shoot at people, don't take hostages or anything else that might be later construed as really stupid. Wave a gun around and you will get you shot. In all the talk about the dead guy, anybody think of the cop that killed him? Bet it might have ruined his day too....

fhqwhgads

This is the reason that I put on my gun and vest and go to work everyday. Thank your daughter for me, and thank you for letting me know how much that meant to her.

Fire

how can you defend the bad guy- either he was terminaly stupid, or dangerous to be around- and by taking a hostage he announced it to the world- in this case, he has no human rights, as he has forfeited them by his actions- in all, i seen no point in mourning for anyone but the victim, and the cop that may be somewhat troubled by the extra paperwork this guy made him do-

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