Is there such a thing as "random"?

[analog]

Is anything random? I'm not talking about Matrix bullshit, predestination, I mean the real thing. Is there such a thing as truly "random"?

[GakFace]

If you want my example go read my 50 minute long debate with analog from #TFP chat logs.

[juanvaldes]

no.

humans have a disposition to arbitrarily pick "favorite" numbers. And it is impossible to build a machine that is truly random.

[Bivens]

"Random number generation is too important to be left to chance."

[wilbjammin]

flip a coin:

The result is heads or tails, and unless you're cheating, the result is random.

Of course, that is in a controlled set.

I couldn't tell you how random the universe, life, etc really is... it is not the same as a controlled set.

[The_Dude]

Originally posted by wilbjammin
flip a coin:

The result is heads or tails, and unless you're cheating, the result is random.

Of course, that is in a controlled set.

I couldn't tell you how random the universe, life, etc really is... it is not the same as a controlled set.

I bet it can be predicted if you analize the flipping angle, the force of the flip, air resistance, etc....

I dont think anything is truely random.

great thread btw

Every decision or occurance is already pre-determined by the Soul, i.e. Who We Truly Are. The soul makes the choice- sometimes we consciously make the choice, sometimes subconsciously- as in, we didn't really think we made the choice of picking a winning lotto ticket or getting terribly ill. All happens for a reason. No randomness about it. The hard thing people have to do is look at why that choice was made, expecially if you consciously didn't want/expect something to happen. Sometimes you can't see the reason right away- usually its seen in the outcome of it all.
As my previous sig went- "You already made the choice. You are here now to see why you made that choice."- Oracle, Matrix Reloaded.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by The_Dude
I bet it can be predicted if you analize the flipping angle, the force of the flip, air resistance, etc....

… and by the time you analyzed all the potential data, you'd find that it is impossible for the human hand to flip a fair coin accurately enough consistently to make it disobey probability (ie 50% heads over an infinite number of flips).

You can make a machine do it, but the margin needed for a particular result would be so small as to be less than errors in measurements, thus it would likely still appear random. (If anyone wishes to construct a machine to test this hypothesis, I'll chip in a few bucks for science.)

[The_Dude]

Originally posted by :::OshnSoul:::
Every decision or occurance is already pre-determined by the Soul, i.e. Who We Truly Are. The soul makes the choice- sometimes we consciously make the choice, sometimes subconsciously- as in, we didn't really think we made the choice of picking a winning lotto ticket or getting terribly ill. All happens for a reason. No randomness about it. The hard thing people have to do is look at why that choice was made, expecially if you consciously didn't want/expect something to happen. Sometimes you can't see the reason right away- usually its seen in the outcome of it all.
As my previous sig went- "You already made the choice. You are here now to see why you made that choice."- Oracle, Matrix Reloaded.

yeah, isnt that predestination?

as for the coin, it will appear random, but if we went to the minutest detaill, we'll be able to predict it.

[analog]

I even put it in the second sentence on the topic post... PLEASE don't push this in the direction of a predestination debate. It's about whether or not ANYTHING can be totally random.

Thanks!

[wilbjammin]

Originally posted by The_Dude
yeah, isnt that predestination?

as for the coin, it will appear random, but if we went to the minutest detaill, we'll be able to predict it.

What makes it random is taking away the minute control over the outcome and not having the monitoring devices to predict it.

I guess random then, is truly measured by what you know or can know. Even the seemingly most random event, a coin-toss, could be reduced to an easily predictable event. And there is a lot unknown still about what can and cannot be known eventually...

I don't really have answers; I just have scenarios.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by The_Dude
as for the coin, it will appear random, but if we went to the minutest detaill, we'll be able to predict it.

In a mathematical model, yes. In real life, measurement errors would be overwhelm the precision needed to rig a fair coin toss or a fair die roll.

Reality is too big by several dozen orders of magnitude for determination (or even pre-destination) to exist on a micro-scale (one individual's actions). Randomness not only exists in reality, it rules reality with an iron fist.

Example? Predict the weather on March 4 (one month from now) given the current conditions.

Even if you had every possible measurement from all over the globe measured to a hyper-fine precision, you still could only produce a probability chart of the possible outcomes even that near in the future.

Why do meteorologist stop measuring at 1/10 of a degree? Because the expense of more-precise thermometers (eg, 1/100 degree precision) adds nothing to the accuracy of forecasts; the money is better spent on more measurements than better measurements because more datapoints contributes far more to good forecasts than does precise datapoints.

In order to have an accurate prediction, you'd have to have a planet with a perfectly regular surface covered in nothing but weatherstations and the planet orbiting a perfectly predictable star. On Earth, these are impossible to achieve, and thus randomness rules.

