guide dog discriminated against

[pocon1]

OK, I read the article and I think that this is ridiculous. I understand that the class is an immersion course, but the dog is not in the course, and it has a limited amount of ability to learn new commands. This is obeying rules and not the spirit of the rules. I mean, cut the guy some slack.

TORONTO - A blind Quebec student may sue a Canadian university that denied him entry to English classes because his guide dog responds only to French commands.

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Yvan Tessier was turned away from an English immersion course at the University of New Brunswick because he would be forced to give his dog, Pavot, instructions in French.

Students in the course are expected to communicate only in English, at all times, during the intensive five-week course. That includes talking to the dog.

“I feel a little bit frustrated and sad about the situation,” Tessier said from Fredericton, New Brunswick Wednesday.

“They don’t have the openness of spirit to understand that it’s better for me and my mobility to operate with my guide dog. It’s only 17 commands in French, it won’t compromise the English program.”

Tessier said he would file a complaint with the human rights commission if the university stuck to its decision.

The graduate student has been guided by the black Labrador retriever for the past two years. Pavot was trained by the Quebec-based Mira Foundation specifically for French speaking clients.

“We were astonished by this,” said Pierre Noiseux, a spokesman at the foundation which placed Pavot with Tessier.

“The dog doesn’t speak French or English. He doesn’t know how to spell ’en avant.’ He doesn’t know it’s French. He just knows that ’en avant’ means forward.”

Noiseux said the university’s decision was tantamount to discrimination, given that it had accepted Tessier and only raised objections once he inquired about services for blind students.

The university in the eastern Canadian town of Fredericton, New Brunswick, said it turned Tessier away because it did not have enough time to prepare for his special needs. It said he can join the program once Pavot learns English commands.

“In the past, the service has been provided that we do teach their guide dogs commands in English, so the dog learns English as well,” a university spokeswoman told CBC Television.

Tessier said it would take too long to teach Pavot English commands. The Mira Foundation said it was also dangerous to teach the dog new commands just as Tessier arrives in unfamiliar surroundings.

“He’s in a new city, he needs a dog that will be really alert,” Noiseux said. “Sure we could take the dog, bring him back and recode. But why would I do that? The guy is French.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5395372/?GT1=4244

[Karby]

that's just mean spirited and petty.
i mean, c'mon! the dog's not the one trying to learn.
sometimes people can be soo....'ugh'.

[maleficent]

Merde! Est-ce que le chien pas le particpate dans la classe, quelle différence il fait ?

--------
That's it for my french, the dog knows more than I do...

Service dogs are allowed where regular dogs are not. The dog is not a student in the class, he does not participate in the class, he's there to assist the student in the class.

Does Canada have a law similar to the ADA?

[Journeyman]

In spite of the "compromising" that giving french commands during english immersion is taking place, I would think that with the guy/dog being in a new city, him being immersed in english would actually help his situation. The dog now gets a different language of gobbledeegook to ignore, making it that much easier to respond to the commands in french (as in, it's now easier for the dog to differentiate between commands from the owner and whatever else the owner is saying).

[raeanna74]

I really hope the university rethinks it's response to this man. Why make such a big deal out of it? I mean - if one of their other students accidentally slips and talks in their sleep do they fail the course? It happens. There are times when they need to be a little more flexible. Teaching is all about flexibility. If they haven't learned that they're in trouble.

I hope this man doesn't have to go through a fight just to take the course. It could take a long time to teach the dog to consistantly respond to the new commands. Why postpone his education for that? It's hard enough to get through schoool with anything holding you back, such as blindness. Gimme a break. The school is being ridiculous.

[the_marq]

The blind guy had plenty of time to prepare his dog to understand the basic commands in english. He just chose to be stuborn and force the issue.

The school should stick to their policy.

[SinisterMotives]

This is absurd. Such hard-assed adherence to the letter of the rule is unbecoming of a "liberal" institution.

[DEI37]

Yeah, I read that this morning, I think. Absolutely stupid. On the schools' part. To retrain the dog is absurd. The guy will still learn what he needs to learn, AND be able to get around, because the dog will do what needs to be done. Nobody will reply to the guy in French, probably because (one) they don't know French, or (two), they'll know that he's talking to the dog!

