Opinion on Freedom of Religion via YMCA - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Redjake · 08-19-2004, 12:30 PM

I work at a YMCA "branch." I don't want to get real indepth here, but I work at a place that is an official YMCA "foundation." Anyway, most of you know that YMCA stands for:
<ul>
<li>Young
<li>Men's
<li>Christian
<li>Association
</ul>

The next two weeks a group from a state that is relatively far away from here will be using the campus. The head of the group is someone moderately famous, in the 80s anyway. But today that head of the group told the president of the YMCA organization I work at that 75% of the group of 300 teenagers was Christian, and that the other 25% were either Hindu or Muslim. Interesting!

Until she asked the president to take down the picture of Jesus we have in our dining hall.

The group is paying a fifth of a million dollars to stay for two weeks. This can have a big impact on decisions. The president ordered one of their subordinants to take a bed sheet and cover up the portrait of Jesus. The painting is pretty big, about 4" by 4". So he comes in (the subordinant) and is trying to put the sheet on the frame and picture, and I go and help with a broom because he couldn't do it by himself. We agree that the situation is redicilous. Then I thought about it some more. YM<b>C</b>A. Young Men's <b>Christian</b> Organization. What kind of treachery was this? The group CHOSE to come to this YMCA campus. We didn't make them come. My boss (I work in the kitchen) is furious. They are a very religious person. I am not very religious but seeing a bed sheet on top of the huge portrait of Jesus is infuriating.

So when the guy leaves that I help put the sheet up with, I go and pull it down to where it's hanging by one corner. I don't really care if I get fired for it. Just because the group is paying 200 grand to stay for two weeks doesn't mean that their religion is right and our's is wrong. If I was to go a a Young Men's Hindu Assocation, I wouldn't make them cover up all the cow paintings on the walls! You live with it.

I just couldn't believe the head of the group demanded that we cover up Jesus.

The head of the maintenance department came into the kitchen and we told them the situation. They were furious, and questioned the order. They even said they would quit the job (20+ years at the workplace) if we weren't allowed to take it down.

He said that "some us, just SOME of us" actually believe in the foundations of the YMCA, and we shouldn't have to cover it up if someone doesn't like it. Especially if they chose this campus out of the rest of resorts.

So later the president comes in, tears the sheet off Jesus all the way, and tells my boss that "we're gonna leave Jesus up, but they can express their religion publicly too if they want."

Then the president later apologized and said their decision was irrational and embarassing. I agreed. It shows good leadership that they could take back the order and find a solution to the problem though. They told the leader of the group that Jesus was going to have to stay up or else all of their workers were gonna quit. They agreed to leave Jesus up, but to publicly display their religion as well.

Anyone have any comments on this? What do you think should have been done? Was the leader of the group's order to cover up a painting of Jesus in the dining hall appropriate? Should it have been covered? Should the group be allowed to express their religion publicly at a YMCA?

Go for it!

maleficent · 08-19-2004, 12:40 PM

I absolutely see your point... and agree with it...

However, devil's advocate hat going on....

however, the question I have is did they paid for the facility, which gives them exclusive use of the dining room? (basically will they be in their by themselves. If they had gone to a hotel or a conference center, they'd be within their rights to ask to have a painting that they didn't feel was appropriate covered up.

Did they sign a contract for use of the facility, and is there anything in the contract about what can or can't be on the walls?

Cynthetiq · 08-19-2004, 12:45 PM

I went to a Boys catholic school... jews, muslims all went... they understood going in that,"when in rome..." and had to attend religion classes and masses.

IMHO if they just put a tasteful cloth over it would suffice, similar to what jews do covering mirrors after a death.

That said, they should have also realized WHO they were contracting with.... and of course since it's about $$$ well the bean counters just may win.

sailor · 08-19-2004, 12:51 PM

I think the conclusion that was come to is a good one. They should have realized where they were staying, and to ask you to remove the overtly Christian images is ridiculous. Looks like cooler heads prevailed and a good solution was come to.

theusername · 08-19-2004, 12:52 PM

That is completely ridiculous. People today are so oversensitive and ignorant at the same time. It's like those morons that complain about Santa Clause or Christmasy stuff all over the place. Yea and if it means anything I'm Jewish too.