[analog]

PorscheBunny: You say yourself that there are far too many details for us to be able to accurately predict the weather- so this is not random, it is merely outside our ability to understand or calculate. That doesn't make it random. There are billions of things that COULD happen, but they happen for a reason- because the right combination of elements caused it to happen.

[Sleepyjack]

My thought processes/connotations are pretty random

ran·dom ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rndm)
adj.
1) Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective: random movements. See Synonyms at chance.

2)Mathematics & Statistics. Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.

3)Of or relating to an event in which all outcomes are equally likely, as in the testing of a blood sample for the presence of a substance.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=random

Isn't chaos theory sorta tied in here?

[theguyondacouch]

I voted yes, but as soon a i pressed the button i wanted to press no. Because really, if you think aboot it everything is caused by somethng else. Doesn't matter what it is. Your penny fell off the desk because it was balanced on th edge and your fart vibrated it free. There is nothing I can think of that is random.

[Nisses]

the fact that we can only start predicting after something has happened, makes randomness exist as a real thing.

ooh, aurora borealis... how'd that happen? Well, there was unusual activity... because of a solar flare, because of a current in the sun, because of ... and so on.

We can predict things we've seen, so long as they manifest themselves in exactly the same way. That's the basis of science. But science hits a wall when you go back way too much.

So we can explain why something happened up to a certain level, after that we don't know anymore. That's where randomness started really, after that 'wall'. It's exactly that which we cannot understand with science.

here's something truly random: a piece of ash. Used to be wood, used to be a tree. Why is it ash? Lightning struck. Why did lightning strike there? tension in the airlevels, and good guidance from the tree. Why good guidance from the tree? because it contains water and minerals and sticks out. So why does it contain water and minerals? and why do they guide the lightning? for that matter, why does tension build up in clouds? Well, a number of things...

as you see, you get more and more questions, which are all perfectly solvable. I'm sure if you went back far enough, you'd get to the beginning of the universe or way below atomic level. And then what? They're still debating what happened before that.

randomness is the seed of reality. Our reality is just a specific set of things that exist in total randomness.

[erion]

Nothing happens by coincidence. I've seen too much freaky stuff that is all tied together by common threads to believe otherwise.

[matthew330]

how about whatever happens to come out of the mouth of someone suffering from Terret's (sp?).

[Mr.Deflok]

Watch the film Pi.

With enough time everything has a pattern.

[skysooner]

There is a theory that there is organization in randomness. There are some things that aren't truly random (i.e. the way people treat each other is usually determined by a variety of factors but is generally explainable), but there are many things that are random. I always think after I have had a car accident or close call that if I had left the house 10 seconds earlier or later it never would have happened. Unless someone is trying to hit me, then this would seemingly be a truly random event.

[ChrisJericho]

People label things random when they're too lazy to find out what caused them.

Originally posted by ChrisJericho
People label things random when they're too lazy to find out what caused them.

lol, I guess that's one way of putting it!

[Fibrosa]

Originally posted by analog
Is anything random? I'm not talking about Matrix bullshit, predestination, I mean the real thing. Is there such a thing as truly "random"?

Yes, quantum physics.

[jwells777]

Originally posted by analog
Is anything random? I'm not talking about Matrix bullshit, predestination, I mean the real thing. Is there such a thing as truly "random"?

I believe that more than one fellow has gotten extremely rich by figuring how to predict what others thought were random events (research early pseudo-random number generators and the lottery or vegas). I an not sure whether anything is truly random or whether we simply lack the ability to measure and analyze the requisite data. My guess is that we might see at least uncertain behavior at a quantum level which is sort of like randomness (i.e. the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle).

In addition to tying into chaos theory, generation of random numbers is critical to cryptography and I would imagine that if you studied some of the seminal works in cryptography you might learn a thing or two about randomness.

So I guess my conclusion is that it depends on your definition of randomness. If you include the caveat that there is a certain lack of information presented to the predictor, then yes, there is randomness. This is what probability theory is predicated upon. Given complete information and the theory to analyze it, maybe not.

[ShaniFaye]

a woman gets preggie, in normal sexual egg fertilization wouldnt the determination of the sex of the child be random?

[taylorspl]

I am random and so is my thought process.

[aarchaon]

Nothing can be truly random, eventually things repeat themselves. There is a finite number of atoms and subatomic particles in the universe, and they all follow a set of rules. There is only a certain amount of movements that these atoms can make before they start to repeat themselves. Of course this is a staggering number, way out of human comprehension.

Edit: Hope that made sense

[MadMartigan]

Went to Vegas. Took $5 in dollar coins down to the casino. Went to 3 different slot machines. first 2, nothing. Last 1, i dropped 2 dollars into it and won $320. Was it my turn? If the last person at that machine had played one more time would he/she have won it? No. It was the computer. It just happened, did not have too, but i was sure as hell glad it did! made my entire trip a great one.