[Xell101]

That is really stupid, they're commands to a dog, not French discussions that screw with the environment and mess with the language emmersion.

[canuckguy]

the school caved and the guy and his dog can attend classes. heard on the news.

[shakran]

Originally posted by the_marq
The blind guy had plenty of time to prepare his dog to understand the basic commands in english. He just chose to be stuborn and force the issue.

The school should stick to their policy.

What a load of crap! The dog had to be specially trained in a VERY long intensive program to get it to understand what it was to do when it heard specific commands. Are YOU willing to pay to have it retrained, assuming you can find a guide-dog trainer that's enough of a flaming moron to think it's a good idea?

[the_marq]

Originally posted by shakran
What a load of crap! The dog had to be specially trained in a VERY long intensive program to get it to understand what it was to do when it heard specific commands. Are YOU willing to pay to have it retrained, assuming you can find a guide-dog trainer that's enough of a flaming moron to think it's a good idea?

I'm not a dog trainer, maybe you are and that's fine.

From what I understand, dogs don't speak english or french or whatever, it's all about the intonnation in the voice. From what I had been reading in the Canadian press most traininers that they have spoken to have said the dog could learn the 5 or 6 basic commands in 2-3 weeks of training.

Mr Tessier was given plenty of time to teach his dog he simply chose not to.

[oberon04]

Originally posted by the_marq
I'm not a dog trainer, maybe you are and that's fine.

From what I understand, dogs don't speak english or french or whatever, it's all about the intonnation in the voice. From what I had been reading in the Canadian press most traininers that they have spoken to have said the dog could learn the 5 or 6 basic commands in 2-3 weeks of training.

Mr Tessier was given plenty of time to teach his dog he simply chose not to.

I'm not a dog trainer either, but I know a guide dog needs to know alot more then 6 commands. I've heard it takes a year or so to train a guide dog. He not only has to know commands, but has to be the "eyes" for the owner.

[shakran]

Originally posted by the_marq
I'm not a dog trainer, maybe you are and that's fine.

From what I understand, dogs don't speak english or french or whatever, it's all about the intonnation in the voice. From what I had been reading in the Canadian press most traininers that they have spoken to have said the dog could learn the 5 or 6 basic commands in 2-3 weeks of training.

Mr Tessier was given plenty of time to teach his dog he simply chose not to.

well you're misinformed. Dogs do understand words. Some can understand 200+ words, and they don't just understand it based on the intonation either. Mr. Tessier was asked to confuse his dog by giving it two words for each command. That's absurd.

By the way, you just shot yourself in the foot with your argument. After all, if dogs only understood commands based on intonation, then Mr. Tessier didn't have to retrain his dog at all - he could just speak the english word with the same intonation as the french word and the dog wouldn't know any different.

[DelayedReaction]

I hope the school apologizes and buys the dog a new leash or something, because that's fucking stupid. It's a blind guy's dog, and they're gonna get pissy because he'd speak in French every now and then?

Here, I'll violet your immersion rule and give you some sign language...

[amonkie]

I was in the process of applying for a hearing dog for myself, and it was a 1 and a half to 2 year process before they would even have a dog trained enough to send to me, and then another 6 months of the trainer, the dog and myself before they would consider his training complete. The dog needs to be at his most alert for the safety of his owner, and confusing him on directions that need to be made in a split second is not helping.

[the_marq]

While I appreciate your argments my POV remains the same.

The school has traditions and rules and we should never be too quick to "make exceptions" to accommodate one person.

I have no desire to "stick it to the handicapped." However I do feel there needs to be a point where the individual and the organization reach a compromise rather than just caving in to the demands of the handicapped to avoid contraversy.