However i dont see the harm in covering up Jesus with some kind of "shield" of some sort, even tho i think the whole arguments pretty trivial and they should just let Jesus hang out there.

denim · 08-19-2004, 12:58 PM

I'm mildly surprised your YMCA accepted their reservation.

MSD · 08-19-2004, 01:09 PM

The YMCA is a private organization. If someone doesn't like the fact that they're affiliated with Christianity, they shouldn't join. Asking to cover up the painting is like telling you to take down a crucifix (or Star of David, or or statue of a Hindu God) in your guest room because the person staying there is an atheist. Mixing religion and government is one thing, but this is just being overly sensetive (and whiny.)

Redjake · 08-20-2004, 12:25 PM

oh boy. I found out today that the head of the group taught the kids (from Harlem) during breakfast a very interesting lesson.

"You don't need white people. It's perfectly OK to hate white people. We don't need them. Just act as if they are your business partner and be on your merry way. It's ok to hate them because of what their ancestors did to us in the 1800s and early 1900s. Act as if they aren't there and be polite, but do not like them. Never forget what they done."

Thaaaaaaaaaat's nice.

KellyC · 08-20-2004, 12:42 PM

I am speechless about the stupidity that guy spewed from his mouth, he needs some senses smacked into him.

maleficent · 08-20-2004, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redjake

"You don't need white people. It's perfectly OK to hate white people. We don't need them. Just act as if they are your business partner and be on your merry way. It's ok to hate them because of what their ancestors did to us in the 1800s and early 1900s. Act as if they aren't there and be polite, but do not like them. Never forget what they done."

What's this guy a friend of Louis Farrakahn?

:eyeroll:

Seems awfully hypocritical of them to be renting space from the Y....

DelayedReaction · 08-20-2004, 01:09 PM

To go back to the original topic, I think it's rather ludicrous that people should get offended over a request like that. Yes you're the YMCA, but they certainly shouldn't be vilified for requesting something. Rather than make a big deal of it it may have been easier to simply say "While we value your request, we can't do that. We're sorry." Money is no reason to give up values, and I think the President should have considered things a bit more before covering up the image of Christ, but I don't think the situation doesn't deserve the level of anger I'm experiencing here.

As for the words spoken at breakfast, at least we know that ignorance isn't colorblind.

tecoyah · 08-20-2004, 03:05 PM

Personally....I wont enter a YMCA because of the outdated, and insensitive beliefs prevelent in the organization. I would ask you to think about the likelyhood of your YMCA accepting a reservation from a Gay group, regardless of the money offered. In this day and age, it is becoming somewhat of a turnoff to many, to see bigotry in any form. Perhaps the dislike of Caucasians by the group in question, should be put into context along side the intolerence of YMCA leadership.

Just my take.

IShotAndyWarhol · 08-20-2004, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

Personally....I wont enter a YMCA because of the outdated, and insensitive beliefs prevelent in the organization. I would ask you to think about the likelyhood of your YMCA accepting a reservation from a Gay group, regardless of the money offered. In this day and age, it is becoming somewhat of a turnoff to many, to see bigotry in any form. Perhaps the dislike of Caucasians by the group in question, should be put into context along side the intolerence of YMCA leadership.

Just my take.

Agreed. I'm jewish, and I went to a YMCA summer camp for three years, and although I had fun there doing the activities, and I had friends there, I felt like christianity was being totally shoved down my throat, by the counselors and in the "chapel" that everyone had to attend in the morning. It was a bit ridiculous.

Glava · 08-20-2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redjake

oh boy. I found out today that the head of the group taught the kids (from Harlem) during breakfast a very interesting lesson.

"You don't need white people. It's perfectly OK to hate white people. We don't need them. Just act as if they are your business partner and be on your merry way. It's ok to hate them because of what their ancestors did to us in the 1800s and early 1900s. Act as if they aren't there and be polite, but do not like them. Never forget what they done."