[jwells777]

Originally posted by MadMartigan
Went to Vegas. Took $5 in dollar coins down to the casino. Went to 3 different slot machines. first 2, nothing. Last 1, i dropped 2 dollars into it and won $320. Was it my turn? If the last person at that machine had played one more time would he/she have won it? No. It was the computer. It just happened, did not have too, but i was sure as hell glad it did! made my entire trip a great one.

Now this is an example of something that most certainly was not random. Although it might seem like it was, ultimately, that computer used a pseudo-random number generator which if you could crack, you would figure out exactly when it will pay out. Generating truly random numbers on a computer chip is a very difficult thing to do.

[analog]

Originally posted by ShaniFaye
a woman gets preggie, in normal sexual egg fertilization wouldnt the determination of the sex of the child be random?

Actually, the male passes that information along in the sperm. There are many factors that contribute to which sperm will get the egg, and therefore not random. Most simply, we already know that the stronger sperm will dominate, so right there it takes out the chance of being just any sperm.

Originally posted by matthew330
how about whatever happens to come out of the mouth of someone suffering from Terret's (sp?).

Tourette's. Everything that happens in the human body is caused by chemical balances and electrical impulses in the brain. If the right shit is fucked up, it will cause a synapse to misfire and a seemingly "random" sound or tick, etc., to become seen. It all has to do with the brain, and there's nothing random about chemicals and their interactions.

[Go_AVS]

the lottery...

with all the freaks that win it, it must be random

[ShaniFaye]

Originally posted by analog
Actually, the male passes that information along in the sperm. There are many factors that contribute to which sperm will get the egg, and therefore not random. Most simply, we already know that the stronger sperm will dominate, so right there it takes out the chance of being just any sperm.

yes I agree with which sperm gets there, the randomness is if that sperm is carrying the x or y chromosome that determines the sex of the child..in the natural way there is no way to choose that

[CSflim]

The correct answer:

If physics is deterministic (non-random) then everything in the world is deterministic.
Think of a computer. Everything on that is following strict deterministic rules (by definition). We can observe things on the computer that appear to be random...e.g. card games, etc.
These things are not random. They are pseudo-random. A very unpredictable algorithm is used to generate this apparent randomness. Our inability to predict things does not make them random. Deterministic physical laws imply no real randomness.

But are the laws of physics actually deterministic? The current scientific attitude is that they are not, and that randomness is in fact inherrent in the quantum mechanical laws of reality. Some dispute this and claim that this apparent randomness is only pseudo randomness, and that the randomness results only from our inability to measure all the required variables.

So the answer to your question "is there randomness?" is: That depends on whether quantum randomness is real randomness or apparent randomness.

[hotzot]

don't wanna! how's that for random?

[VitaminH]

I have a tendancy to blurt out random silly things at random times. Sometimes I don't know I am going to do it until the words are on my tounge. But I'm sure it's coming from somewhere in my sub-conscious.

I like mashed potatos.

See?

[nothingx]

No.

Nothing is random.

Random is a word we, as humans, use to describe the outcome of circumstance which we do not fully comprehend. As suggested above, if you were to measure and analyze every single atom in a flipping coin you would be able to say precisely what the outcome is. Most often, we don't do this, so the outcome is said to be random.

This is more of a philosophical response, but for those of you interested in physics, I suggest you read up on chaos theory and quantum mechanics.

[meembo]

yes!

I think that an examination of probabilities reveals that we have a very high probablility of predicting things familiar to us, but there isn't an absolute of anything we experience. I don't think human beings could exist in a world without random events. Our nature is to pursue that which we don't understand, and to attempt to bring order to it's understanding -- but we never quite get there, and that in and of itself is randomness, the inability to predict outcomes of our human experience.

[meembo]

Originally posted by nothingx


This is more of a philosophical response, but for those of you interested in physics, I suggest you read up on chaos theory and quantum mechanics.

My "understanding" of quantum mechanics (HA!) is that different dimensions theoretically operate with different physical laws, as we understand them. For instance, the electron orbiting the nucleus of an atom is never at one discrete spot (like the moon around the earth), but is theoretically everywhere around the nucleus at once -- it's position entirely random. The understanding of that kind of phenomena entirely depends on random behavior

[sprocket]

Originally posted by PorscheBunny
… and by the time you analyzed all the potential data, you'd find that it is impossible for the human hand to flip a fair coin accurately enough consistently to make it disobey probability (ie 50% heads over an infinite number of flips).

Yes, but the result of the flip is still not "random". The coin and our hand are still subject to the laws of physics. On a superficial and practical level randomness exists. But if there were a computer that could calculate all the human/enviromental factors involved in that coin flip, the results probably wouldnt be random. But for all practical purposes it is.

[phaedrus]

Random is a term used to describe that which we either do not or cannot know the outcome because we do not or cannot know all of the factors influencing the outcome. So yes, random does exist, but it is not the result of chance but the result of ignorance.