[pocon1]

This is a situation that deserves the use of common sense, not ideology and tradition. Common sense dictates that you find a pragmatic solution to the problem. The Problem? The dog does not understand english commands. What do we do about it? Ask an instructor. After they explain that it takes more than a year and thousands of dollars and hours of training, then common sense would dictate that the blind person attends the program.
Common sense works in many areas. If you have an intermural football program, obviously the blindcould not play. Therefore no changes would be made. In this instance, the proper application of common sense dictates that the dog does not get retrained, and continues to understand french commands.

[the_marq]

I am all for common sense pocon1, I agree with your statment.

The trouble is; common sense is VERY subjective. What's common sense to you and me might be outrageous to someone else. Consider professional golf, you have to be able to walk to play on the PGA right? No so anymore, a golfer sued the PGA last year and got the right to play with a cart.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to screw over the handicapped, my issue is that most of the time as soon as a group (handicapped, minority etc..) cries "unfair!" those outside of the group fall all over themselves to accommodate without considering what they are doing. Once exceptions start being made it's a very slipperly slope.

[DelayedReaction]

You would prefer we discriminate against them for something they have no control over? This fix requires no money, no loss of face, and even allows the school to demonstrate an even greater "diversity" in the student body. Instead they're now considered assholes because some blind dude's dog doesn't understand english. That doesn't make much sense to me.

You're right; common sense is subjective. So why use it as an argument when it can just as easily be used against you?

[Charlatan]

The University reversed its decision the next day after all the press they recieved...

[ChrisJericho]

It's about time Canada joined the rest of the world and started speaking English predominantly.

[bernadette]

Originally posted by brian1975
the school caved and the guy and his dog can attend classes. heard on the news.

well, that is good to hear.



for crying out loud. teaching a dog in one language all the basic commands & obedience is enough of chore to get a well behaved dog, let alone all the additional commands a seeing eye dog would need.

expecting a DOG to be BI-LINGUAL is ludicrous.

asking a blind student with an already properly trained guide dog to teach his assistant dog a new language or to just forget his schooling cuz he doesn't have the means nor time to teach his dog a 2nd language in beyond ridiculous.

[Lebell]

*files in "The Death of Common Sense" file*

[cookkee]

did u know that here in australia blind people are forbidden to bungee jump.......... apparently it scares the shit out of the labradoors

[shakran]

Originally posted by the_marq
I am all for common sense pocon1, I agree with your statment.

The trouble is; common sense is VERY subjective. What's common sense to you and me might be outrageous to someone else. Consider professional golf, you have to be able to walk to play on the PGA right? No so anymore, a golfer sued the PGA last year and got the right to play with a cart.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to screw over the handicapped, my issue is that most of the time as soon as a group (handicapped, minority etc..) cries "unfair!" those outside of the group fall all over themselves to accommodate without considering what they are doing. Once exceptions start being made it's a very slipperly slope.

I agree with you regarding the PGA. If you can't fulfill the requirements of the program due to your disability, then that's unfortunate but sometimes life is unfortunate. However, I highly doubt that any of the other students are required to teach their pets english, so why should the handicapped have to jump through special hoops just to attend? The purpose of the program was to teach the MAN how to speak english. No one truly cared if the DOG could understand it - they were just being complete horse's asses.

[ironman]

Simply idiotic!, this reminds me of one time i was at this vacational resort with my family. We were having a picnic when it started raining, so we took our stuff and went on running to the pool area where there was a roofed coktail area. When we got there, a security guard refused to let us in because we were wet, and there was a sign that read that no wet people were allowed in the area. We got tired (and soaking wet) explaining the guy that the sign was intended for people who were coming from the pool. Long story short, we left the place that same day, angry and amazed by the guard's stupidity. But at last, the club mantained it's "traditions and rules"

[raeanna74]

Originally posted by brian1975
the school caved and the guy and his dog can attend classes. heard on the news.

This is good to hear. Even if the blind guy wanted to teach the dog new commands he couldn't do it himself. Training a seeing-eye dog takes a sighted person because the slightest error on the dogs part and he could be taking the blind man across an open manhole or under a ladder. It's not safe. The school should have been willing to at least pay for the training since that what would be been necessary. They took the simpler route and I'm glad to see they listened to the objections. Hopefully they'll learn how to better accomodate those with special needs.