Thaaaaaaaaaat's nice.

I'm sure my Eastern European peasant ancestors were busy torturing black people in Czarist Russia 100 years ago...

clavus · 08-20-2004, 05:04 PM

Why is a hate group at the YMCA?

C is for "Christian" not "coward." I'm glad the painting stayed up.

analog · 08-20-2004, 05:21 PM

...but you went to a Christian school. You either bear with the curriculum and it's myriad of requirements or you find a school that doesn't preach what you don't want to hear,

I don't get hungry for pizza, go to a McDonald's, and then get all pissy because they try selling me a burger.

ObieX · 08-20-2004, 05:21 PM

Heh, its like going to canada and demanding they hide all the canadian flags while you're there because you're American. I went to a catholic grammar school and high school and not everyone there was catholic. If you dont like seeing jesus plastered everywhere go to public school, picking a catholic school isn't the smartest of choices.

Does the president know the hate this guy is preaching?

08-19-2004, 12:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	Opinion on Freedom of Religion via YMCA I work at a YMCA "branch." I don't want to get real indepth here, but I work at a place that is an official YMCA "foundation." Anyway, most of you know that YMCA stands for: <ul> <li>Young <li>Men's <li>Christian <li>Association </ul> The next two weeks a group from a state that is relatively far away from here will be using the campus. The head of the group is someone moderately famous, in the 80s anyway. But today that head of the group told the president of the YMCA organization I work at that 75% of the group of 300 teenagers was Christian, and that the other 25% were either Hindu or Muslim. Interesting! Until she asked the president to take down the picture of Jesus we have in our dining hall. The group is paying a fifth of a million dollars to stay for two weeks. This can have a big impact on decisions. The president ordered one of their subordinants to take a bed sheet and cover up the portrait of Jesus. The painting is pretty big, about 4" by 4". So he comes in (the subordinant) and is trying to put the sheet on the frame and picture, and I go and help with a broom because he couldn't do it by himself. We agree that the situation is redicilous. Then I thought about it some more. YM<b>C</b>A. Young Men's <b>Christian</b> Organization. What kind of treachery was this? The group CHOSE to come to this YMCA campus. We didn't make them come. My boss (I work in the kitchen) is furious. They are a very religious person. I am not very religious but seeing a bed sheet on top of the huge portrait of Jesus is infuriating. So when the guy leaves that I help put the sheet up with, I go and pull it down to where it's hanging by one corner. I don't really care if I get fired for it. Just because the group is paying 200 grand to stay for two weeks doesn't mean that their religion is right and our's is wrong. If I was to go a a Young Men's Hindu Assocation, I wouldn't make them cover up all the cow paintings on the walls! You live with it. I just couldn't believe the head of the group demanded that we cover up Jesus. The head of the maintenance department came into the kitchen and we told them the situation. They were furious, and questioned the order. They even said they would quit the job (20+ years at the workplace) if we weren't allowed to take it down. He said that "some us, just SOME of us" actually believe in the foundations of the YMCA, and we shouldn't have to cover it up if someone doesn't like it. Especially if they chose this campus out of the rest of resorts. So later the president comes in, tears the sheet off Jesus all the way, and tells my boss that "we're gonna leave Jesus up, but they can express their religion publicly too if they want." Then the president later apologized and said their decision was irrational and embarassing. I agreed. It shows good leadership that they could take back the order and find a solution to the problem though. They told the leader of the group that Jesus was going to have to stay up or else all of their workers were gonna quit. They agreed to leave Jesus up, but to publicly display their religion as well. Anyone have any comments on this? What do you think should have been done? Was the leader of the group's order to cover up a painting of Jesus in the dining hall appropriate? Should it have been covered? Should the group be allowed to express their religion publicly at a YMCA? Go for it! __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

08-19-2004, 12:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I absolutely see your point... and agree with it... However, devil's advocate hat going on.... however, the question I have is did they paid for the facility, which gives them exclusive use of the dining room? (basically will they be in their by themselves. If they had gone to a hotel or a conference center, they'd be within their rights to ask to have a painting that they didn't feel was appropriate covered up. Did they sign a contract for use of the facility, and is there anything in the contract about what can or can't be on the walls? __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-19-2004, 12:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I went to a Boys catholic school... jews, muslims all went... they understood going in that,"when in rome..." and had to attend religion classes and masses. IMHO if they just put a tasteful cloth over it would suffice, similar to what jews do covering mirrors after a death. That said, they should have also realized WHO they were contracting with.... and of course since it's about $$$ well the bean counters just may win. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

08-19-2004, 12:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	I think the conclusion that was come to is a good one. They should have realized where they were staying, and to ask you to remove the overtly Christian images is ridiculous. Looks like cooler heads prevailed and a good solution was come to. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato

08-19-2004, 12:52 PM	#5 (permalink)
theusername Insane	That is completely ridiculous. People today are so oversensitive and ignorant at the same time. It's like those morons that complain about Santa Clause or Christmasy stuff all over the place. Yea and if it means anything I'm Jewish too. However i dont see the harm in covering up Jesus with some kind of "shield" of some sort, even tho i think the whole arguments pretty trivial and they should just let Jesus hang out there. __________________ ?

08-19-2004, 12:58 PM	#6 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	I'm mildly surprised your YMCA accepted their reservation.

08-19-2004, 01:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The YMCA is a private organization. If someone doesn't like the fact that they're affiliated with Christianity, they shouldn't join. Asking to cover up the painting is like telling you to take down a crucifix (or Star of David, or or statue of a Hindu God) in your guest room because the person staying there is an atheist. Mixing religion and government is one thing, but this is just being overly sensetive (and whiny.)

08-20-2004, 12:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	oh boy. I found out today that the head of the group taught the kids (from Harlem) during breakfast a very interesting lesson. "You don't need white people. It's perfectly OK to hate white people. We don't need them. Just act as if they are your business partner and be on your merry way. It's ok to hate them because of what their ancestors did to us in the 1800s and early 1900s. Act as if they aren't there and be polite, but do not like them. Never forget what they done." Thaaaaaaaaaat's nice. __________________ Off the record, on the q.t., and very hush-hush.

08-20-2004, 12:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	I am speechless about the stupidity that guy spewed from his mouth, he needs some senses smacked into him. __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

08-20-2004, 01:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	To go back to the original topic, I think it's rather ludicrous that people should get offended over a request like that. Yes you're the YMCA, but they certainly shouldn't be vilified for requesting something. Rather than make a big deal of it it may have been easier to simply say "While we value your request, we can't do that. We're sorry." Money is no reason to give up values, and I think the President should have considered things a bit more before covering up the image of Christ, but I don't think the situation doesn't deserve the level of anger I'm experiencing here. As for the words spoken at breakfast, at least we know that ignorance isn't colorblind. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

08-20-2004, 03:05 PM	#12 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Personally....I wont enter a YMCA because of the outdated, and insensitive beliefs prevelent in the organization. I would ask you to think about the likelyhood of your YMCA accepting a reservation from a Gay group, regardless of the money offered. In this day and age, it is becoming somewhat of a turnoff to many, to see bigotry in any form. Perhaps the dislike of Caucasians by the group in question, should be put into context along side the intolerence of YMCA leadership. Just my take. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

08-20-2004, 05:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Why is a hate group at the YMCA? C is for "Christian" not "coward." I'm glad the painting stayed up. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

08-20-2004, 05:21 PM	#16 (permalink)
analog Banned	...but you went to a Christian school. You either bear with the curriculum and it's myriad of requirements or you find a school that doesn't preach what you don't want to hear, I don't get hungry for pizza, go to a McDonald's, and then get all pissy because they try selling me a burger.

08-20-2004, 05:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	Heh, its like going to canada and demanding they hide all the canadian flags while you're there because you're American. I went to a catholic grammar school and high school and not everyone there was catholic. If you dont like seeing jesus plastered everywhere go to public school, picking a catholic school isn't the smartest of choices. Does the president know the hate this guy is preaching? __________________ We Must Dissent.